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Project CARS – Driver Feedback Compilation Released

Slightly Mad Studios have released a complete document with all real race driver feedback that has been posted inside the WMD forums.

Ever since Slightly Mad Studios launched development of Project CARS title, professional race car drivers played a pivotal role with helping to shape the WMD-powered title into the most realistic virtual racing experience possible.

For the past few years, Handling Consultants Ben Collins & Nicolas Hamilton have provided detailed feedback reports in the WMD forums to help fine-tune the cars’ handling characteristics. Now, just in time for Christmas, Slightly Mad Studios have decided to share the real-drivers’ input with everyone by releasing a document that contains all their feedback reports from more than two years of development.

The released document allows everyone to catch up on all the physics freedback reports from the two Handling Consultants as well as the subquentet replies from Slightly Mad Studios’ vehicle dynamic engineers. All the feedback is unfiltered & unedited as it was posted inside the WMD forums.

The documents starts in November 2012, a cruical month for the phyiscs development of Project CARS as implementation of the SETA tire model was kicked off that month and refined the following 24 months, all based on the highly extensive feedback the expert drivers provided.

As the drivers have provided very extensive feedback, the document comes with more than 400 pages of insight into the title’s development, giving everyone a chance to see the WMD-process in full swing!

Project CARS will be available for the PC, Sony Playstation 4 and Microsoft Xbox One starting March 17 in the United States and March 20 in Europe, coming both as standard edition as well as being available as Limited Edition with additional goodies & content.

Project CARS will be sold both as boxed copies available at your favorite retailers as well as via digital distribution on Steam. More info can be found on the Project CARS website.

The Steam version of Project CARS can be pre-purchased here, boxed copies are available here.

[boxdownload]Download Project CARS Driver Feedback Compilation Here[/boxdownload]
  • Pe11e

    SMS persistently trying to rub this “driver feedback” story on our noses, to make us think that we are missing an ultimate experience not driving pCars. I have pCars and I simply can’t relate to real driving fell or experience, but neverthless it is a good semi-sim game with proper immersion factor.

    • mhth

      Oh so giving us the opportunity to look at the behind scenes notes of what’s gone into the game by these drivers is some how rubbing our nose in it. Wow !!!!! REALLY!!!!!

    • ModernTimes2

      Merry x-mas to you too 🙂

    • Dylan H.

      Advertising, how does it work.

    • Sim Antics

      You can spin it however you want and preserve that chip you seem to have on your shoulder. I for one urge people to cut through the media side of the development and just enjoy the title for what it’s meant to be which is a great racing game nothing more nothing less. Enjoy your holiday.

    • Rlee

      That’s because you have exactly no idea how a real race car feels. You’ve been driving unrealistic “sims” for years and have been blinded by the fact that “harder must be more realistic”. Any driver will tell you a race car is fairly easy to drive up to 95% of it’s capability. It’s the last 5% that takes the car to the edge and makes it difficult to handle.

      They released this at the request of the WMD community who were sick and tired of hearing about how Nick and Ben where just paid marketing men.

      That’s an awful lot of input for two guys just to hype the game. But deniers like you will never admit that the sim is realsitic, no matter who told you it was. But your arguments are getting weaker and weaker.

    • Markus Ott

      Just 17 “Guest Votes”? Come on dude, you can vote more often for yourself!

    • Chris D

      It feels no better or worse than iRacing right now.

      Thats not necessarily a compliment but not necessarily the worst thing in the world.

  • Robert

    I just uninstalled this game yesterday lol. It ran bad on my machine where other games look and run much better. I haven’t played it in a while anyway and got tired of the pcars updates every time I loaded steam to play something else. I’ll give it another year for development and try it again.

  • Marc Collins

    Kudos to SMS for doing this. Now everyone can judge for themselves whether the racers provided useful feedback and to see the evolution of the title. Even though I am a hard-core sim person, I have no issue with a console-styled title trying to be the best possible experience and to make it plausibly realistic even if not hard core. That’s why I bought into Project CARS at the beginning and am sure it will provide some worthwhile hours of more casual fun.

  • mfcfan

    Seems a response to hardcore community criticism. Who else would be interested in this? Just reading a bit and you get sense the game is on never ending physics development cycle. 400+ pages of back and forth. Whatever happened to plugging in data and having engineers produce something that drives like real life?

    • ModernTimes2

      It’s a holiday gift to from SMS/WMD to the sim racing community…

      As it happens, the “make a perfect physics engine, enter real world data and get 1:1 realism” is a pipedream for now – no (consumer) sim has pulled that off and won’t for some time.

      A Human In the Loop simulation featuring such a complex system as tyres on tarmac will always be subject to tuning. In this case that happens at the same time as a completely new tyre model is being developed, and the devs are learning the finer points of its parameterization.

      It’s a big YES and THANK YOU from me to the devs and the testers for treading new ground and pushing the boundaries.

      • Ghoults

        It’s not a pipedream. Putting in actual real data is what transformed rfactor1 from icy spin simulator into one of the best sims out there. Put in real data and if you have a good physics engine you get good data out. Put in crap, get out crap. If you have poor physics engine like pcars then you can put whatever you want in and you don’t get good stuff out.

      • Dylan H.

        Yes, and the physics engine itself just appeared out of thin air. No one needs to actually code and implement how that engine handles the real world values that are being entered.

        Well thought out response, once again. It’s like reading the reasoning of a child.

      • Ghoults

        If the physics engine actually deals with real life physics then it uses the same values as real life. Real life physics can be measured. We have units to measure exactly how much and when. Get your physics engine wrong and you have physics engine that produces wrong results. You then say fudge the values to make it produce real values. It doesn’t work like that.

        If your calculator says 1+1=3 then you don’t try to find the values to get result =2 but you fix the problem by fixing the code. If you neeed 0.324+1.6 to get 2 you have messed up period.

      • Sim Antics

        If it was an exact science it would all be perfect and all sims would drive the same “right”? All it is “is” an effort to get to as close to RL as possible and those that have tons of hours in RL scenarios deserve to be heard on the subject they are accustom to.

      • David Dominguez

        The problem is that you can’t get all tire data possible, so to speak you don’t know if 1+1 is 2 in many aspects.

      • ModernTimes2

        I said “make a perfect physics engine, enter real world data and get 1:1 realism” is a pipedream for now. I did not say that good sims can’t be made – that howver, takes develpment and “back and forth”.

        Also as long as there a human in the loop, the perception of realism will be subjective.

      • Ghoults

        How exactly does it need development back and forth? It’s physics, math and coding. Not picasso where the colors change based on you happen to feel that day. There is no driver feedback saying “I feel you should use (x+1)^0.3 there instread of x^2-x”.

      • Roy Rki

        Chemical composition of racing tires is very classified and that’s what makes the whole grip and feel. That’s where pro racedrivers come in to give feedback on it, not some sim racers who think RF handles better than real life and everything else that doesn’t handle like RF is rubbish arcade.

      • Sim Antics

        Your another that is just looking at car data and not considering that much of the environment values are created with educated guesses and true data for many of the conditions that in the long run may have an effect on car physics does not exist in a perfect sense and it all ends up being variables.

      • ModernTimes2

        That is just very, very, very silly. It’s obviously not the test drivers’ job to suggest new systems, algorithms and coefficients.

      • mfcfan

        Its not a pipedream. How do you think rfactor pro operates? Its all fed on real data.

      • pez2k

        rFactor Pro doesn’t have one standard physics engine.

      • mfcfan

        Link me where pro teams are using something different other then feeding their own data into rf pro.

      • pez2k

        ISI literally advertise how easy it is to replace the vehicle model with your own code:
        http://www.rfactor-pro.com/Models.aspx

      • mfcfan

        And provide the own model as well. If you managed to look at that picture. Just like how they can provide their own tracks.

      • pez2k

        If you want to interpret the availability of an inhouse model as ‘proof’ that literally none of their customers ever use an alternative model then feel free to.

      • Sim Antics

        But variations are needed to be made for it to work in a virtual environment. Real Data will get the ball rolling but that does not mean it will translate to virtual in a perfect manner because the environmental side of the equation causes the whole scenario to be imperfect.

      • ModernTimes2

        …and runs on racks of computers with heavy custom physics models (and the simulations are most likely subject to tuning even there).

        It certainly doesn’t rely on the the blissful simplicity of Pacejka’s magic formula (which has it’s place, but not in a racing sim in this day and age) or similar.

      • Rlee

        You are delusional if you believe that.

      • The Dark

        so, 1 persons comment you said was “retarded”
        another person you told to “get a life” while criticising them for trolling i should add
        and how someone else is “delusional”

        you are carrying yourself really well and really show an inability to talk properly to people you dont agree with.
        people like you need moderating.

      • HardRock

        Yes, it’s a pipe dream. The dev teams of the various sims may have real data available to them, but that doesn’t mean that feeding them to their simulation will result in a realistic experience. The main reason is a lack of computing power. Technically it may be possible to create a realistic sim, one that recreates all the forces acting on a real car, based on real data, but it won’t run at anywhere near enjoyable framerates. Many compromises are made even in today’s sims and every single one of them means that directly feeding in real data is unfeasible. That data is useful for another reason, as a point of comparison. In other words, seeing how close your fudged system simulates the real world.

      • todemanjack

        Seeing how long the “data” is being continuously changed and manipulated in iRacing, rFactor 2 and rFactor. To make them drive realistically. I doubt your opinion is correct.

      • Rlee

        You are a troll, no other way to put it. How long did it take you to go through 400 pages to find a comment that you could put on here and point to and say “Seriously”? Get a life dude. Your bias is obvious.

      • The Dark

        on the trolling aspect youre not doing so badly yourself.

        dont call someone a troll with a comment that is also trolling. thats just daft.

        and if your expectation is for every single person to give an unbiased opinion based on if they like pcars or not then i have some bad news for you. its never going to happen.
        film, book and games reviews are littered with biased opinions. see you are supposed to form your own.

        i dont understand why people are acting as if others opinions are such and important and deciding factor.
        especially if you a) already have the game yourself and b) if unbiased opinions are what youre after then good look finding one that you think fits you after release.
        some will love it some wont and until you try if you wont even know what group you fit into unless you have already put yourself in one – probably the “i want to hate this” crowd.

      • ModernTimes2

        Rlee is not a troll – he’s just one of many that are beginning to become fed up with the actual persistent and incessant trolling in forums where we’re supposed to discuss and enjoy our hobby, and he’s not shy about it.

        Other than that I agree with you 🙂

      • The Dark

        i get that but two wrongs dont make a right.

    • Sim Antics

      Maybe but the rest of the community is not singled out and yes there are those that might have a legitimate interest to see what all is in this document rather than those just wanting to twist everything into ammunition against Slightly Mad, WMD, and the Community that is a part of this project. All I could expect is that people would see this as genuine communication in it’s unadulterated state. So please do create your own opinions but spare us the non-sense.:) And Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays for all.

      • mfcfan

        Nonsense? What exactly did you learn from reading that report?

      • Sim Antics

        I have read it over time by following the development of the game first hand. If you really don’t care about it that’s perfectly fine but in that case should you really drag it any further? I am not fully agreeing or disagreeing with you but people need to be able to make up their own minds.

    • todemanjack

      I’ve always doubted that idea about racing game physics. No physics engine has yet been invented that will accept a little or allot of real life data, and translate it into a realistic acting and feeling simulator. That’s just my opinion. So don’t everyone jump on me like I’m the devil.

    • Rlee

      I guess it’s just that easy huh? What a retarded comment. iRacing is 6 years into it’s tire model, but I’m sure you could tackle it in a few months.

      • The Dark

        didnt you know any other word than retarded?
        cant you disagree with people without being so insulting or are you just wanting to provoke the most you can for no reason other than because your disagree?.

      • BackMarker

        Rlee is retarded mentally so when he says something is retarded i believe him!

    • Alan Dallas

      Because Engineers are not race car drivers.

    • Richard Schouteren

      This is exactly what I was thinking, its 400+ pages of guesstimate!!

  • Gui Cramer

    In the article’s photo, Nic Hamilton and Andy are actually standing up. Ian is that big.

    • ModernTimes2

      There has not yet been invented as camera that is able capture all of Ian at once :-p

      • Gui Cramer

        There was but it got destroyed with the Death Star

    • Alan Dallas

      We don’t affectionately call Ian “The Wookie” for nothing. 🙂

  • pastor_tedhaggard

    i ain’t gona read it, but let me guess, it concludes with ‘wow all the cars handle like real life, its the most realistic game ive ever played! i’m not being paid for this, honest!’

    • HardRock

      So you’re not gonna look at the one document that could disprove your false and baseless preconceptions about the role of the handling consultants? Must be convenient, but at least you’re dedicated to your ignorance, so you have that going for you I guess.

      In short, no, both Nic and Ben constantly voice their opinion on things they don’t like to this day. You probably don’t care about that though. You don’t strike me as someone who could be swayed by pesky things like facts.

      • pastor_tedhaggard

        they are being paid, and they speak publicly about the game, and the game is being marketed as something that has used so called experts to develop the physics.
        this makes all their opinions worthless, because they are biased. It’s as simple as that.

        i never argued that they don’t voice opinions. my point is the validity of those opinions, given that they are being paid by the developer and to take part in promo activity.

        happy to read a 400 page document on someone completely independent who has driven this game alongside all the other sims, sure. If you have one of those knocking about, send it.

      • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

        Your talking rubbish. They are critial. Amazing that SMS do more then any other devs – realising stuff like this and still nobody is happy. Well done internet.

      • The Dark

        dont say nobody. its just a handful of bitter people who think they are passionate sim racers when instead their need to get THEIR opinion out which is also biased seems more important than the love for their hobby in this community.

      • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

        Yeah i know. What frustrates me is that from the start they put their neck out more then any other developer and still people don’t really get it. I’m not saying it’ll be the best sim ever – but firstly many people never had faith from the start – despite them being the SAME TEAM that created great mods from the start. So we commit to a dev and then we have to fight endless battles. And then if they had bothered to follow them SMS never – at any stage – hid anything from the forums. I won’t deny theres more boasting on many sites then many sim developers and that can be a pain to watch but firstly you don’t have to and secondly – nayslayers don’t even run a videogame company. Also – they’re competing at a console level. Against the likes of T10 and Poly who do the exact same thing. Stupid arguments all of them. In fact you’d think these people wouldn’t want another sim. But furthermore they didn’t even need to prove themselves by doing this. And yet here they are with their “balls in a vice” again and if they get this wrong that vice will clamp down. And secondly they’ve led the way in getting the community involved (and other devs are now taking note).

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Not only that, but those complaining about marketing this, paid pro drivers that yada yada, would be doing the EXACT same thing if they had a game company developing a AAA game.
        They would spend all their working days talking it up and making sure it got talked up. Then they’d have to deal with people like them who criticise the talk up. 🙂

      • Yabba

        Well, no. I’d spend all of my working days making a great game.

        Talk is cheap.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Funny, I thought they were doing that.

      • Yabba

        Right, but you said if you were doing it you’d spend all your time talking about how great the game would be.

        Which is obviously a ridiculous plan

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        I didn’t mention myself at all. Besides you’re talking as if developing a AAA game is a one man job. Which is ridiculous.

      • Yabba

        You didn’t mention yourself but you implied that this would be the way that games are developed if anyone other than SMS were doing it.

        That somehow the key idea is to talk about how great your game is.

        I said nothing about “one man job” at all. Are you suggesting one person’s job for the whole of the development would be saying how great it was? That’s even more ridiculous.

        Anyway, no point arguing on. You said something to try and defend criticism of this document that itself was actually a bad idea.

        It’s a bad idea to talk up a bad game. This is something that SMS have done in the past and now, if they do have a good game, they’ll have their work cut out to convince people this time.

        Put simply, it’s never a good idea to talk up your game and far better to focus your efforts on writing a decent title.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        “I said nothing about “one man job” at all. Are you suggesting one
        person’s job for the whole of the development would be saying how great
        it was? That’s even more ridiculous.”

        You said “Right, but you said if you were doing it you’d spend all your time talking about how great the game would be. Which is obviously a ridiculous plan”

        The implication being that it’s a ridiculous plan because if you spend all your time talking about the how great the game is then you’d have no time for anything else. Hence my implication that there is more than one person working on a game and you can do both at the same time.

        And if you took it to mean that I mean you spend the entire working day talking up the game then you’re taking things way too literally.

        I was not defending criticism of this document either (which I think is a good thing for SMS to put out btw). I was simply stating that those who are criticising the marketing strategies of SMS would do the exact same thing in the same situation. Lets not lose sight of that.

        Did you say its never a good idea to talk up your game ? Hehe, you can’t be serious. Have you watched TV commercials ? All marketing for all products talk up that product. Every single one. Games and the devs that make them are no exception.
        That’s what it’s for.

      • Yabba

        “I was simply stating that those who are criticising the marketing strategies of SMS would do the exact same thing in the same situation.”

        And as I replied to that, no I wouldn’t. I would put all of my effort into writing a decent game.

        If I achieved that I wouldn’t need to lie about it on TV.

      • ModernTimes2

        “Put simply, it’s never a good idea to talk up your game and far better to focus your efforts on writing a decent title.”

        The reality is that ALL makers of games talk up their game, regardless of it’s quality. It’s not even a choice for them. Making games is a business and to survive you must sell.

        This is achieved primarily by “talking it up”, which is done by the marketing people. Meanwhile the developers DO focus their efforts on writing a decent title.

      • Yabba

        Not really it isn’t.

        Maybe we play different games.

        Certainly the sim world has suffered from developers making ridiculously over-hyped claims about their products. e.g That’s certainly true of the developer of this title for their previous titles.

        It’s certainly the case that simbin and atari conspired to hide how bad the race pro game on xbox was (ask them where the demo was – it’s definitely coming, right? :D) It didn’t really help them sell it though.

        It’s certainly the case that some big publishers go out of their way to deceive if their game is unfinished and full of bugs (the most recent example of this off the top of my head assassin’s creed unity or whatever it’s called)

        But, it’s not really true in general that game developers lie and misrepresent their products – and it’s rarely a successful ploy when one does because it tends to damage their reputation over the long term even if they dupe a few extra sales.

        Put simply, it’s never a good idea to talk up your game and far better to focus your efforts on writing a decent game. cf: Valve software.

      • ModernTimes2

        By “talk up” (in quotes) I don’t mean that the should lie or be dishonest.

        BTW, just to be sure I checked dictionaries and idiom sites (I’m not a native English speaker), and “talk up” does indeed NOT mean “lie” – it means to speak well of, or promote. So your posting above is an irrelevant rant that’s missing the target entirely.

        Promoting their products is is what marketing do. I have not seen one sim company not doing it.

      • Roy Rki

        Independent reviews will be available after release…

      • MaddmattH

        Summary: “Not gonna read, just gonna troll lol”

      • The Dark

        why are you being so narrow minded?
        i am pretty convinced that their opinions or how the cars handle when feeding back to the devs is to the best of their knowledge and if they have to say something feels wrong they will do without hesitation. they are not going to sit there paid or not and lie saying “no it feels great amazing and wonderful” when it doesnt.
        anything they say on what they think of the actual game is something different and like everyone else is just their opinion.

        a newsflash for you. you dont have to base your opinion on theirs any more than you do anyone elses. you are expected to form your own – if you can.

        you act as if only their opinions are the ones that will matter. and if you think it is or that they will carry more weight than your own then thats where youre going wrong.
        there is no need whatsoever to wonder or worry what their opinions will be or whether its biased or not.
        for me only i decide what the game is like. i can use other peoples as a guide – just like with movies.

        if they wax lyrical about pcars in an interview then yes you expect them to talk it up. and why not after they are the ones giving their feedback to make the cars feel better than they otherwise might have done.
        but i take it all with a pinch of salt just the same as if it was any other members opinion.
        my opinion is all that matters. as long as the pro drivers have given the best feedback they can and pointed out where cars are bad then i am happy. and to that i am sure they have done that.

        christmas in your house is going to be a blast with you around. you must be so nice to spend time with.
        probably i have made this email too long for you to want to read it too.

      • HardRock

        “Are you telling me that even if the game handled like garbage, that they
        would still maintain that stance and say it was garbage?”

        Yes, I’m telling you that. If you’d read the document you’d see how critical they are of the sim. While they never said it’s garbage, that’s only because their aim is to provide constructive feedback. They were sometimes quite harsh, but always helpful for the devs.

        Also, while they do promote the game publicly as well, these posts of Nic’s and Ben’s aren’t posted for marketing purposes. In fact making the game look good wasn’t on their mind when they wrote these posts, which should be plainly obvious to anyone who starts reading this PDF (you don’t have to read the whole thing you know). This document was released to show people how WMD works behind the scenes. The fact that people like you, who clearly don’t know anything about pCARS’ development and the role these drivers played in it refuse to even look at it is just sad, because SMS released it for your benefit.

      • Kondor999

        I’m not getting paid $hit, I’ve been early access on both AC and pCars and I can tell you the FFB and physics in pCars right now is second to none. Interestingly, as both sims have improved, the FFB in AC and pCars has now gotten to the point where they are very similar (reassuring, given that there is a single reality they both seek to portray). I also think RRE is excellent, but the FFB and physics feel just a bit more “canned” than the other 2 I’ve mentioned.

        PCars is a fantastic racing sim. Right now the biggest weakness is the tire model on the street cars. It just feels way too mushy. But the race cars are unbelievably good right now.

        PCars gets knocked for being all about eye candy, but to my eye AC currently has the most sublime graphics.

        Why don’t you actually try playing these sums before you spout off nonsense? And if you haven’t, maybe just be quiet?

      • Yabba

        What’s up Ted, did Santa leave you a lump of coal again?

        Firstly this document isn’t either of them speaking publicly or PR. It’s feedback they gave to the game developers.

        So it’s like SMS said to Ben Collins “Play this game and tell us what’s wrong with the handling” – This is pretty much what anyone in employment might be asked to do.

        To suggest the veracity is influenced by a pay cheque therefore makes no sense at all. They were literally being paid to say why the game was bad.

        Absolutely, they might be asked for some soundbites – (and I’ve seen a few comments attributed to them on this site that sound a bit fake) but this document isn’t an advert for the game.

        e.g there’s an article on 2nd November on this site where Ben Collins supposedly says “During my three year journey with Project CARS, I’ve born witness to the dawn of a new era of computer-generated reality. For the first time, the racing that I know and love will be available to anyone with a console.” which doesn’t sound very much like natural speech to me.

        3 year journey? dawn of a new era? It makes him sound like a gay captain kirk or something.

        That’s not the kind of silly guff that is in this handling document though. Read it and see.

    • ModernTimes2

      1 – Ben and Nic are quite critical.
      2 – Ben and Nic are being paid (hint: they’re professionals), it’s not a secret, quite the contrary.
      3 – Your posting is pathetic trolling from the bottom of the barrel.

    • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

      Far from it

    • The Dark

      looks like you and so far 9 others have no clue what has been said then.
      why doesnt that surprise me and to see some familiar names liking your post just because its anti-pcars rhetoric.

    • MontoyaVR

      When has anybody ever doubted that Ben & Nic are paid for what they do?

      If you had read the document, which for some reason you apparently can’t be bothered to do, you’d seen that their feedback has been extremely extensive for more than 24 months and has often enough been more than critical..which is exactly what they have been paid for.

      I challenge you to find me a real life race car driver who’s willing to invest this much time into game development without compensation. Their time is extremely valuable and if you want such experts to work for you, you have to pay them. It is that simple..

      And since when does being paid turn everybody into a liar? I assume you are being paid for something, does that make you a liar when it comes to your job?

      By the way, there’s an independent driver playing pCARS, his name is Rene Rast. But of course you’ll tell me now that he’s being paid to (which makes so sense because SMS has always been open about who’s being paid and who isn’t) only to brush his opinion aside without having to acknowledge it.

      Once positive reviews come out you’ll claim that they have somehow been paid as well. There’s no pleasing you because the last thing you want is to have the opinion you have formed years ago being challenged.

      • The Dark

        dont take the bait Montoya. try to resist these types. not worth it. people will already made up minds.

        for what its worth i think all of the points in your post pwned him pretty badly. 🙂 ouch!

    • Pvt Stash

      Old saying: Tis best to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt. Well, it’s my reason for not posting much anyway. 😛

    • Bill Wester

      You would sound much more knowledgeable if you would know what you are talking about. I stated reading a bit from the latest back and while some feedback was positive, some was suggestions for areas needing improvement. Who would have thought!

    • Alan Dallas

      Breaking laws again are we?

      Oliver’s Law of Public Speaking — A CLOSED MOUTH GATHERS NO FEET!!!

    • Yabba

      If you turn to the back Ted there’s a picture of a brum brum car for you to colour in.

  • melanieuk1

    Come on SMS and the WMD team, I love how you burst the blood vessels, of all the arm chair physics exerts, and arm chair software developers who’s probably never typed a single code in their lives, let alone write a email.

  • The Dark

    i don’t care one bit how they market pcars or what they do to market it. its all part of the cycle.
    i care only how it drives and how much i will like it. thats all that should really matter. why ruffle my feathers, or anyone elses, about the rest. its not worth stressing out about.
    put the game on my screen and let me at it and after that the only opinion in the world that is going to matter is mine.

  • James Robertson

    I know it’s off topic but when I run the Grand Prix version of Suzuka I get a weird shortened version that misses out the hairpin and has a different last corner.

    Does anyone know why this has been changed or is it possibly a glitch on my side.

    Thanks

    • ModernTimes2

      Your system is fine 🙂 Suzuka is not licensed, hence the nick name “Sakitto”, and part of that situation is that the track has been redesigned.

      • James Robertson

        …….and thanks for answering

      • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

        Weirdly i quite like it. Makes for an amazing finish line dash.

      • http://www.lockedandloaded.us Neil

        I finally got a chance to try it out today, the lack of the Casio triangle is great. I frakking hate that damn chicane.

    • Alan Dallas

      You really should read the WMD forums more.

      • James Robertson

        Thanks for nothing 🙂

      • EZehnder

        Well, you asked for technical support on a blog post. Asking in the WMD forums is the only correct place to ask.

  • Ross

    DAE dislike pCARS. Ammirite?

  • RKipker

    I sure wish the developers would realize just how crappy the garage screen looks on triple screens… though I guess even after posting as a Sr. member they’re focusing on it. Looks great in this pic above…. I sure hope they correct for the release version.

    • Justin Cruze

      Which sim has a community feedback document?? Why would you want a community feedback document when the community as whole doesn’t know what it wants??
      Simracer1 doesn’t like physics in Sim1 but loves physics in Sim2, Simracer2 things physics in Sim2 feels weird and prefers Sim1, Simracer3 thinks both previous Simracers are idiots and only likes Sim3, Simracer4…..I think you get the idea.

      Any racing sim physics developer would go mad and end up in a mental institution if they tried to go by what the community said.

      • RKipker

        Was Joking really… about that. But I would lik to see the game optimized for triple sceens.

    • Steggesepp

      You would have to copy the whole Forum into one document, it’s simply impossible to sum together the comments of the community. It’s simply too much the community talks about 🙂

  • Rubrbrnr

    Geesh, I knew as soon as I saw the post that there would be some heated discussion. But this is ridiculous. Some of you need to get a grip. A software company hired professional drivers to provide input on their game in an attempt to make it as ‘real’ as possible. They published the notes, so we could see them (thanks). Stop looking for hidden agendas and conspiracies or heaven forbid you should be offended by them trying to ‘sell’ you on the game…. Wah, wah, wah….

    Oh and while I’m at it, to all you so-called ‘sim racers’ that think somebody should pay you for your ‘priceless’ knowledge of sim racing physics, you don’t know squat about real race cars or racing. All you know if how your beat-up POS Civic takes a cloverleaf on the way to the office everyday. Forgive me if I don’t care about your opinion on the subject of physics.

    • TR7_LS1

      ^ ^ ^ ^ x1000 !!

    • Pvt Stash

      Hey, maybe it’s a conspiracy masking itself as an attempt to point out how badly abused civics go round corners. They probably should have gone for a reliant, more believable. 😉

  • Justin Cruze

    Someday we’ll have a blog post about pCARS without this happening. Someday.

  • RobertH

    FFB is getting better, not on the same level as IR, RF or AC.. still needs some work.. fingers crossed.. 🙂

    • The Dark

      well we havent heard that a thousand times before. i wonder if sms know about it by now.

  • Alan Dallas

    Glad I been following their feedback since the beginning on the forums. That’s a lot of reading. Some really good stuff in there however so it’s worth the read IMHO.

  • todemanjack

    I just watched a movie about murder and mayhem. Than I read all these comments. And I laughed my arss off.

  • Jay Ekkel

    Its a good read, and the comments (what the **** people, way to advertise our smirking community…).

    I think its good to realise that this is feedback based on feeling and expectations and not real life experience of that exact car. At least I do believe that these two pro’s have not driven all the cars that are/will be available in the game.

    But from experience, real race drivers are able to give you a lot more detailed feedback on what they feel (or not) and if it meets what they expect of that car. And have the knowledge and ability to translate that back to a “normal person” that needs to implement it, which results in a better game in the end!

    It may or may not result in cars that drive better in a simulator then they should. But it shouldn’t matter in my opinion, if the experience is immersive then it does what it should do!

    • EZehnder

      Ben Collins has driven most of the cars in the game, actually. Remember that he was the Stig for the longest time and drove a ton of cars. If it wasn’t that exact model, he’s still driven quite a few of the same type.

      • Jay Ekkel

        well I doubt he has driven these cars during his stig career (it’s been a while 😉 ), nonetheless as we both said, professional drivers have the knowledge and expertise to deliver feedback on any given car imo. And as far as I am concerned it’s more about the driving experience being believable then the numbers/data being correct.

        Looking forward to the final game!

      • Yabba

        Based upon what? Sheesh Jay, whether Ben Collins has driven a particular car or not is a matter of fact and not something you can decide by scratching your chin and guessing.

        Or, put another way, you doubting something or not doesn’t change reality.

        If you’d actually read the document it’s pretty clear in it when he’s talking about (and comparing) the real life version of the car.

      • Jay Ekkel

        lol, being dramatic much…..wasn’t aware i was attempting to change reality with my conclusion after reading most of the document..

        But since you asked, I probably base it on the same assumption you base it on that he has driven all these cars in real life. I did not come to that conclusion after reading most of the document….simple as.

        There is no doubt he has a gigantic library of experience he can dwell on. And if he has not driven that exact car, he has driven something similar.

        Getting feedback from a pro like Ben Collins, is extremely valuable. He can describe feelings and sensation better then probably any of us and the end result will be a believable experience within the game, which IMO is key to succes.

      • Yabba

        I didn’t make any assumptions that he has or hasn’t driven anything.

        I said that it’s a matter of fact whether he has and scratching your chin to decide that he hasn’t is ridiculous.

      • Jay Ekkel

        As far as i can see you assume as much as I do, after the reading the document it is not clear to me he has or hasn’t but please know that I do not care if he has or hasn’t.

        My opinion is that people like Ben Collins are invaluable for game development. Providing immersion in a game is more valuable then making sure the numbers are right, and people like Ben and Nicolas are great solutions to reach that goal.

        And that is my opinion as a competing game developer and as a simracer.

        Great from SMS that they are sharing this with the community, lets enjoy it rather then nitpicking on things that don’t really matter.

      • Yabba

        No, I didn’t assume anything.

        Perhaps you’re getting different posters mixed up but I certainly haven’t said Ben Collins did or didn’t drive any car on this site or any other.

      • Jay Ekkel

        No, it means the exact same thing, at least to me it does. I like to believe i know my way around the English language, if i do shed confusion on your end my apologies.

        Its not clear to me in the documentation I draw a conclusion that he has not, which IMO is a fair assumption. If he has kudos to him on having the best profession and opportunities in life. And again I don’t care if he has or hasn’t if he has it has more value then it already has now.

        For the rest of your comment, so far for having an adult conversation………. If you want to talk smack to someone go play call of duty, I will not stoob that low.

        So it has been nice talking to you, have a great Christmas.

      • Yabba

        “No, it means the exact same thing, at least to me it does.”

        Oh come on, Jay.

        You said “At least I do believe that these two pro’s have not driven all the cars that are/will be available in the game”

        and then “well I doubt he has driven these cars during his stig career”

        and then “after the reading the document it is not clear to me he has or hasn’t”

        In other words, you said 2 statements which were not true. The first is an outright lie, where you try to factually state these guys haven’t ridden cars (even though you have no clue whether they have or not)

        You tried to weasel your way out of it by pretending that whether they’ve driven cars is a matter of opinion. So you switched to saying “i doubt he has” – but you’re still clueless as to whether he has or not.

        Finally you admitted the truth that you didn’t know. However now you are trying to pretend that this has something to do with the English language.

        If you can’t be honest Jay, then you’re pathetic. More so that your earlier posts are right there.

      • Jay Ekkel

        You are entitled to what you want to believe, to me you are just another internet word warrior. I tried my best (in another language then my own) to describe what I want to get across, but you seem to have set your goal to turn a positive comment into a negative one for no obvious reason.

        The only reason for me not to post in these and other places and spend my time on trying to defend and discuss our competitor titles as a dev and simracer is people like you. Possibly also a reason why we are not seeing dev stepping out in public and posting anything these days 🙁

        So to be clear to everyone, I do NOT know for a fact if Mr Collins has driven all these cars. I think the document is NOT clear about it. I do NOT care if he has or hasn’t, because I believe his feedback is extremely valuable either way. And I give kudos to SMS for sharing this document with the public.

        If someone does know for a fact Mr Collins resume and driven cars, then enlighten me. I would be even more impressed with his career then I already am. Just imagine being able to drive all these Classic iconic cars, these old Lotus f1 cars, the Zakspeed Capri and all the current race and road cars. I’d be jealous! 🙂

      • pez2k

        Direct personal attacks on people who spend every day working to bring us all entertainment are completely out of line.

      • Yabba

        There’s no personal attack.

        The guy outright lied in the thread. If he can’t be honest then he’s no use to any community.

        As for the comments about simbin et al – they are simply true.

    • LogiForce

      Jay, I just think too much people are missing their boss or bosses to nag at and now they start to nag about their hobby instead. :p

      The community has gone downhill in my opinion, out here at least. A bit sad to see. I can asure you that the WMD members are very adult in their bahavior and feedback. It really is a great group of people.
      So at least the people out here are not a reflection of the type of people contributing to the project.

      • ModernTimes2

        I don’t think the WMD members are the offenders here.

        The problem that drags things down every time is the small group that are obsessed with dissing everything SMS/WMD/pCARS “just because”, and then in the most respectless and tactless trollish ways.

      • LogiForce

        I never said WMD members are the problem. I am saying that the piss artists of this community (i.e. those “dissers” for the sake of dissing) do not represent the good people of WMD. That is all. Luckily if I might add.

      • ModernTimes2

        OK – got you! 🙂 Just confused about which community… Sadly, the word “community” almost seems to be an oxymoron among simmers sometimes.

      • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

        The irony is it makes people no better then those who think children and console owners only play arcade games. Ironic really when it was the arcade games like Hard Drivin’ and Sega’s Indy 500 and (especially) Ferrari F355 that actually tried to sell the simulator flag to the masses. How quick people forget their videogame histories. It wasn’t always the likes of Papyrus. But i digress.

      • LogiForce

        I actually still own a copy of Hard Drivin’ for the Amiga. I dug up the box earlier this year. The memories.
        But yeah, I at least have not forgotten the history. 😉

      • Jay Ekkel

        well to me this is part of the problem, why are we looking at ourselves as AC community, pcars community, R3E community, GSC community etc etc.

        We are one big community that enjoy racing games and simulations, we should be one big happy family especially this year! But instead more and more it starts to feel like this community is divided into a number of small factions that are about to go to war.

        We are niche as it is, pcars has a great chance of opening up our community to a lot of newcomers. And if i would be a newcomer and see the hostility we sometimes have on the boards. I would stay away from it.

        So in the end we are all part of the “problem” by overly defending your preferred title, or trying to kick another.

        Lets just enjoy the games we have gotten over the years, and stop finger pointing and have some awesome racing!

      • ModernTimes2

        “We are one big community that enjoy racing games and simulations, we should be one big happy family…”

        That’s what I thought prior to taking part in the sim racing community. Net-community wise I’ve participated elsewhere (also as moderator) for more than 20 years now, where the big-happy-family thing has worked all the way; people who love what they do, the diversity of it and the interesting interaction with their peers.

        Then I started to hang out in some sim forums (been a sim racer for as long as sims have existed, but kept to myself). What I discovered was two things: one was a bunch of great people, the other was an extremely vocal minority of individuals who are hell bent on lashing out at selected targets (pCARS and WMD seems to be a favourite in some circles) and making forums unpleasant. It doesn’t matter if they have to lie or appear as complete idiots, as long as the can bash away senselessly.

        So, for me it’s not about defending any title, but about defending good old decency – it does need a hand these days…

      • Matthew Arnold

        This community is almost a lost cause. You cannot post constructive feedback on ANY thread here any more. With pCars, RF2 or AC, post something contrary to a handful of trolls opinions here and you unleash the beast unfortunately, expect their clique to pound you with childish remarks, which for some reason a handful of people get away with while the others get banned or deleted comments.

        Needs clamping down on, its spreading out from VR to other sites now as well 🙁

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        I take it the last part of your post was indirectly addressed to me (again?) so you will have my reply to this in a while. I need to make sure what I’m going to say will be the right thing.

      • melanieuk1

        Not just you F1Racer, to him I seem to have my own set of rules here on virtualR that no one else seem to have.
        He doesn’t think you’re up to policing this site, and wants the job of a moderator.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Hi Matthew,
        Sorry for the delay….. right….

        Something that maybe not everyone will approve of will happen before the new year is out and after that I will be ‘clamping down’ on flamebait and trolling so people who want to act out and post in a disrespectful manner will have to think twice if they want to keep their posts or posting privileges.

        I agree it’s getting to be a turn off going through some posts but that will change.
        Then maybe you will stop slating VR as some sort of hub for trolls. That’s disrespecting all those that don’t.

        Watch this space.

    • speed1

      I’m just not sure why the FFB is not as pro as the driver feedback is praised how valuable it is to replicate the most authentic real driving experience.

      Maybe the driver feedback is inaccurate because they perceive the thing’s somewho wrong, and or if the driver feedback was so usefull why the FFB in all current gen sim games still leave a lot to be desired.

      Driving a car and to let people believe they would controle a car in a virtual environment starts with the steering simulation in my opinion, and not how the car behaves, when actually the steering simulation is a joke.

      Sorry but when i feel how the steering wheel does not behave natural than i can’t really give much credit on the whole “replicating most authentic car driving experience approach” thing.

      Of course the toys can’t replicate the real steering forces, but the behaviour should be right, at least.

  • EZehnder

    ITT: Armchair coding and physics “experts” that won’t trust experienced racing car drivers and also won’t trust established sim developers (GTR series anyone?) even when given total access to discussions.

    Our hobby is doomed.

    • Mark Quigley

      Doomed!

      • LogiForce

        Sir…

  • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

    The other interesting facet that flies in the face of programming is the fact that Ben and Nic disagree on certain aspects of some cars handling. So as a dev, how do you deal with this? Surely if all the REAL racers were simply “OMGJIZZCARZRAINBOWS” about the game they’d all agree which each other all the time because they’re both good drivers and know what they’re talking about. Like when we all do….oh but thats right…they don’t do that.

  • Richard Schouteren

    After reading this document its hard to take the physics serious, if they are not based on telemetry its just a bunch of guesstimate! 400 pages of it.

    • ModernTimes2

      There are other discussions on WMD where telemetry is extensively used and discussed to pinpoint grip levels and tyre temps.

      • pez2k

        Indeed, the drivers make sure the feel is right, while the guys working on the physics engine can benchmark themselves to make sure that the ranges of numbers are right. That’s the trick, managing both aspects – you can feasibly have cars that hit the exact laptimes and cornering speeds but just feel wrong or vice versa, and neither will be realistic.

      • Richard Schouteren

        Thanks for pointing out didnt know that. Agree its not a matter of numbers only, I do think the approach to feedback is not really pragmatic.

    • MontoyaVR

      Car behavior can’t be analyzed purely on telemetry, there’s an element to it that can’t be transported just by looking at graphs.

      That’s why you frequently see drivers talking to their engineers or other drivers using their hands & facial expressions to describe what the car is doing on track, even in highly technical racing series like Formula One or WEC where there’s a gazillion values of data being recorded.

    • LogiForce

      The Physics devs have the hard data from the manufacturers and they can sync the game telemetry to that. It’s those last loose ends that needs the professional driver and community feedback.

      A Physics engine is by far not a 100% accurate representation of nature and natural behavior after all. This is due to the fact that calculating everything exactly takes one or more supercomputers to calculate everything in real-time, and that’s only Physics. We still have graphics and sound to deal with as well.
      We are still far away with that level of calculation power in our simple home computers, but maybe it will have been massively improved 10 years from now. Until than we are very limited on computer resources and will have to tweak the final behavior characteristics into the ballpark.

      • QUF

        you don’t have to represent all nature and natural behavior of everything in this planet or universe. You only have to create physics through calculations and formulas/algorithms related to driving a car, things that happen inside a car and the tyres. Then you connect that to physics, stuff like gravity formula/principle etc..

      • HardRock

        If it’s that simple then why do you think it is that the physics of pretty much all sims are tweaked for years, even past release?

      • QUF

        Never said it was simple, but even not being simple I think what I said remains valid.

    • Jay Ekkel

      That is just not right IMO, numbers are only half of the experience. The other half is making the numbers deliver a driving experience that is believable. And that is something numbers cant tell you, you need experience drivers for that.

      I rather have a believable car in any game with wrong numbers, then a car with the right numbers that drives like like a turd.

      • Chris Wright

        Nice to get a developer’s perspective on this.

        The whole debate of pCars’ pro drivers’ opinions possibly being compromised in some way has to be the most controversial aspect of community discussion in 2014. Clearly it has struck a chord with SMS who have now seen fit to make this extensive documentation public.

        Last time I looked, SMS wasn’t a registered charity, so you would expect any driver in their development program to be paid consultancy fees – that’s just standard business practice. Why this has to mean that their every utterance of feedback is shallow and meaningless hype is totally beyond me.

        Anyone who has been using pCars since the earliest days will know how far it has come. In the last few months it has really started to make progress in the driving model. I’d go as far as to say SMS appears to be taking a non traditional approach to physics, with the result that pCars has a pretty unique driving feel of its own. Like every sim, some will not like that, but can’t we at least respect that it would be far worse if drivers were left out of the picture altogether!

  • Rodrigo Borba

    If a developer is not able to test the cars to improve qualitatively your feddback, I think the experience is lost enough, it is more difficult to explain to a layman how to proceed, what a developer without driving skill to get feedback right.

    So I love the work that Kunos been doing, they just dive head first into the world of possibilities.

    • ModernTimes2

      Not entirely sure what you’re trying to say in your first paragraph… Not in your second either for that matter 🙂

  • Steggesepp

    It’s really sad to see so much people writing so much foolish things. What the hell is wrong with you?

    It seems that here are a lot of pro-divers that know how to develop a physics engine. Why don’t you start develop one -> you would get rich! Do you really think it’s done with putting some algorithms into the engine and take some serious data from manufacturer? Yeah it’s so easy .. did you already know that not every natural behaviour is 100% exact calculable? There is no finished algorithm for “gumgum”-tyre-behaviour .. you have to find out what are the right numbers. The only thing you often have is some graphs, some numbers of documents but that doesn’t mean that they fit into the algorithm you’ve designed.

    It’s much more imporant that you have experienced people who can “feel” the behaviour and can describe what has to be changed. The developer now knows which variable he has to change to get more into the desired direction (sure the developer itself has to learn too, what variables change what behaviour -> this is a learning process!)

    If you start a sim, what do you first? I think you take a car and test its feeling and not look at any algorithms.

    The strong weapon of their engine are the algorithms, the detail which they can simulate -> but those details have to be right, and not every detail (algorithms, numerical data) is already written down in the “holy racing sim formulas bible”. You have to research them by own. A lot of research is “driving experience” and there are coming N. Hamilton and more which SUPPORT the devs. The devs itself have driving experience too, they have to, otherwise they would not understand what the pro-drivers are talking about.

    Back to telemetry -> Telemetry is already used to check whether the tyres temperature are ok, endurance behaviour of the car, believable g-forces, downforce, fuel consumption etc. etc.. You still do not see everything.

    SMS is doing so much to give you (the interested sim racer!) an insight into the project and the only thing you’re interessted in is PISSING.

    • Johnny Penso

      Simple answer to your first question. It’s easier to tear things down than to build them up. I also don’t get some of the vitriol directed at SMS and PCars. Sure, we should take anything we hear from a hired driver with a grain of salt, but in this case, they seem to be highly critical and specific in their feedback from the many pages I read. In the end, the product that hits the shelves will determine it’s success of failure, not the pre-release hype and I for one am really looking forward to see what they have come up with. I honestly think a lot of guys that have invested a ton of time in older sims are just jealous that they either don’t have the equipment to run Project Cars or are bitter that the sim they have put so much time and effort into, will now look very ancient compared to Project Cars. Just my opinion of course.

      • Steggesepp

        It seems it’s like football, you gonna support your team you feel attracted to and gonna dislike any other team without having any objective reason why. You will always find a reason to dislike the others or to push the own team up.

  • LukeMaple

    I haven’t played it in a really long time, probably 400 builds or so I went straight to what I know best, (the Karts) and was actually really pleasantly surprised. It felt very good I haven’t found it to be good in any sim ever til now, I wouldn’t say it’s authentic 100% but probably the closest I have experienced, it was addictive and just kept lapping! I am keen to try out other vehicles now too. My RL experience is not massive, just a couple low powered single seaters and FWD tourers and a v8 supercar.

    What is the situation with the modding of this game? I can’t remember what the verdict was but if they could include some real kart circuits that would be great too.

    • Steggesepp

      I’m not 100% sure but this are real kart tracks?

      -> As far as I remember, modding will not be included and it’s one point I really -like-

      • Johnny Penso

        Off the top of my head, Dubai and Spa are real circuits, Summerton, Glencairn and Chesterfield are fictional but they do really feel and look like real kart circuits.

    • Sim Antics

      The Karts in fact are starting to really make a strong showing. rF2 has a great Kart as does GSC extreme and the Kart in pCars is night and day improved compared to where it once was. All these pave the way for stand alone title Kart Sim.

      • Johnny Penso

        You mean Project Kart Sim?

      • Sim Antics

        No Zach Griffin’s Kart Sim title.

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