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Simbin Outlines New Conversion Guidelines

Simbin has outlined new guidelines regarding conversions of their content to other titles.

Following up the company’s request to the German Modding Team, asking them to terminate all work on the Nürburgring Nordschleife for rFactor 2, Simbin has outlined new guidelines when it comes to conversions of their work in a letter to the community.

In a nutshell, converting content from older to younger Simbin titles remains allowed, provided that a DVD check for the specific content is in place.

The new rules however specifically rule out any content conversion to titles that have not been created by Simbin, such as the Nordschleife which was on its way into rFactor 2.

You can find the full letter from Simbin below:

As you may have read else where, we have requested certain mod teams to hold off and stop work on their projects. This is not something we decided in the spur of the moment, we have been doing this on occasion in the past. 

We do feel the need to do this more actively since it has become clear that condoning cross game/platform conversions with a CD-Check has proven to be easily circumvented and therefor rendered useless as a solution. Another concerning trend is that more and more often on popular forums it is acceptable to release these cross platform conversions without checks. And on the other hand forums that respect the written and unwritten rules are having a difficult time maintaining the peace.

Everyday new people come into our corner of the gaming universe, where they can easily find sites with downloads (with or mostly without cd check) and start playing these “mods”, having no idea where that content comes from, which in our opinion is bad path to walk on…….This does not only affect us, but every development studio in our sim-racing corner.

Having discussed this with members of our dev team we decided to write an open “note” to the community and developers, explaining why we do what we do, in the hope we can get the ball rolling on running a clean community when it comes down to “illegal” mods.

As always your thoughts and comments are welcome!

Best regards,

Jay Ekkel

Licensing Manager – SimBin Studios

An open note from SimBin to the sim-racing modding community:

Hello Community members,

At SimBin we are always very enthusiastic when we see new mods arrive for our games or for other games. In the last few months we have seen some very talented people picking up on new game arrivals like rF2 & AC and are starting to produce some stellar looking content for their mods. And as many of you, we all drive a wide range of (sim) racing games and we are always on the look out for that one mod or that one track update for a game.

Modding is where quite a few of our developers have their roots and they still enjoy a side project every now and then! For us modding is improving existing content from an original game, or building something spectacular from the ground up.

But more and more often we start to see a new way of “modding”

Cross game/platform conversions

Original content from SimBin games like GTR, GTR2 and the RACE series is finding its way to games like rFactor, rFactor2 and maybe in the future to games like pCars and Assetto Corsa.  We have had a long period where we condoned these mods when a DVD check was used, so people could be authenticated to owning the content. Sadly enough this method has been proven very easy to circumvent.

We therefore call out to you, the modding community to stop converting original game content from a SimBin game to any other platform. Or the other way around!! And let us all agree on a golden rule that original content from any game, stays within that game. If you feel like modding original content, keep it within the game it was build for or at minimum the same developer atmosphere.

We would like to try and make a stop to these conversions as they do not belong in any other game than their own. 

We therefore ask you to look up at the many great talents in our community that create new cars and tracks from the ground up, these people put a great amount of time and effort into their work, that can only be praised. We believe that is where the skill is, that is where respect is earned.  There are many talented people around that can create content for many years to come, and if you cant wait for that one bit of content you really want. Start your own project, its a great skill to have and who knows where it might bring you in the future!

We hope that this call to stop these conversions is picked up by the community leaders and owners, league owners and other developers to run a tight ship in their neighbourhood.

– No more cross game conversion, including conversion with a DVD check

– Upgrading and modifying existing game files in the original game is allowed

– Converting content from older SimBin games, to newer SimBin games is allowed, but only with the DVD check.

– Converting content from a SimBin game to any other game not produced by SimBin is not allowed

– Converting content from any game any other competitive game should not be allowed

– Creating new content from the ground up will be praised

Lets maintain a clean community!

Your thoughts and ideas are welcome in the comments!

Best regards,

The SimBin Dev Team

  • Anonymous

    Don’t shoot yourselves in the foot guys we think very highly of our modding community. Is the fact people are doing these types of conversions gonna make or break you as a company? No. Combatting the mod community might however

    • Anonymous

      I don’t think protecting the content they have made (and licensed, properly) is going to hurt them. If they can’t get licensing deals in the future because of mods like this though, it may affect their ability to do this.

    • Anonymous

      Less of the “we” cheers and more of the “IMO or I”. People like you do not speak for me and i don’t agree with your opinion the majority of the time and even more so here. Simbin have every right to do so.

      • Realkman666

        Whose opinion is it going to be if he’s the one stating something?

      • Anonymous

        That’s the point, he presumptuously said “we think” rather than just giving his personal opinion.

      • Realkman666

        So? It’s not because someone says something that it includes you.

      • Anonymous

        Because it’s an attempt to use groupthink and appeals to authority to make an argument. It doesn’t improve the discussion.

        Why not just say you regard the modding community highly and let the count of ‘likes’ on your comment speak for the community agreement?

      • Realkman666

        That’s what it looks like to me. Why do you want to see an IMO simpleton badge?

      • Anonymous

        What you said, “we think”, is not the same as “IMO”. The opposite, actually.

      • Realkman666

        That was Birddogg.

      • Anonymous

        Sorry, too many 6’s… 😉

      • Realkman666

        :p

      • Anonymous

        Well I think the majority thinks highly of the modding community which would suggest “We” so I don’t think I am alone with my opinion. I did not say all of us feel and did not make the whole community inclusive.

      • Anonymous

        I agree they have every right to do so and I think very highly of Simbin as well as the modding community. This is just happening at the wrong time IMO with the news of SRW having troubles with their FTP platform and the fact Simbin’s is similar and are maybe unjustifiably getting backlash from the SRW ordeal and how people feel about FTPs in general. Also is a fact that going against the modding community can have a negative impact as well. I believe that GMT tried to be respectful of Simbin by including a mandatory DVD check and are not just some hacks that don’t give a damn. Sadly I agree they did not go far enough with getting permissions but with respects to both Simbin could have allowed this one and then outlined the fact that they will not allow anymore in the future and I think the people who see disallowing the conversion as negative would have respected it a bit more.

      • Anonymous

        Anyway if you ever get to America look me up I’ll buy ya a drink right now your just talking to a computer screen.

    • Peter Koch

      They can rip pCars version, let them be the hero of the sim community. After all it’s a community based sim, they don’t mind.

  • http://www.bsimracing.com/ Wim

    A very clean and professional explanation IMO. I know for sure SimBin cares, about the modding community, but they have to defend their products. I think also GMT recognizes that. They where only enthusiastic, so no harm done.

    • Jay Ekkel

      GMT has been very understanding with our position on this, and I would like to thank them for that!

      • Paul

        The GMT project has been ongoing for some time now. Plenty of previews have been made available here and at other sites showing the progress of the work. They have been open and honest about what they were doing and clearly felt they were abiding by the rules. Why wait until the project is almost complete before asking them to stop?

        GMT has produced several quality mods for GTR2 and helped to maintain its popularity. It’s a pity you couldn’t give them a break by allowing them to finish this project and then ask them to follow the new rules. I and many others understand why SimBin wants to protect it’s property but the timing of this decision in respect to GMT could have been a lot better.

      • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

        I can’t help thinking that you’re more bothered about not getting the Nordshliefe for rF2 than you are the timing towards GMT.

      • Steven Ciofalo

        Paul is right. You know something is coming.. You see peoples excitement build for its release and then you decide when the project is 95% complete to all the sudden change your policy.. They could have killed it from the start and not have all of us willing to riot over it..

        I am btw willing to start a few structure fires to get the ring in rF2.

      • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

        The timing for GMT was pretty bad for sure. But they are still within their right to stop conversions of their own assets to other products.

        I’m sure we`ll get a version of the Nords in rf2 at some time and without stepping on anyone’s toes.

      • Olaraitraitrai

        Paul is right… He might be worried about not geting the Nords for his rF2 copy but… he is right… the timing is not the perfect one.

        This is only valid if GMT did show any previews of Nords in the past… I don’t know about that, and maybe SimBin doesn’t know about that too.

        However I do respect SimBin possition but this might not be the right move for them…

      • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

        It’s the right move for them but not good timing for GMT. No-one is disputing that I don’t think.

      • Paul

        I don’t own rF2. I’m a fan of GMT and respect them for their work released for GTR2, so I was keen to see what they did next. I’ve been following this project and I’m disappointed at the timing of this decision. GMT are a decent modding group and I think they should have been notified earlier so they wouldn’t have wasted any more time with it.

        I just thought the timing was poor, that’s all.

      • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

        I agree the timing for GMT is not ideal but only Simbin can answer why they decided this now. Obviously to stop Nords from being released and this is the first I’ve heard of it’s development when the news was posted a few days ago. Maybe it was the first Simbin heard of it too. I dunno.

  • Big Ron

    I don´t see why they shoot in the foot theirself. It´s their right to demand their content remains in their gaming environment.

    I am not sure why every modding team is used to use SimBin´s Nordschleife as basic model to start a conversion. Why not taking Com8´s (scratch made?) version and rebuild it to actual standards. Might be the safer way.

    • Jay Ekkel

      When I spoke to GMT I have advised them to do the same, Com8’s version of the nordschleife is top notch. And knowing the guy myself, he probably would have no issues with that at all!

    • Anonymous

      Why not just make a scratch made track full stop. Patience is just needed with these things. Modern sims need to move away from this conversion rubbish IMO. People like Feels, Tuttle and Ales from URD have shown what is possible with rFactor 2, so why not make the most of the new software. Sure it’s going to take time to get the better content but it will be worth it.

      Com8’s version is/was very good in rFactor, i was less convinced in NKP though and i suspect the lower poly count would have issues in rF2. I personally did favour the Simbin version in rFactor.

      • Big Ron

        Agree completely, a full scratch- made content is always worth the most (also from the modder´s perspective since it´s his work from one end to the other).

      • Steven Ciofalo

        If the Targa Florio can appear miraculously out of no-where then the schlief should be a piece of cake-ish.. You have plenty of reference material you can copy.. I mean what are they actually stealing? The road surface? It SHOULD be the same for all versions if it is accurate and frankly placing trees where they need to be and coloring walls EXACTLY like everyone else because the place is real … Color by numbers people

    • http://zerez86.blogspot.com/ zerez86

      It’s so funny that nobody has a clue which version is based on which conversion. Com8’s nordschleife is based on a gpl conversion so it’s not scratch made and I think nobody asked Papyrus for permission btw.

      Just for the upcoming Sim-Racing history book:

      The first conversion I remember was for Sports Car GT maybe 13 years ago. Then Simbin (Modding Group) did a version for F1 2002 which they didn’t finish because they went professional in meantime (and closed their forum – the community universe at that time). I don’t know if the Simbin one was scratch made but it looked quite good (despite being not finished).

      • Big Ron

        Hehe, good point. I agree, it´s pretty confusing and nobody really knows where which conversion/ mod is coming from.

      • Anonymous

        Which lends some weight to Simbin’s stance that conversions aren’t mutually beneficial.

        I find it a bit ironic that instead of requesting “build a new NS from scratch”, it’s “hey, convert this other version originally from a competitor’s product instead”.

      • M1GHTY M4VS

        Not essentially, what if you at Simbin would follow another way and would want it to be used in a modern environment that you cannot do anymore such as Papyrus, they were abandoned by the time the conversion was in place but the Com8 Version as you said previously has been put to great use for anybody.
        Still I’m sure I’ll still Play GTR2 in 2026, 20 years after Release just because I admire the Work and Modding.
        I am not sure other more recent Software deserves that amount of attention because It lacks dedication and soul.
        In fact Com8 started a Scratch Version of the NoS before heading to yours but didn’t put more effort in it because he didn’t feel comfortable in doing so and hasn’t have the same backround of Laser Scanning possible, something that he now has changed by assisting you at Simbin.
        CoIncendential that would make another modding group to a business rival, would you want that by seeing how crowded especially the PC scene is right now, I doubt you would want another competetion product as you fared much better when you were atop of the scene with less elbows out.
        In fact I’d rather see just 4-5 studios making proper stuff instead of the 10-12 that make themselves karaoke copy madness and imply of remaking the same stuff over again.
        See If I look at the scene right now there has to be more originalty instead of scratch stuff of course that doesn’t conclude that taking stuff from one game to another is essentially bad but the way it happens might not be suited.
        Anyone can open up a forum and do what they want with it but there could be some sort of trustworthiness within who works on what and how it develops in approved modding teams that now seem to be in charge to develop a more trusted way of bring something to the trusted and approved people.
        If CD/DVD Checks aren’t the way, then let’s get it a Thumb Stamp, Identity Car Check or Business E-Mail Verification to see who owns what legally and is allowed to use it. Now these only come for future release but to me they’re the only way, except if you tend to reach your Thumb around, I don’t see this happen often.

    • Anonymous

      My point of shooting self in foot comes from the divided reactions from the community and how Simbin might be looked upon for doing this at this point in time to a mod team that is thought of pretty highly to many in the community. Their newest project has been fairly controversial thus far with a lot of mixed feelings and now this having a lot of mixed feelings. I just don’t think this is helping their cause at this moment in time and you know me well enough to know that I think very highly of Simbin and have been one of their biggest supporters for quite a long time now and own all of their pre R3E PC based material. As others have said and mentioned the situation with SRW and the type of FTP platform it’s based on not doing very well now see a risk to the R3E platform with it’s similar structure. Probably the reason I have not bought any of the material for R3E is because of my experience with SRW and iRacing. I am sorry Simbin had to get the short end of the stick you can thank those other development teams for this. I for one wish Simbin the best of success but alienating a part of the community is not helping IMO.

  • Paul Todd

    Your thoughts and ideas are welcome in the comments?

    Ok what happened to your quality products? raceroom reminds me of grid 2 with better physics.

    You guys went away from trying to prefect realism and tried to control the sim racing community in what they do with your product. from the glory days of GTR2 when you used to make an effort into making a quality sim you now create poor versions of cars and tracks charge separate prices for them and it feels like sim raceway all over again. I mean look at the tracks the fans wave flags the size of houses and also the meter boards are crazy big!

    The frustrating thing about all this is how well you did with all your other products the potential that you had to improve with the stillborn GTR3 would of been sublime.

    • gt3rsr

      In which way does Simbin try to control the sim racing community? I do agree with the R3E sentiment though…

      • Paul Todd

        Maybe I should of worded that better.

        This is my view on the matter. I understand that these people spend a huge amount of time working on sim racing titles and after the release of a title they still need income I fully get that and i’m willing to support a title in the way of the rfactor 2 format. So they need a business model to keep money coming in.

        But the worst way to go about this is branding your title as a free to play when in reality you have to spend a truck load of money to get any joy out of it at all. When you start pricing it up you can spend way to much.

        For me (a long time simbin fan) I feel they are trying to control you in a sense that you can buy a car but you can’t join in on a championship because you don’t have all the tracks so your pushed into buying a couple of extra tracks to keep your product up to date.

      • Anonymous

        Works for iRacing, doesn’t it? ::troll_face::

      • Paul Todd

        That’s why I don’t buy into it. You know how sim bin did it with the race 07 addons that’s a good way of doing it

  • Anonymous

    “Another concerning trend is that more and more often on popular
    forums it is acceptable to release these cross platform conversions
    without checks. And on the other hand forums that respect the written
    and unwritten rules are having a difficult time maintaining the peace.”

    Thanks a lot, pirates. This is why we can’t have nice things.

    Don’t blame Simbin, blame the jerks who forced their hand.

    • Realkman666

      What about those who use the content?

      • Anonymous

        Blame the pirates for taking advantage of it, and those who didn’t shun the pirates out of the community which allowed such circumvention to become acceptable.

    • Anonymous

      The responsibility for their decision rests with SimBin. There will always be piracy and some forums are never going to have enforcement of guidelines. We have had similar situations in our team where members were unhappy about unauthorized conversions that popped up on certain forums. There’s a particularly notorious forum. Nobody, on our team or elsewhere, should be surprised though when content ends up there. We can’t police everywhere and controlling every last torrent tracker is impossible in any case.

      Also, disallowing conversions to other sims with DVD checks because those have become ineffectual (no surprise there) while also still allowing conversions to their own younger sims is logically inconsistent. If a DVD check is ineffectual for a third party simulation, it’s just as ineffectual for their younger sims. I’m thinking they might have made the decision regardless of such facts and are just looking to justify the decision.

      Funny thing is, I think it’s perfectly fine for them to say “please don’t convert”. I do not think their justification holds water though and I would have preferred honesty from them and to stand by their own decision rather than trying to shift the responsibility.

      • Anonymous

        Keeping it in-house doesn’t seem inconsistent to me. If someone’s going to use the copied content, it might as well be in a Simbin game that makes their ecosystem more appealing. That at least increases their visibility, rather than someone picking up a track mod in rF and having no idea where it was sourced if they wanted to support the original creators.

        I wouldn’t call it shifting responsibility. I think it’s more like acknowledging the dev/community relationship isn’t working out and they’re choosing not to participate anymore if it can’t be healthy and mutually beneficial.

    • bduddy

      But Simbin saying this doesn’t affect the pirates and renegade forums/sites at all, it only affects the honest ones. This is a pretty weak justification…

      • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

        The honest ones should be the only ones to get the respect.

    • Anonymous

      Well don’t use that term too loosely GMT are good guys and not hacks. I think it was more of an assumption on GMT’s part that if they required a DVD check Simbin would be okay with it. Sadly this is not the case. Also I have seen enough content that has been converted with permission usually if it is made clear who is the creator of the content to begin with. So I am fully aware there are opinions on both sides of the modding concept and I accept that.

      • Anonymous

        I didn’t say GMT did anything wrong. Quite the opposite, it’s the users who would invariably circumvent the DVD check that ruin it for the responsible modders and users.

  • Anonymous

    Ok, Simbin listen this:
    I was a huge fan of your work. For me GTR evo was the best, I used it so much time and it was fantastic. Then you started to sell thousands of dlc with cars that drove always the same, cars without any character, ignoring the core of the simulation, the physics engine. I was young and blind, so I bought everything you released for race07.

    Now, I’m not interested at all in this loyal BS, simbin vs modders, simbin vs the entire world, I want to read something where SimBin talks about dynamic weather, dynamic track conditions, multiplayer, day to night transition and all this stuff.

    You have to move and demonstrate that you want to be in pair with AC, iR and the others, instead of release tracks with circus atmosphere and joypad for casual gamers! I mean, seriously? Also a joypad?

    Otherwise you will fail. I’m sorry, but I don’t have enough money to support someone who doesn’t know what to be: arcade game? sim? hot lapping competition? multiplayer? single player?

    I hope you will not end like SRW.

    • C4

      Ridge Racer 3 is a hotlapping competition as far as I know.

      ? I think they should rather work on a RACE like sim, and leave RRRE as it is (adding content and game modes of course, but keep it around accessable online competition) – would look like a good strategy to me.

  • Walter

    What Simbin are doing smacks of desperation to me.

    Rightly or wrongly, forcing a modding group to abandon a project will do nothing but p*ss a lot of modders and sim racers off especially given that their latest offering seems to be losing peoples interest and sinking at an alarming rate.

    It’s about time Simbin got back to basics, basics which they once excelled at .

    • Realkman666

      Their work, their decision. Simple as that. Now they just have to reconsider R3E, because that’s been quite the blunder.

  • Realkman666

    Best decision they’ve made in a long time.

  • http://www.bsimracing.com/ Wim

    In my opinion a crazy discussion ones more when i read some of the comments. If i own a new car, and my neighbor decides to put it in his garage to promote it as his own, without my consent, we would all call it a no brainer. Yet for some reason, allot in here seem to see it different. Common people… it can not be that 50% of us sim racers are plain stupid?

    It can not be hard to understand. “LICENSE” a permit from an authority to own or use something, do a particular thing, or carry on a trade. Last time i looked, the vitual track we talk about was licensed, build and owned by Simbin. What is so hard to understand in that? I am sure about the good intentions that GMT had, but there was a time when modders called this a plain RIP. So in my opinion things have been handled pretty good by SimBin. The day somebody rips something out of iRacing, or Pcars, i am sure it wont be this easy.

    • Realkman666

      Your analogy doesn’t work because it’s not taking anything away from the original game.

      • http://www.bsimracing.com/ Wim

        A very stupid answer Realkman! If i own two cars, it does not take away my mobility when one is used without my permission, but it does not make it legit!

      • Realkman666

        There’s only one car. Get a better brain.

      • http://www.bsimracing.com/ Wim

        ow man, you prove my point. Its like your commenting for the sake of it. it cant be that hard to have a discussion, instead of these pointless remarks.

      • Realkman666

        Instead of insulting me, scroll down and you’ll understand better.

      • Marco Hooghuis

        The analogy works if the car is copied a million times. Then the one car that stays behind as the original makes little to no difference.

      • Big Ron

        It´s not taking away anything from the original game, but the other game adorns itself with content it doesn´t have any permission for and was created by someone else.

      • Realkman666

        That’s still not the same as stealing a car.

      • Big Ron

        Of course it is, it´s like you are driving around with the car of your neighbour without his permission. By law that´s stealing.

      • Realkman666

        The mods don’t remove the track from the original game.

      • Big Ron

        That´s no argument.

      • Realkman666

        I just think it’s worth making the distinction.

      • Big Ron

        Yes, it´s worth making distinctions. But the topic is pretty clear and the behavior of both sides deserves a lot of respect. The one asks for a stop and the other stopped it without moaning. That´s how it always should work.

      • Realkman666

        Most people seem to agree on that so far, but I don’t stand for misleading notions. I value accuracy and honesty.

      • Anonymous

        Don’t torture the analogy. If you must, consider it a picture he took of your car and posted on the internet. And if you’re desperate, pretend you both own detailing shops and he uses a picture of a car you detailed to advertise his own shop.

        Or, you know, just ignore the analogy.

      • Realkman666

        I am not desperate, but you seem to be. It’s not just advertisement if they are actually offering what they advertise.

        You can dislike something without twisting what it is and misrepresenting it.

  • Marco Hooghuis

    Just as a reminder to put things into perspective, Simbin themselves started out as a modding group. They know what modding is about, the only difference is they turned professional.
    It’s nice of them to provide guidelines and actually allowing some conversions. You don’t get that from every company.

    • Realkman666

      I didn’t know they were modders. For what titles?

      • Marco Hooghuis

        They created GTR2002 for F1C.

      • Realkman666

        Whooooa. I was on PS1 at the time. Cool to see what they’ve become.

      • Marco Hooghuis

        F1C was on PS2 and PC IIRC. I don’t have to tell you for what platform the mod was released 😉

      • Realkman666

        Oops, PS2.

      • http://www.bsimracing.com/ Wim

        FIA ​​GT 2002 mod for F1 2002 the game.

      • Anonymous

        Well…that’s a complicated subject.

        The people behind that modding effort are, for the most part, not those running Simbin these days.

        Not that I’m saying that Simbin’s staff does not have modding roots, they very much do and it is great to see people like Com8 or 6e66o being employed by them.

        The core team that was responsible for that mod though is now running another studio you might now… 🙂

      • Realkman666

        A studio with a project…

      • Alex White

        About CARS! 😛

      • Realkman666

        :p

      • Marco Hooghuis

        SMS?

      • Anonymous

        Yes 🙂

      • http://www.bsimracing.com/ Wim

        I know 😉 but the heritage is still there.

      • Anonymous

        does that include EMAC and Ralph? The F1C legends………. And what about Tantra his tracks were amazing for F1C

      • Anonymous

        Yep, Ralph’s still with SMS.

    • Anonymous

      Different Simbin team the guys you are thinking of are now SMS and created the GTR series

      • Marco Hooghuis

        And those who are now in Simbin were modders as well. I wanted to show people they do give a damn.

      • Anonymous

        Well the worst thing Simbin has done in the past is try to deny Ian’s Simbin team the credit it deserves for being the original creators of GTR mods and Simbin’s first three titles. Yes there are people still at Simbin who were there at the release of GTR 1. One of the most notable mind you and an extremely class act here running PR in this thread is Jay Ekkel.

  • Mojo66

    So first they say CD checks can be easily circumvented, then later on they insist on them being used. Oh well, someone seems to have put a lot of thought into this…

    • Jay Ekkel

      yes easily circumvented if you know how, but a simple but fair request from our side to be able to some extend secure people are “allowed” to run the content

    • Sean_S36

      I don’t know why small niche sim racing markets continue to shoot themselves in the pocket, with over reactions to modders , I have all simbin titles but the mods made them what they are and what made me buy the latest. I will no longer purchase simbin games Sorry but your arguments are selfish and petty, and costly to you in the future.I think you made a wrong choice in my honest opinion. Sorry you did that. Good luck, I hope I’m wrong.

  • Anonymous

    Not sure what the fuss is about…SIMBIN has every right to ask content to be removed. I always wondered how they let Historic X get away with cd check…..

    On another note I am confused why SIMBIN is not going back to the roots using ISI engine, Reiza studio made it work with old rf1 engine why can’t SIMBIN do the same. With guys like com8 they could produce true successor to GTR2.

    • Realkman666

      Well, the rF2 engine is not finished, so they couldn’t wait forever, I guess. Maybe for GTR3?

      • Kai

        i just hope SIMBIM will make a lot of money from selling their Nordschleife for R3E to finally develop a propor racing game (GTR3). don’t get me wrong, i enjoy the game but it will never be as immersive as GTL, GTR2 or R07/Evo… so don’t let the community wait forever

  • Chris Wright

    Again perfectly fair. As I said elsewhere, this is only a problem because ISI didn’t bother to do a Nordschleife which is, let’s face it, a prerequisite.

  • Olivier Prenten

    As long as the project originator is mentioned in the credits I don’t see the problem! It’s an added value and a fair publicity!

    • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

      Well it still is a problem. I mean I can’t rip off a movie and it’s all ok if I put “Thanks to Warner Bros for the original” as credit on it..

      • Anonymous

        That doesn’t stop people from trying, though.

        That’s my favorite YouTube video description: “NO INFRINGEMENT INTENDED!”

      • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

        Yeah the torrent sites show that.

        Yeah that comment is as laughable as modders that rip content from games and then say “It is not permitted to alter or use ‘my work’ “

    • Anonymous

      DVD checks may actually sell copies of the game and is as much promoting Simbin as it is using content for a different title. GTR EVO is inexpensive enough to justify buying a copy so to be able to use the converted track.

  • http://iamkittx.blogspot.com/ KittX

    Well, that makes HistorX completely illegal for now. (well, not completely, but mostly – excluding scratch made cars).

    • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

      Well it was ok’d at the time so I don’t think it counts.

      • M1GHTY M4VS

        forza had porsche, had to take it out just to repurchase the license and get it out with a dlc again, there is no mention on what counts actually.

      • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

        How is that relevant ?

      • M1GHTY M4VS

        Well if you took it that content cannot be free of harm just because it came out before the announcement isn’t true, would this now include there are no more updates for HistorX possible due to Simbin not allowing it even if they built up and enhance the content or port it to a more modern engine for example just because of that.
        Let’s say you would want HistorX to make use of Rain or Deformations or Graphical sophistications on a newer FX basis how can you.

      • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

        If HistorX asked for permission at the time and got it then it’s ok. I don’t think this new statement from Simbin affects past releases and I think they`ll tell you that themselves.

        Also adding rain or whatever doesn’t affect Simbin so I think that would be ok too. They just wouldn’t be allowed to add more cars from Simbin and have to add scratch stuff, which I think is what they are doing.

      • Jay Ekkel

        what happened in the past is in the past, we don’t want to start staring blind at all kinds of old mods.

        We want to ask upcoming mod projects and teams, to keep these request in mind while they start/develop their mod.

      • Anonymous

        Porsche was not ‘taken out’ of Forza 4, it was never there in the first place. When they finally did get the license for DLC, the new cars they added were modelled much later than most of the other DLC. Several of the previously featured cars were remodelled (’73 Carrera RS, 930 Turbo, 997 Turbo) and some received an extensive physics rework (962C).

        Your comparison would have been more relevant if Turn10 had to go back and patch the Porsches out of Forza 3, but Forza 4 is a seperate product with its own licenses and content.

      • http://iamkittx.blogspot.com/ KittX

        And no, don’t get me as an attitude like “they screwed my fav mod”
        I tottally understand SimBin’s decision. It’s just sad. Sometimes I catch myself on a thought that when I’m thinking abut HistorX, i remember the smell of vintage cars. 🙂
        Anyhow, I’ve got plans of enhancing my own scratch-made ’81 Corvette for Bryce Canyon appearance, into the working car for HistorX.

    • http://s1.zetaboards.com/SimSkinsByDen/index/ PetrolheadDen

      Well, I can’t say it affects me as I have GT Legends. lol.

  • Ricoo

    Agreed.

    Mods should be made from scratch, otherwise it’s a steal.

    CD check is a joke.

    • Pablo Coronel

      Right, everyone must learn how model, morphology, topology, unwrap, paint textures, rigging, learn animation basics, sample sounds annnd physics.

      Lets mod!!!

  • Anonymous

    The question is, are modders willing to mentor & share their knowledge with new community member’s, that want to learn how to create scratch built content, this is needed badly, and would curb rip off projects, modders point out they need fresh blood, want to be modders need guidance.

    • Big Ron

      One of the problems might be that most modders started as average- Joe spending a massive amount of hours learning how to do it from scratch by training and research, probably not having the energy to play teacher educating others how to do it. While there are a lot of people being able to educate themself, too much want to be educated by others completely.

      • http://iamkittx.blogspot.com/ KittX

        I tend to think that the best knowledge and understanding comes when you look and analyze by yourself.
        Well, I started this way anyways. For software basis – there are tons of vids @ youtube. I learn some things by them occasionally, but the best ideas come from your mind. One of the reasons I adore modelling, is that you can reach the same or similar results by completely different and even unexpected ways.

        I think for sharing that ways, personal blogs are the best.
        I’ll share more of techniques and tricks I use, just need to figure out how to put them into simple articles.

  • Professional Operator

    I’m working on some SimBin content for rFactor I had a future intention to share it but now after this SimBin crying out loud I obviously won’t.

    Anyway this won’t stop me working on that stuff. Because I do it for me and my own enjoyement. It will be my own exclusive mod and you’ll never know about it. That’s it.

    Now back to the point, ok, SimBin called the comunity to a better fair play. Now it’s my turn to ask more fair play, dear SimBin, about RRRE, Race Room Racing Experience:

    Release those bloody templates, let the people paint your cars and stop being lame pretending to sell 1 car with only 1 single bloody livery. And then pretend to sell a Corvette livery, that is really really lame from you. That is NOT what GT Legend, GTR, GTR2, Race 07, GTR Evo and all the expantions where about. Free templates were the norm. You called people out. Now let’s see what you do with RRRE.

    • Anonymous

      I would think “tit for tat” would dictate that they release Nords for RRRE.

      That being said, having an old version of Nords on rF2 does not mean people won’t buy a better version of it for RRRE.

  • Anonymous

    First I have to say I think it is a brave move of Simbin to make a statement about a very delicate topic in our community. They have the right to protect their content and I don’t think it is wrong. But….I do think they make the same mistake as the movie and music industry. Just saying we don’t want this and we are going to fight it is not gonna solve the problem.
    Clearly ppl want to use their content in one way or another. Mostly it is not the fact it is free but if it is available and how easy it is to get the content. Downloading music and movies is/was very populair because it is/was an easy way to get the content the consumer wants. Instead of fighting a allready lost fight they should think about a way to fulfill the need of the community. Great examples are Spotify and Netflix. I am convinced that most of the commmunity would pay for a Simbin version of the Nordschleiffe for rF2. Non ripped mods allready prove that ppl are prepared to pay for it.
    I realise it is more easy said then done. Crossover mulitple platforms with different publishers is complicated. But hey, the big labels and producers seem to have agreed on some point with music and movie content. What I want to say is it would be good for Simbin ISI or SMS to look for a solution to act on what ppl want. The CD-key seems not to have worked but that is just one way to protect your content.

  • http://s1.zetaboards.com/SimSkinsByDen/index/ PetrolheadDen

    So, does this make HistorX “illegal”?

    • Anonymous

      That would really be shooting themselves in the foot if they forced a ban on that.

    • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

      No.

  • David Wright

    “- Converting content from older SimBin games, to newer SimBin games is allowed and vice versa, but only with the DVD check.”

    Assuming Simbin are reading responses, can you confirm this means as before? Converting content from older Simbin games to newer Simbin games doesn’t require a DVD check. Converting content from newer Simbin titles to older Simbin titles does require a DVD check.

    • Jay Ekkel

      We have send an email to VR, because the copy of the letter posted here contained a mistake, which we tried to revert, but it seems not to have found its way to Rob yet.

      The mistake is in the line you highlighted it should say:

      – Converting content from older SimBin games, to newer SimBin games is allowed, but only with the DVD check.

      I hope Rob finds the time soon, to update the article!

      • Anonymous

        Hi Jay

        I received the mail but I was a bit confused and replied back to Marcus who never got back to me.

        Text changed 🙂

      • Jay Ekkel

        Thanks for updating!

        Ill give Marcus a friendly nudge as well 😉

  • Justin Schmidt

    so the evo nords can be converted to race on, volvo-the game & race injection.
    but does simbin have the license to have the ring in those games? if not, they are not in the position to allow this conversion.

    • Anonymous

      There’s no ‘converting’ required to Race On or Race Injection since they’re both just expansions for Race07 like GTR Evo itself is. If you own GTR Evo then the track will show up in all of the other expansions.

    • StarFoxySxv550

      But they didn’t convert, distribute, host or inject it into any title other than the one they created it for. If they did, you can be sure they would have to pay, and do pay.

  • Anonymous

    The thing that gets me about these kinds of situations, is that a company will go to great lengths to shut down people ‘infringing their copyright’, while having no intention of filling that need in the market themselves.

    I don’t blame Simbin for cracking down on people using their content. What I do blame them for is not using their content themselves. If they converted and sold the content themselves for a reasonable price, I’d buy it. The fact that they don’t do this is why volunteers take it upon themselves to fill the need, only to be regarded as criminals for doing so, and that’s a shame.

    • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

      How can people take content from Simbin if they haven’t used it themselves ?
      What content are you expecting them to convert to to/from what ?
      Not sure what you’re saying here.

      • Anonymous

        He’s saying that they need to release a better version of Nords for RRRE rather than just saying that rF2 can’t use a Nords based on something that was once theirs.

        It’s not like rF2 will be long without Nords. It will get it and people will enjoy it. If SimBin wants to not lose money as a result, they need to step up their game before they lose dollars to rF2, AC, pCARS, etc.

      • Anonymous

        Got it in one. 🙂

    • http://www.bsimracing.com/ Wim

      Did i read that correct? So Simbin should convert to ISI platform and sell it, and if they wont do it, it is their own fault that people convert it? I am glad you are not my lawyer .

    • Anonymous

      I read u. I’ve more or less what I said. It’s a shame nobody understands. It is human nature to explore whats out there. And history has proven that ppl will go great lengths to get what they want. It is just stupid to not give the way we suggest o share content a change. I almost only read posts from ppl who act they are as holy as the pope. The only thing that we are saying is u can’t stop human nature esspecially when a course is set. That is not gonna change with a statement by a developer.

    • Jay Ekkel

      What gap…? our tracks and cars are available in our games! If you like to use that content, play it in one of our games.

      If there is a gap of content in rF2, I suggest you “gang up” and try to convince ISI to fill that gap in their games. And if that fails, consider creating your own modgroup that starts dishing out quality content.

      And the latter option, that is what modding is all about!

      • Anonymous

        Well, Jay, thanks for that thoughtful and professional post.

        What I’m trying to say here is that here’s an opportunity for Simbin to make some easy money, but for whatever reason, you choose not to. It just seems a little shortsighted to me, but it’s nothing new in current market thinking, I guess.

        Why not convert highly popular content like the nordschleife to other platforms and sell it for a few bucks? You then not only have your own install base as a market, but your ‘competitor’s’ as well, and a bit of cash coming in while you’re developing your next sim.

        If ISI make a nordschlefe for rF2, then I guess they’ll get my money rather than you guys.

        I have no loyalty to one particular sim. I pretty much buy them all, and I don’t think I’m alone in that. If you think you’re somehow ‘protecting your IP’ , or that I’ll buy your product and not another merely because you’re hoarding a particular track then you’re kidding yourself. I already have bought your nordschleife, and here I am waving money in your face telling you I want to buy it again, and you’re essentially telling me to spend it elsewhere. Smart.

        So, all that being said, can I assume from your insular attitude that Simbin has plans to convert this track to Raceroom?

      • Jay Ekkel

        I think you missed my point there, You blame us for not filling a gap created by ISI in rF2. Rather then asking/requesting pushing ISI to do the Nordschleife, you believeit up to us to fill the gap……

        I do understand your thought process, but IMO it is flawed.

        I hope you see my “issue” with your suggestion. And i dont see that being a narrow minded atitude at all, rather the other way around…

        Besides the above issue, I think you under estimate the investments required to license a track like the Nordschleife for a single project. Most of us need to work a few years to cover the license for that track, it is one of the, if not most, expensive track to license. And that is just for a single project. On top of that comes the immense time to develop the track. And all that effort for a game we have no ties with…..

        Based on that first look It makes little to no (financial) sense to license this track for a game we don’t own ourselves, and thinking about it I am pretty sure it will be a legal nightmare to get it down on paper!

        And to end this post, we have never made a secret of the fact that we aim to have Nordschleife in our game. But the current situation at the track itselve makes it near impossible to get anything done, so lets just wait and see how things pan out on that subject.

        Hope this answers some of your questions. 🙂

  • Slimjim

    So i’m going to assume that nothing will be said if people are converting tracks and cars from other games to Simbin games.?

    • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

      But then they wouldn’t be taking Simbin assets would they ? Simbin can’t really speak for other gaming companies.

    • Ghoults

      It is not simbin’s job to protect the work of other studios.

      • Anthony Birch

        but they wont knock it back either i’ll bet, especially if it enhances their products

  • Matt Orr

    The sad thing is, I picked up all the race stuff (zero interest in touring cars) in one of the steam sales a couple sales ago for like basically a steal. Only legally. lol

    I mean really, the fact people cheat the system when you can get it so cheap makes it sorta sad, honestly. Then again, owning basically every sim since 1998, it’s sort of silly, largely because I know there really isn’t much of a difference between the rFactor engine and the GTR2 engine, so on and so forth. It’s silly artificial delineations. Hell, if I could have GSC in rFactor, I’d have a blast – suddenly the whole package opens up and everything becomes better.

    What a different world of sim racing we have in 2013 than what we had in 2005 when every track except 2 were converted from GPL or Codemasters.

    • Marcus Reynolds

      There is actually quite a few key differences between the GTR2, Race, Rfactor, Rfactor 2 engines in terms of physics…..

      Sim modding has died as I knew it, I thank my lucky stars I managed to partake through the golden days of that era because I doubt we will ever see it the same again tbh.

      • Matt Orr

        There are differences for sure, but it’s still very similar. There is a reason tracks are often available for all of those as it isn’t that much work comparatively to making a new track.

      • Pablo Coronel

        No way, keep your GTR2 longingly, with rFactor 2, the golden era just begun.

  • dddgs

    Haha, simbin is jeolous of all the hype rf 2 etc are getting over their rrrrrr or whatever game. Maybe they shld concentrate on making their new title better and stop pissing on the party.

  • Wayne Reed

    So SimBin has put out new rules on what we can and cant do. They did the same some years ago.

    It is up to them what they say we can and cant do with there work but its how they go about i dont like. But on the other hand i have read in the other topic how simbin was out of line for telling GMT to stop so late on in that teams work. But on the other side you could say the same about GMT for not asking before the work was started. It works both ways.

    Will it stop people from doing converts NO!!! I know of 6 mods that have been converted from pCARS alone and that game is not even out and 1 from iracing, GSC2012 was converted to every other sim with in a week of it coming out. You cant stop it. Many of us have mods we know have come from other sims but we still download them. I my self have many mods from other sims and i have no problem saying that But i also buy the games they come from long before the modders take the stuff from them. I do that as i like the game or i want to see that team go far. Like GSC 2012 i got that more then anything because i want to see them get bigger and bigger on the up side of that its about one of the best sim’s out there.

    I dont buy simbin games any more as i think they are crap. If they made a good game i would get it.

    Some of you saying you will no longer buy there games because you think they are being out of order is just childish. They have every right to ask people to stop.

    I alos think the one’s moaning about the website that posts converted mods (yes we all know what one) My i ask how you know about this site if you dont like that sort of thing?

    We all do it for 1 very simple reason as the saying goes. “Build it and they will come”.

    I can put money on it that 90% of the people here have Mods, Music, Films, Tv Programs That have come off of a torrent site. Do not sit there saying its wrong to steal when you do it your self.

    I think the the problem most of you have is you dont like it as this track will now not be coming out (yes i wanted it aswell) But thats not down to simbin. Here is an idea instead of bashing simbin. Why dont we all go on the ISI forums and bash them for not doing it in the first place. As one other guy on this topic has said The Ring is a must for any sim game so why has ISI not done it?

    Will The Ring come to rF2 yes. When? Who knows. there could well be a modding team working on it now for all we know.

    We can all sit here fighting for all of time its not going to change a damn thing SimBin have had there say. End of the line is ripping mods will still go on. Down load them or dont its up to YOU!!!

    • Vivemclaren

      If everybody respected the rules of modding, there would be no problems…

      Instead converting everything, learn 3D modelling, 2D texture, so the modding… So you can do everything which you want…

      • Wayne Reed

        If only it was that easy.

      • Jay Ekkel

        When i started modding a long time ago, I knew how to work photoshop, but didn’t even know the slightest on how to model a cube. I picked up a 3d program and started messing about. A few weeks later I was building my first cars and after a few cars I started building tracks.

        The result was not there it the beginning, but it worked out in the end. Was it easy….? Well it wasn’t that hard. Some effort is definitely required, but it is very far from impossible.

  • Ilija Prentovski

    Once upon a time, there used to be but one land mass on Earth. Life was not much diversified. Boring landscape, one might argue. Many millions of years later, this single piece of land, a home to all living beings, split up into continents. A wonderful opportunity arose! Life had to adapt to a myriad of environmental differences, thus evolving into a dazzling variety of beautiful creatures. In order to do so, various life forms had to cooperate instead of compete, or they would not have been able to make it. They merged into more complex organisms, able to resist the external environmental challenges. Each of them took a role in the web of life, serving the whole. They evolved together, creating unity in diversity.

    But then humans came along, and thought it was a separation not good enough. So we artificially divided the continents into countries. Further down the road, brilliant minds promoted the idea of states. And it was still not enough, hence the invention of counties, municipalities, ranches, back yards, and what not. The land that belonged to no one is now littered with “no trespassing” signs.

    How can one among many life forms on the planet own a piece of it? One that appeared just a mere blink of an eye ago, in geological terms. Do we own a piece of our mothers? Do we claim “rights” on them over our brothers and sisters? We don’t. Everything that we (think that we) have, is a gift. We did not earn our body, or anything that supports it – the Sun, the air, the water, the soil… We did not earn being conscious, we just are.

    And now we want to slip back into unconsciousness, reckoning that private companies have rights over so called “intellectual property”. Not only did we further the separation agenda to the ulterior length in our physical environment, we are now mincing down in the realms of ideas.

    Usually there is a note accompanying the so called ‘illegal’ copies on torrent sites, saying: “Support the software developers. If you like this game, buy it.” This is so misleading! Companies hold the copyrights on software, and only shareholders/owners benefit. Not developers, they are expendable.

    “Community leaders and owners” are mentioned in Simbin’s open note… The words ‘community’ and ‘owners’ don’t fit well in the same sentence. It is either a healthy and resilient community, or ownership of everything that nature provides for a community to thrive. Of course, software source code does not grow on trees, some humans made it. But they would not have been able to make it, had not countless generations before us worked on developing the foundations of our technological society. As sir Isaac Newton put it, “If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants”.

    Building fences around ideas as alleged ‘intellectual property’ impoverishes not only the community, but also the IP ‘owner’. It drains the cultural capital of the human race. If we want to break the spell and create a more beautiful world, let’s focus on “what can I give” to the community, instead of “what can I take” from it. Each one of us is born with a gift to give. Let’s find out what it is and start giving. Cross-modding is a good place to start. Don’t take it away from us, please.

    PS: If you like what you have just read, feel free to share with anyone you fancy. I don’t hold a copyright on my scribblings 🙂

    • gt3rsr

      When you create something on the level of Simbin’s work and give it away for free, your arguments will be valid. Until then, it’s pure BS. Wake up dreamer, we don’t live in an ideal world, communism doesn’t work. Those guys have to somehow pay bills too!

      • Anonymous

        Aahhh are we getting to a point we have to feel sorry for the devs? Especialy Simbin, the dev that made big dollars with alot of race07 “edtions” without making real new content. Just a couple of new tracks and skins. Its not the bils they have to pay, its the extra car they want to buy.

      • gt3rsr

        Who forced you to buy all the Race07 addons? Seems like I’m surrounded by hippie commies here…

      • Anonymous

        Stop being a hater.

      • Anonymous

        We are not saying that u should steal content. We are also not saying everything should be shared for free. We are just asking devs to think of a way to crossmod in a way everybody can be happy.

    • Anonymous

      Very nice. Budha wouldn’t have said it better!

    • Michael Hornbuckle

      That’s the most eloquent crying post I might have ever read…

      • Anonymous

        Very creatitive from a very deep thinker. After reading that I think it’s time to go peace out and smoke another. LOL 🙂

    • Anonymous

      Coca cola gathers various forms of carbohydrates that essentially belong to everyone as they are created by our common sun. They then process theese carbs according to a source code called “recipy” and have the nerve to charge the beverage drinking community for it. They are just building on what mother nature provided for them!!! I’m gonna start stealing coke.

  • Olivier Prenten

    …and above all some conversions are real enhancements with regard to original versions!

  • speed1

    Converting without permission is a no go. To use work from any company to pleasure User from a diff Plattform is a no go. Pleasing the owner of any plattform to get something wished is the right way, after modding from scratch by someone personal. After all that the track has big potential to catch customer. So it should leave again to the copright owner to use it for future products again or not. SimBin is right to do so even it can’t stop everybody to rob something. I guess Simbin is on the way to release a NS for RRRE. So the lesser some competitor has it the better it is. My 2 cent.

    • Anonymous

      Less competition is not the best thing for the community. So think again before you count your blessings.,,,

      • speed1

        But better for a company in competition. Its not about what we like, its about business. Think again before you count your blessing….

      • Anonymous

        Well its clear u don’t have a basic understanding of economics.

      • speed1

        I’m just not a dreamer and i don’t know what ripping should have to do with economics in a positive way.

        Usually pay for a product and to bring money in circulation is a better contribute to the economy and not to steal.

      • Anonymous

        I’ve never promoted ripping. I only thing I sugguest is that the devs should think about a way to fulfill the need of the community, not just say no we don’t want this.

      • speed1

        I think they do well but for there own product. Why they should support diff plattforms just for the freedom of community. Yes from a POV of a sim user i would like to see my likes in my favorite sim and it is not R3E but from the POV of a company in business it is just wrong to support cross plattform converting.

    • Anonymous

      Well I think modders in the past have FTMP gotten no replies from Simbin when seeking permissions to do conversions and in the past has not stopped the releases of these conversions to the communities. I just wonder why now and why against GMT. Other less honorable converters will continue to convert content without permissions and dare Simbin to find it on less known download sites. GMT is an honorable group that I believe would have sought proper permission if they felt they would have gotten a reply. Simbin has been notorious for not replying to mod requests in the past.

      • speed1

        I see but…. ? I can understand both sides. To bad i can’t drive a well made NS in rF2. 🙂

  • Walter Conn

    Every community on earth has rules that the people in the community must obey. The rules needed to be clarified. It seems fair enough.

  • Reinheitsgebot

    Watch.

    Some “Physics Guru” or some other type of modder will post a video here at Virtual-R with this track for rF2.

    The innocent will ask; “Hey, can I play too?”

    ….Well, You know the rest of the story.

    “No! …only WE can play with these toys. You cant!”

    Lame.

  • Kevin Brigden

    I’ve been away from the sim-racing community for the last 3 or 4 months, exclusively spending my time in the flight sim community. What I find interesting there is that you have a very definite split between “freeware” and “payware” modding.

    Now, while I am not naive enough to suggest that there is no problems in the flight sim community I do note with interest how much more developed and “structured” it is than the sim-racing community. I think part of the problems occur because there is simply so much choice available within the sim-racing community. Furthermore, I believe that this freedom of choice leads us, the consumers, to EXPECT that freedom to extend across platforms whenever we please.

    Whether the guys over at SIMBIN are paying their bills or saving up for a big screen TV is only their business. What matters to me, is that they are charging for their product. I have absolutely no issue with this. Indeed, I have absolutely no issue with paying for it either.

    Ultimately, when you create a piece of work; be it an article, an album, a photograph or a computer game: you are [normally] putting in a great deal of work. Whether that work must be paid for or not is entirely at the artist’s discretion and moreover, it is up to us, the consumer to acknowledge and accept the artist’s contract when we purchase or use their work for free.

    In my humble opinion, it’s not so much to ask to observe and respect SIMBIN’s [the artist’s] wishes.

    • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

      Yeah I dunno what it is about Flight simming but if I see a plane, airport or land-mass that I really want I just buy it and I don’t even think about complaining that its not free, how much it is etc.

      This is because I’ve already made up my mind that it’s worth it for me.
      So I apply the same attitude with sim-racing. I don’t mind paying iRacings subscriptions, payware mods etc. as long as I think it is good value for me. Doesn’t matter to me if 99% of the stuff around is free or not. Same also with my 3D stuff. You can get free models all over the place and I have no shortage of resources for 3D cars, but if I see one online to buy that I like I`ll grab it.
      I once spent $300 on a full 3D model of the Space Shuttle stack. But the detail was exquisite and I wasn’t even using it on a commercial project. I wanted it, and I got it.

      On the subject of Simbin, yes their rights should be respected just as much as any modder would like their rights to their work to be respected, if not more so because money was likely spent to acquire the rights to the assets in the first place.

    • http://virtualr.net/ F1Racer

      Yeah I dunno what it is about
      Flight simming but if I see a plane, airport or land-mass that I really
      want I just buy it and I don’t even think about complaining that its not
      free, how much it is etc.

      This is because I’ve already made up my mind that it’s worth it for me.
      So
      I apply the same attitude with sim-racing. I don’t mind paying
      iRacings subscriptions, payware mods etc. as long as I think it is good
      value for me. Doesn’t matter to me if 99% of the stuff around is free
      or not. Same also with my 3D stuff. You can get free models all over
      the place and I have no shortage of resources for 3D cars, but if I see
      one online to buy that I like I`ll grab it.
      I once spent $300 on a
      full 3D model of the Space Shuttle stack. But the detail was exquisite
      and I wasn’t even using it on a commercial project. I wanted it, and I
      got it.

      On the subject of Simbin, yes their rights should be respected just
      as much as any modder would like their rights to their work to be
      respected, if not more so because money was likely spent to acquire the
      rights to the assets in the first place.

  • Wally Masterson

    I’m late to the argument, I know. I can’t help feeling that a digital
    representation of a track should somehow belong to the community, and be
    shareable between sim titles. Hear me out. There is but one Nordschleife in the
    physical world, on which a great many different cars can race, and similarly
    there should be one digital representation. Every developer is trending towards
    more and more accurate representations of the same track, and it seems a bit
    wasteful for every game developer to re-model the same track, preferably
    complete with laser scanning.

    Car modelling, on the other hand, is uniquely tied to a sim’s physics, which
    defines a huge part of a sim’s distinguishing character, and is not inherently
    shareable. Forgetting for the moment the commercial question of who actually
    pays for a track’s development, I would like to contemplate a model for the sim
    development community in which each studio develops their own cars, physics,
    FFB, lighting, weather etc, but where tracks are shareable.

    If there was a centralised standard for track modelling to facilitate open
    sharing of a track between titles, and a centralised body responsible for the
    digital development of a track, then it would even save development studios
    time and money for they wouldn’t have to expend resources on modelling the same
    track that everyone else is laser scanning and modelling. Who this centralised
    body would be, and how it would be funded, I don’t know. Perhaps the sim genre
    can learn something from open source software and open standards.

    It might be a utopian notion, but I think it would be a win-win for sim
    developers and the sim community, who just want to race their favourite tracks
    in their favourite sims.

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