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More on The 2 Foot Magic Save Hax

More on The 2 Foot Magic Save Hax issue that stirred up a lot of controversy in the community.

Three days ago, I posted a story on a physics exploit in iRacing that allows saving spins by applying full pressure on the both the throttle and the brakes.

Called the “2 Foot Magic Save Hax”, the issue already raised some ruckus in the iRacing forums before I decided to post a story on it. As usual, VirtualR took a neutral stance on the issue as the idea was to let you, the reader, decide on how serious the issue is using a video provided that shows the problem in effect.

Instead, the story caused on the biggest shitstorms in the history of VirtualR as almost 300 comments have piled up in the initial story, ranging from rational discussion to wild accusations of all kind.

To put this issue to rest, here’s some follow up material on the issue as physic experts Niels Heusinkveld of Reiza Studios and Kunos Simulazioni’s Stefano Casillo have weighed in on the issue.

[toggle title=”Click Here to read Niels’ statement”]While I don’t think iRacing is nearly as realistic as it should be, this behavior isn’t that strange or magic. To some extend, the engine power cancels out the braking that is done at the rear. Say this is achieved perfectly, then you have a 100% front brake bias, with free rolling rear tires.

The front tires are locked, so regardless of steering, they produce contact patch force perfectly in the opposite direction the car is traveling. Even at 25 degrees car yaw angle, the front tire force is mainly longitudinal (braking). Rear tires purely rolling produce virtually only lateral (cornering) force.

Which way will the car turn? Well its kinda simplified but calculate the torque each tire grip puts around the car center of gravity. Both the rear tires produce lateral force, which both create great rotation potential. The front tires create less yaw torque around the car center of gravity because they are braking more than turning. Result? The car will straighten out.

The results will vary a lot because in each gear, you change the driving torque at the rear wheels yet the braking torque is the same maximum in each gear. I guess in 6th gear, you can’t keep the rear wheels from locking up and the car will rotate more and possibly spin out. In 1st gear at low speed, perhaps the driving torque is much greater than the braking torque, so you still get big wheelspin, which acts kinda the same as a locked tire (no lateral grip), so you may spin out too.

It is likely to work in quite a few cars in quite a few sims. The only “bug” is us, self proclaimed simracers approaching it like a game, doing things you would never do in real life… I needed a gamepad to try this out as I can’t get my feet to do this, even in a simulator![/toggle] [toggle title=”Click Here to read Stefano’s statement”]Some thoughts about the issure;

I hope you all realize that the car will align itself to have the side with less grip “forward”, ie, in the direction of travel. 2 simple way to prove it: get a pen a throw it on the floor, it’ll rotate in a pretty random fashion. Now stick a rubber to one side of the pen and repeate; the pen will always stop rotating straight away, align to the direction of travel with the rubber end BEHIND. The hard way to test this is to get in a parking lot, get some speed, hands off the steering wheel, pull the hand brake and woooosh, ur rear end will end up where your nose was pointing. Simple reason is that the rear tyres locked up loosing much of their directional grip. I hope we all agree about this.

So let’s apply the hand brake thing in reverse, to our front tyres, if they lock up first what is it going to happen? Racing school will teach you that the car “won’t turn with locked front tyres”.. that is right, but it is only part of the story, actually, locked front tyres will align the car into the direction of travel; that is a more complete description.

So if you manage to lock your front without locking your rears you will save pretty much every slide, even a 180 degress slide (remember the car reaction with the hand brake? it swapped ends).

On to the sims now… how come it is so easy to get into this situation of locked fronts and unlocked rears in the sims? Let’s see some of the reasons:

– Brake pedal resolution. In real life, brakes work with pressure and the limit is strength you have in ur foot. In a sim, the brake pressure is determined by a pedal position, with a definite minimum and maximum. The maximum is often set to maximise the control and usage of the brake pedal in normal situations. If a real car has a potential braking torque of X but this (as it often is the case) overpower the tyres potential grip the sim is often set to have the maximum a little above the tyre limit. This avoids having that terrible feeling of locking tyres as soon you touch the brake. It is often the case that this value is not enough to lock the rear tyres (more rotational inertia, more grip and all that stuff) so you get that behaviour you condemn. In real life this would be probably a “PANIC” manouver, just hit the brake as hard as you get.. but there is no “maximum” in real life, so it would be impossible to reproduce it in a constant way as in the sims. In RL you’ll have to find the right pressure needed to lock the fronts and not the rears.. and consistently repeat this in a PANIC situation. Still asking yourself why nobody really bothers teaching this stuff? In RL you fix it the right way ™: you avoid the spin in the first place 😉

– Setup. If we get a 100% front brake bias, we’ll be able to save pretty much every slide. Is it cheating? No, it’s just stupid! it means we’re giving up optimal brake distribution (thus, lap times) to save our asses when we make a mistake. No driver nor engineer in with a sane brain would even think about this.

– Finally, potential software bugs. It happens, I’ve been there all my life 😀 . It’s important to make sure a rear tyre at high slip angles will lock instantly even with very low braking torque. But heavy front biased braking and gas on will still save the slide if the brake pedal maximum is set too low.

Want to prove all these things right? Get in your favourite sim and set the brake gain as high as you can ( you should be able to lock tyres with 20% brake pressure) then slide, brake hard and watch the car completing the spin slowly coming to a stop ;), just as we see on TV.[/toggle]

Furthermore, peichp2k has put together a video, trying to show the same effect in various simulations. As with the original story, it’s your turn to make up your mind on the issue based on the material provided, hopefully this issue can now be debated without turning into a “simulation a vs. simulation b” issue once again.

  • Undastir Pushin

    Thank You, although you only have it tied to iRacing, and not all the sims shown.

    • Cosmos

       hmmm did you see the video and the phrase ” peichp2k has put together a video, trying to show the same effect in various simulations” ?

      i hope this goes someway to pleasing those that thougt montoya was biasd.  reading some of the previous thread, it is a disgrace all the attack he got for posting that news and the comments the moderator had to deal with even though he was trying a bit too hard to keep some of you people in check.   i’m sure it wasnt easy to control that situation with all the assucations and negative comments.
      shitstorm is right cos it was.   well done to montoya for balancing the story out here.

  • Steve

    As an iRacing member I actively avoid the forums as they are, by and large, populated with some of the whiniest maggots I’ve ever had the misfortune to come across in this community.

    Intriguing glitch. I’d never noticed it. Doubt I’m talented enough to even do it.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t blame you 🙂
      The ‘glitch’ is easy to pull off in certain cars. I used to be able to do it with some GT cars when I played GTR Evolution. Just a simple case of slamming both pedals when the slide starts.
      I needed to be quick though, proper countersteering would have probably worked too.

  •ć/1531230449 Pera Pecony Jovanović

    “The biggest shitstorm in the history of VirtualR”.
    Can’t be said more right. 😀

  • spamsac

    The problem with this whole issue is that people can’t be bothered to read. They pick this bit or that and be done with it. The words of Stefano and Niels (and perhaps of most relevance, though for some reason overlooked, those of Todd Wasson in the iRacing thread; seriously people, that guy knows what he’s talking about) explain the physics behind the behaviour being shown.

    However, this whole issue has brought to light problems that are there in iRacing. It is in the telemetry. With all wheels locked, applying throttle is causing reactive torque on the chassis from the drivetrain that shouldn’t be there.

    There are some people saying “Well Niels and Stefano said this, so it’s all ok”, and others just dismissing the behaviour as wrong because they don’t understand physics. The truth is somewhere in the middle. There is a solid, irrefutable argument for why the simultaneous application of throttle and brakes causes can the spinning car to realign (to some degree at least, and provide the rear tyres aren’t locked) with the direction of travel. If you don’t understand the reasoning behind this, that doesn’t make it wrong or incorrect. But also those arguments for the physics behind the behaviour don’t suddenly make it all ok. As mentioned above, there is evidence in the telemetry that something is wrong. Stefano and Todd themselves say this when they look at the telemetry. It’s there in the thread for all to see.

    I just wish people would read a bit more of what has already been written before wading in with ill-thought out arguments and statements. Since this “news” story has come to light, I don’t actually think a single positive thing has been added to the discussion. The discussion that already existed before this was posted over here had the “problem” presented, a discussion about it, all of the relevant physics discussed, and location of a damning piece of evidence in the telemetry that *something* is wrong and speculation over what might be causing it.

    If people can’t be bothered or don’t have the time to read the full thread, I suggest just go through it and read Stefano and Todd’s posts. Until iRacing address the issue and say something about it, there isn’t really a whole lot more to add.

    Funky behaviour in sim shocker; it’s hardly front page news guys!

    • Anonymous

      However, this whole issue has brought to light problems that are there in iRacing. It is in the telemetry. With all wheels locked, applying throttle is causing reactive torque on the chassis from the drivetrain that shouldn’t be there.’

      could you expand on this further? 

      i dont really understand or care about this phenomenon in simracing to be honest…….simracing is a game, and if anyones driven a real racing car on a track (as i have) they’d know that real race cars are actually much easier to drive on the limit, and much more forgiving, with a lot more grip. 

      so i dont treat simracing games as simulators….i treat them as games. and try to have fun with them. 

      i am curious though – which is why it would be good if you could expand on what you said – and then whether it could actually be fixed? or how is it supposed to be programmed?

      • spamsac

        Unless the car is sliding at a 90 degree angle to the direction of travel (i.e. a car is sliding completely sideway), you will get more grip from a rolling tyre than a locked one. For the sake of arguement, consider a car with 50/50 weight distribution and identical tyres on all for corners (i.e. the same level of grip at each corner). Apply throttle and brake at same time (if you apply correct amounts) and the torque from the engine to the wheels will be greater than the braking force, and you can lock the front tyres and keep the rears moving, therefore more grip at rear than front, and so the rear of the car effectively drags behind the front, causing the car to align with the direction of travel. This is the basic physics argument behind the why throttle and brake could straighten a car.

        In the telemetry, it can be seen that a car sliding with all 4 wheels locked experiences a change in pitch when the throttle is applied, shifting weight to the rear, thus increasing rear end grip and so causing the alignment to occur. However, with the rears locked, the application of throttle isn’t causing any forward movement of the car due to drive (as obviously the driven wheels are locked!), so there is no acceleration to cause the shift in weight. The only alternative is that there is some sort of reactive force to the drivetrain. However, the drivetrain isn’t moving, so this doesn’t make any sense.

        Since iRacing doesn’t allow stalling (and many run auto clutch and other such gubbins), it “should” be the case that with the driven wheels locked and throttle applied that the clutch is being used, leaving the engine to spin and not stall, but nothing else (such as the rear axle/wheels etc.). The engines in question are longitudinally mounted, so any torque generated would cause roll on the chassis (think big V8 engined cars revving up and the car twisting as a result, or what happens when you rev in GPL).

        With the driven wheels locked, applying the throttle is for some reason causing the car to pitch rearwards. This makes no sense. So why is it happening? I can only assume it is something to do with the drivetrain modelling in iRacing. Perhaps when the autoclutch kicks in, it isn’t cutting the torque through the drivetrain at the point of the clutch as it should, but instead somewhere else along the way. For this to be the case, it would probably have to be at the wheels.

        Now this doesn’t mean that the 2 Foot Magic Flying Unicorn or whatever it is called is wrong per se (the physics arguments still stand for the instances in which they are being discussed; that is locked fronts, rotating rears, though it certainly seems pretty extreme in a number of sims), but when all 4 wheels are locked there is evident behaviour that doesn’t make sense from a physics point of view. One of the most important bits of discussion on this topic (by Stefano) was about potentially why this occurs in a sim and not in real life. He raised a number of factors, to do with input devices, set up, braking precision and so on. It isn’t as clear cut as many seem to make it.

        Either way, I’ll just continue to drive a sim car like I would a real one, and others can do as they please.

      • Emil Ytterberg Blixt

        There are big differences between sims too. Some more realistic than others.. iRacing has a lot of strengths but for pure driving experience, I look elsewere. 

    • Anonymous

      Firstly, big thumbs up to Montoya for following up on the original story.  This definitely puts to bed any doubts about bias.  You’ve taken a lot of flak, from myself included, and this is a good way to shut us all up.

      This effect definitely occurs in all sims, although as spamsac points out there does appear to be an additional force exaggerating the effect in iRacing.

      I’ve included the telemetry screenshot that highlights this, you can clearly see that when full brakes are applied, with all 4 wheels locked, apply full throttle applies an unexplained correcting yaw force.  One suggestion is that it is due to engine torque as the RPMs increase, although supposedly the RPMs do not increase, which rules this out.

      I don’t know how much this contributes to the effect, perhaps it is only minor.  Everyone is waiting to hear back from iRacing staff to get their opinion on the phenomenon.

    • Niels Heusinkveld

       If Todd had something to say its likely to make more sense than what I said. If it was in the public thread, can you copy his posts here perhaps?

      • spamsac

        Hey Niels.

        Bit frantic right now (10 days to finish thesis…) and he says a lot.

        In a nut shell he states the same physics argument that Stefano, yourself and I have made. He goes into more detail about tyres, slip angles and so on (a lot of which is in a conversation with someone else).

        If someone else doesn’t pick out the key bits in the mean time, I’ll do it when I have a little more time 🙂

      • Justin ForzaBarça Cruze

         Just a sample Neils 🙂

        “If you lock the front tires and not the rears then yes, there should be a
        tendency to straighten up the car in a real hurry because the lateral
        force on the fronts vanishes pretty quickly. I think Eric Hudec already
        said that. The tendency for that to happen should decrease as the slip
        angle of the car is increased though. I.e., at small slip angles it
        should generally straigthen up quicker than it will at really big slip
        angles. This is one way I check to see how good a tire model in a sim
        is and try to get an idea what kind of tire model it’s using. If the
        front tires are locked and the car continues to track a circle even
        slightly, that can mean the limit forces don’t act in quite the right
        direction. My first tire models years ago worked this way for quite
        some time so I’m a bit too familiar with the how’s and why’s of this

        Both the OTM and NTM passed this test with flying colors, by the way.

        Another way to put this is that if you’re turning left and lock up
        the tires, the yaw acceleration should accelerate the rotation of the
        car to the right until it’s straight. Yaw velocity returns to 0 and
        might overshoot the other way just a bit before coming back. The
        question is how large that yaw acceleration should be. What appears to
        have been uncovered in this thread is this pitch torque effect that
        exaggerates that yaw acceleration. Generally speaking this would mean
        the car straightens up, but it does it too quickly in iRacing. Eric in
        another thread (quoted here too somewhere I think) also pointed to the
        tire lateral forces possibly dropping a bit too quickly with slip ratio,
        which would increase that yaw acceleration on top of it.

        So the behavior is right in the fundamental sense that the yaw
        acceleration should reverse if the fronts lock and the rears don’t, and
        depending on the brake bias and a few other things I won’t get into, it
        could also theoretically happen when all four tires are locked. It
        appears right now to be exaggerated a lot because of the above effects.
        One car might not reverse course at all while another one would, but I
        think what I would take away from all this is that it’s probably
        exaggerated in the iRacing version of a particular car.

        And of course my typical blame for just about everything is
        excessive drop off in force after the peaks. This will exaggerate it
        too. They seem to be reigning that back in a tad as the builds come out
        though. So there are three areas here I could point to for this one,
        and by Eric’s comment they’re already aware of at least one of them.”

        And the full essay(s):

      • spamsac

        Thanks for bringing that over Justin.

        As I have said many times before, Todd really is the guy in the know when it comes to tyres. He is an asset to the community and always very open in sharing theory and explaining things. If people paid more attention to the likes of Todd and carefully read his posts, a lot of unproductive discussion could be avoided.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t really understand the big deal about this, it seems like such an unnatural behavior to do when you’re actually in an intense race.

  • Mojo66

    I agree mostly with what Niels says. Although applying full brake and throttle at the same time is equal to 100% front brake bias, it isn’t true that the rear wheels are rolling free. They are instead turned by the engine torque at the drive shaft minus the torque from the brakes. But maybe he just wants to say that the rear wheels aren’t locked, which is essentially why the car straightens itself in the end. It is like applying full throttle and opposite lock in a FWD car to get the car out of a spin.

    I believe that the reason this is not used in real life, at least to my knowledge, is that in most sims cars rotate around the center of gravity, which tends to apply too much lateral momentum to the rear wheels and thus makes cars tending to oversteer more than in reality. 
    In reality, turning the steering wheel does not make the car rotate around its CG. The front wheels receive much more angular momentum than the rears, the rear wheel contact patch receives less lateral momentum hence real cars understeer more than all the cars I’ve seen in sims, except for Indy Car Racing by Papyrus, the only sim I know which does simulate this correctly.
    Which means that the rear wheels of real cars need much more lateral momentum in order to switch from static to dynamic friction. Which means that in real life, once the rear of a RWD car steps out, it can’t be saved by any driver input.

  • Michael Gribble

    Thank you Montoya, respect meter has returned to normal 🙂

  • Skytrill .

    Thanks to the one who toke the time to make/upload this video.
    Personally I like the way NKP handles it.

  • Anonymous

    OK fresh topic, fresh day, fresh mind.

    I am just posting because I want to apologise to everyone for being so heavy-handed towards a few people in the previous thread and also apologise to those who I might have pissed off in the process. 
    Sorry to anyone else who had to read through all that stuff too.
    I’m not saying that I thought they didn’t deserve it at the time (and lets face it, some did deserve what they got back.) but clearly the way the article was presented was upsetting and indeed personally offending some people as it seemed to them to be one-sided and not offering the whole story (which I don’t think Montoya might have been aware of at the time he posted it).

    Even now, with my belief that there was no bias behind posting that thread because I don’t believe Montoya is the type to be like that,  I’m not sure why it was such the sensitive issue it became.
    But I can understand that a lot of sim-racers are passionate and lets face it, sensitive, themselves 🙂
    (I include myself in that of course).

    As for me, well it was just so annoying and frustrating to AGAIN see the ‘bias’ card being played from some people and it really fuelled my fire particularly after I warned people against those accusations. So I was on a roll trying to put out fires all over that thread with people left, right and centre making accusations, trolling comments and flamebaiting. It all was a bit overwhelming and I responded accordingly.  Not to mention personally having a pop at me.   I guess I deserved some of that but definately not all. 
    I suppose I wouldn’t make a very good therapist which is a releif because I’m not here to dish out therapy 🙂

    No one teaches you how to be a moderator and most of you know I have a strong character, am very strongly opinionated and I don’t walk away from a fight.  I’m kinda on my own when these situations blow up and the whole thing in the other thread just snowballed and I rolled along with it.   Holding my own in an argument and giving back as good as I get isn’t a problem for me but my main concern wasn’t really to go around pissing people off or fuelling any fires but just to respond to people who were making the accusations which I feel are totally false and those that just wanted nothing more than to troll.

    I’m sure my apology will fall one some deaf ears but I hope not too many and it is nevertheless sincere.  I also hope we can put it behind us and I will try to not be so hot-headed in future.

    But guys please,  I am a moderator and as such it is my job to uphold certain guidelines and I WILL do that even if it means censoring those that refuse to behave.  Many people visit here and it has to be a place where they can come and not have to read stuff like that.  
    You know me, I’m all for debates and discussions that can get heated or people going at it with their opposing opinions.  I don’t mind people criticising or having negitve opinions on stuff, it’s what makes the world go around. But please all I ask is that you just respect each other and treat people like you expect to be treated.  I shall endeavour to do likewise

    So please, no personal insults or bullying, no excessive foul language and no posts that are deliberately there just to troll or flamebait.       Help me to help you.   
    My sole purpose to becoming a mod was to try and stop these explosive incidents and it really isn’t my intention to be fuelling it.    Also I would ask you to please learn to separate my opinion from my moderator status here.   My only loyalty here is to keeping VirtualR free of… well.. the rule-breaking posts.

    Happy sim-racing guys.


  • Anonymous

    It’s easy to see what makes this volatile. Something of a departure for normal stories, as individual forum threads are rarely newsworthy. An issue few understand and many misrepresent. The issue itself can be broken down into the 2 wheel locked situation which every sim reacts to, and the 4 wheel locked iRacing specific issue, meaning plenty of room for misinterpretation through intentional misrepresentation to push an agenda. Add all this to the fact that sim racers aren’t known as greatly understanding and rational people…

    Glad to see this new discussion, and a slightly more level headed-ness about the discussion. There will always be trolls, but at least some of us can be rational. Here’s hoping the physics glitch causing the 4 wheel lock save can be fixed in a timely manner.

  • Justin ForzaBarça Cruze

    I was wondering why you don’t see this technique used in real life (1st corner spins at Canada this weekend for instance, should have been easy to save with 2FMSH. Noob F1 drivers! ) but Stefano’s explanation goes some way towards explaining that.
    Atleast with potentiometer brakes anyways. I’m still confused as to why this exploit would work with load cells given they work with force as opposed to pedal position?

    Anyway, imo there’s still some exaggeration going on with this behaviour in some sims…….hopefully the devs have a closer at it now that its gotten some much needed community attention.
    I see a lot of people playing the “oh it doesnt make you faster, therefore it’s not a exploit” card BUT being able to drive like a madman knowing you have that safety net of 2FMSH is an exploit.

    • Anonymous

      it works with loadcells too because it has nothing to do with how you apply the brakes but with how the sim “reads” the brake input, it goes from 0 to a maximum
      and you cant go beyond that no matter if you use a potentiometer or a loadcell brake. Stefano said that the maximum is often the point where you just locked your brakes, and that makes sense, that way you have most of the travel of the brake pedal to work with.

      In real life with a car with no abs you can go far above what the sims take as the maximum and completely lock your brakes no matter how much you can push the gas pedal, or the other way around and have to much speed difference in the tires and that way it wont stop the spin since it was what caused it in the first place.

      It will be very difficult to the “2 feet recovery” in real life, in theory you can do it but the presicion needed to do it is too much even to do it with the intention to prove the point, now try to do it in a panic moment because you lost the car 🙂

      • Justin ForzaBarça Cruze

        Understood 🙂

        I just did some testing in NKP and it does appear Stefano hit the nail on the head.
        Playing around with the brake bias, it’s quite obvious that the 2FMSH is almost entirely dependent on the rear brakes not locking up. As soon as the rears lock the entire concept implodes which, as you say, might explain why its so difficult in reality.

      • Anonymous

        Right, and the actual glitch is in iRacing it works with 4 tires locked as well. People missing that get the debate wrong.

      • spamsac

        It isn’t quite as simple as to say it shouldn’t happen with all 4 tyres locked; the fronts could still be giving up more grip than the rears, so the same principals apply (just to a lesser extent since the grip differential between front and rear tyres would be less).

        The effect with all 4 tyres locked is exaggerated due to the mysterious pitching caused by throttle application; this is the real “bug” to come out of all of this.

        A lot of the discussion is theory; it is not as black and white as “this or that will happen”, it is more “the principal is this or that”. It could happen. It makes sense for these reasons etc. What actually should (as in real life) happen comes down to many, many factors; weight distribution, tyre temps and a whole lot more. It is car and set up dependent, and isn’t a simple one size fits all issue. That isn’t something that can be covered easily.

        No tyre model is perfect, and it is logical the flaws/errors/discrepancies (or whatever you want to call them) can cause some “odd” behaviour beyond the simple not enough grip in a turn or under braking etc.

        The bottom line is there is a physical argument for why applying brakes and throttle at the same time, locking the fronts but not the rears, causes a car to realign. With all 4 tyres locked, it could still happen, but the “basic” argument then depends on a lot more variables, and starts being anything but basic.

        It appears there are problems (largely to do with tyre drop off at high slip angles) exaggerating the effect. But the telemetry traces showing pitching (and thus grip increase at the rear, and so exaggerated self-aligning of the car) with throttle application and locked rear tyres is the only concrete “flaw” that has can stated as of now, as far as I am aware and understand.

      • Anonymous

        Right, I oversimplified a tad. Like you said, the yaw on throttle is the issue for 4 tires locked. When all four tires are locked, it shouldn’t matter what the driver does with the throttle. Of course, at that point the car should have stalled, so maybe that’s part of the issue.

        But yes, the issue is the distinction usually isn’t being made most of the time. It’s either “the same thing happens in every sim”, or “this only works in iRacing”. It’s somewhere between, it happens in one additional instance on iRacing than most other sims.

      • spamsac

        Yup. Well, it may happen in other sims; it needs telemetry output (see comment some way below by iceicebaby123, who helpfully attached the telemetry output from the iRacing forums) 
        rather than just a video. 

        As you say, the car should stall with the driven wheels locked and no clutch application (obviously there are exceptions like the anti-stall fitted to F1 cars), so this is undoubtedly playing  a part in this scenario. Quite why is a different matter, and it comes down to some facet of how the transmission system is being modelled.

        Transmission modelling is an area that I think still leaves a lot to be desired. nKPro had the best implication I’ve ever driven, but I believe they toned it down somewhat due to public demand (could be wrong here, but I seem to remember hearing that). A shame. 

        I think nearly all sims could be improved significantly if some of the time spent trying to get the cars and engine as realistic as possible were focussed on forcing people to drive them realistically. There are obviously limits, but the sad truth is that the people playing the sims often complain about having certain realistic features implemented (hence we get toned down transmissions, no dirt on the windscreen in iRacing etc.) yet claim to demand absolute realism.

      • David BEHAL

        Exactly, this so called “hack” is just the result of a poor setup with far too much brake on front wheel.
        A good pilot making a good setup try to balance brake power between front and rear to have wheels locking almost at the same time with the same pedal pressure.
        With this king of setup this “hack” won’t work because all 4 wheels would lock at the same time.

        At the opposite peoples with poor driving skill (or on crappy sims which are unable to render front wheel grip/grip loose the way it have to be) prefer to have much more front brakes because they are unable to catch rear end snap caused by having little too much rear brake power.(or the crappy FFB is unable to make them feel correctly understeer/oversteer)
        With this kind of setups you can indeed see this kind of “hack” working.

        In real life pilots are, most of the time, good and the FFB is obviously good so there is very few chances that you can see this “hack” in action.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks for putting this up!

    PD: the channel is and i am Pablo Lopez 😛

  • Marcus Caton

    Now it’s a HAX!  😀

  • Zsolt Nagy
    • Lemming77

      Oh god, this magic hax has hacked it’s way into real life too! D:

    • spamsac

      In a sense a bit of a bad example, but conversely for the same reasons quite a good one.

      The reason I say “bad” example is that the 4 wheels don’t stay on the track; if you watch, the corrective yaw kicks in when the front tyres move onto the grass.

      The reason this is a good example is that it is effectively an exaggerated example of the behaviour being discussed. You are seeing what happens when more grip is removed from the front tyres than the rear: a corrective torque is applied, aligning the car with the direction of travel.

      • Anonymous

        correct as i saw it too! Games are based on theory, unfortunately we don’t understand everything about physics which is why it’s soo difficult to make simulations accurately at this stage!

    • Anonymous

      These videos of RL, that try and prove the Hax isn’t a flaw, are a poor joke!

  • Anonymous

    You dont seem to understand – or more likely ignoring – why it became a shitstorm, Montoya. You posted the story about a bug/feature in a sim without knowing it exists in more or less all of them, and now state 
    “hopefully this issue can now be debated without turning into a “simulation a vs. simulation b” issue once again.”

    For me it has nothing to do with iRacing, its more the fact that an employee of a sim software company deciding to highlight a perceived flaw with a competitor on a supposedly neutral simracing news site. It was always going to look bad, and to be frank this is as weird as you posting a review of GTR3.

    • Anonymous

      That dosen’t make sense, I have to be able to point out flaws of other simulations without being accused of being biased. By that logic, I shouldn’t post about patches for other sims either because that points out there’s bugs in them, right?

      I said it again in the other topic. What makes this significant is the fact that iRacing runs so many high-profile events, that makes physic flaws a lot worse than in (let’s say) rFactor where it only hampers the fun of a few hobbyists. But with cash prizes and other stuff at stake, these issues become critical and as such news worthy.

      iRacing subscribers always pride themselves on using the best sim on the market so one has to wonder why people are so easily intimidated, smelling conspiracies around every corner and being completely unable to deal with criticism without resorting to petty accusations.

      I really don’t understand why my job has to be brought into this. I run VirtualR in my spare time, nobody at SMS has ever talked to me about what I do here and how I do it. Frankly, the company has bigger fish to fry than to worry about any of this stuff.

      I can’t do more than say again and again that I would have the exact same coverage if I had another job. I`ve never done a single story more or less because of it and if you seriously think that I would not have posted a hot-topic news story like this if I had another job than I can’t help you.

      Look at the past, VirtualR has always pointed out flaws like these, think of SimRaceWay, the WRC games etc. It’s not the first time I`ve been critical of other sims and it surely isn’t the last, I won’t be intimated into not posting interesting news just because a handful of people may consider it biased.

      I have nothing to blame myself for, pCARS coverage makes up for less than 10% of the weekly news around here, I’m still supporting rFactor 2, Reiza, AC etc. etc. If that’s not good enough for you then I’m sorry, it kind of feels like iRacing subscribers are the only ones that feel this intimidated by pCARS and my connection to it. It’s even more silly if you consider the fact that both sims go for a different demographic, the whole thing is just pointless.

      This is the last time I’m saying this, I’m done explaining myself…I`ve been 100% open about this from the start. Either accept it or don’t.

      • Anonymous

        You are saying iRacing subscibers are unable to deal with citicism about iRacing, I invite you to read the iRacing forums once in a while. You on the other hand are seemingly unwilling to see my point. This has nothing to do with pCARS or whatever number of news items are posted about it, its about journalism ethics and the failure to see why people get pissed off. If anything, this sites users have traditionally been rFactor users (and lately pCARS members) and anti iRacing, and anyone who are a iRacing member and still come here have to accept a fair bit of criticism just for vocally liking it.
        The point is not that you are working for SMS either, but rather that you present stuff like this as news WHILE working for SMS. Nobody are saying that SMS make you post negative stories about other sims – that would be news! – but rather that you should have considered your situation before posting it. The critical items about various stuff like WRC and Simraceway were before you worked for one of the developers, are you seriously not seeing the difference?Of course you can do what you want on your own blog, but we all know that there will never be a news item highlighting a bug or a problem in pCARS as long as you are employed by them. That is the problem.

        But fine, we just have to agree to disagree then.

      • Anonymous

        Of course there wouldn’t be a topic about bugs in pCARS because I wouldn’t know where to start, right now there’s a gazillion bugs in it and nobody’s denying that…. which is because it’s still a year away from release.

        If you can’t understand the difference between a software in pre-alpha stage and a finished product that is used for professional competitions then I don’t know what to say. Nobody expects pCARS to be a finished product but iRacing is pushing hard to be seen as the top shelf simulation that is closer connected to real racing than any other product. If you want to have that reputation you have to live with being under the magnifying glass.

        A physics bug like this in iRacing is simply a much bigger deal than in other racing games.

      • Anonymous

        Come on Montoya.. just yesterday I saw that Griff found a bug in a shader of pCARS.  You didn’t post a front page news item about it.  You’re just a paid flunky.

        I mean.. there were some yellow dots and such on the screen.  Seeing how pCARS is nothing but a screenshot product, you’d think that would be worthy of more attention.

      • Anonymous

         Nice first post, i’m one hundred percent sure it has been said time & time again, Pcars is pre-alpha, bugs are expected at that stage.

      • Big Ron

         Everybody who can find the sarcasm may keep it 🙂

      • Kris Baxter

        And your point is? Heck I see bugs in the graphics every time I race in Pcars, as I’m sure everyone does, it is not news, we all know it and see it. I also see them in Race07, a game that is not in pre-alpha, but we’ve all come to accept that as well. Making a news story out of a graphical glitch in Pcars would be difficult, where would you start? Every car and every track has a glitch.

        I for one didn’t know about the 2 foot issue, in iRacing or any game for that matter, but sure enough I tried it in Capri in Race07 on the weekend, and it works in that too, but perhaps its just not been discussed as much as it is in iRacing, afterall, I’d be pretty damn pissed off if I was paying a monthly sub for a game that has the same physics flaw that all games have.

      • Anonymous

        Well, that’s part of the problem with the sim racing community. There are people who will claim any sim (even SRW, pCARS, the unreleased AC, whatever) is perfect, no bugs at all.

        But yeah, I get the magnitude of the issue being larger in iRacing and more likely to be discussed. I think most of the backlash just came from how out of the ordinary a news posting about a forum post regarding a bug in a sim is on the site. If we heard about pCARS complaints about the Thrustmaster contest fast times being set with driving aids, or other similar controversies more often, this wouldn’t have ever blown up here.

      • Anonymous

        I appreciate your open and honest approach and wish you the best!

        However you did unfairly say that “IRacing subscribers always pride themselves on using the best sim on the
        market so one has to wonder why people are so easily intimidated,
        smelling conspiracies around every corner and being completely unable to
        deal with criticism without resorting to petty accusations.”

        You are talking about a handful of individuals but managed to summarise all people playing iracing! I assume that you yourself are not an iracing member? just out of interest is there any particular reason you are not a subscriber yourself?

      • Anonymous

        You’re right it is only a handful, thankfully, but don’t you think that’s just nitpicking here Luke ?

      • Anonymous

        I was more interested in finding out Montoya opinion on iracing? If he was a subscriber? If not what about it he doesn’t personally like?

      • Anonymous

        I’m no classical subscriber as such but I do have a press account to follow the forums and test the content.

        I like the FFB a lot, what keeps me from getting involved are two things. I really don’t have the time to get seriously involved in the online racing, I have little time to actually sim race as it is right now.

        Due to the limited time, I actually prefer offline racing as it’s more convenient, I can race the car & track I want whenever I want, without having to stick to somebody else’s schedule. Due to the missing AI, iRacing is a bit drab when it comes to offline racing, that’s why I’m rarely using it.

      • Anonymous

        I feel pretty much the same about it tbh, I’ve been hammering for AI in the forums for ages but it seems that alot of people prefer to keep it online only, I myself have only done about 3 online races in 2012, as yourself due to the scheduled races, I have no idea why they just dont run continuous races like LFS for example which for has the best pick up and play online racing about! 

        I openly will moan about having to purchase cars and circuits but one thing it does is make you appreciate is the work gone in to creating them and also makes you want to use the tracks you purchaseThere are a few things that keep me subscribing: Firstly and mostly the quality of the circuits is incredible and its consistent, yes you pay for them so they should be but they are worth every penny…its not like you cant get this quality in other sims but the laserscanning brings out the detail and feel of what its actually like going through a particular corner. Really really looking forward to pcars laserscanned MSV circuits, Cadwell Particularly…I would pay equivalent of iracing tracks for these as well…
        Secondly, the racing when you do squeeze it in is the best outside of league racing probably due to the SR system although that too has its flaws, it would be interesting to see if the upcoming sims try to introduce this kind of system, maybe at the server hosts discretion.Thirdly the continual development nature sees improvements every 12 weeks at a maximum, Il admit it has its share of issues…I’m a racing whore and just have to play every sim going and i love them all!

  • Anonymous

    NetKar and rF2 seem to deal with it alot better than the others do going from that video. Video should come with a warning btw, the hideous sound of pCARS nearly blew my headset with it’s distorted OTT sound.

    • Anonymous

      i did record with the same volume al sims, sorry for that :S

      • Anonymous

         pCARS is louder than the other sims 🙂
        At least through my speakers.  I always have to turn it down a little otherwise the neighbours think they’re sleeping next to Monaco tunnel.

  • Anonymous

    Last time i looked, the story was laid to rest, but this new post might keep it going for a while. 

    I guess media will always be media! As newspapers have shown us for years, Bad news attract more readers then good news.

    A good thing this is not as important as its looks.

    Lets continue with the SimRacing hobby, and lets all try to learn from our own mistakes.

  • Wayne Reed

    Has any one spoke with the devs yet or have they posted any thing about what they will try and do to fix it ?

    I only ask as this has been going on for almost a week now and wee all seem to have are view on what is right and wrong here.

    It would be nice to see what the guys and girls at iracing or any of the other sims are going to do to fix it.

    • Anonymous

      One of the staffers posted a guess on potential causes, but they usually don’t post unless they know what’s going on. Think he mentioned it may have been with antistall.

      The last big mystery bug was Q circles and Dave K made a blog post on it… after he found and fixed the underlying issue.

      • Anonymous

         I’d never heard of this Q-circles thing until recently but glancing through that article is, again, fascinating stuff.   Amazing to me how they even detected it as it was mere hundredths of a second.  How they didnt simply put it down to how the lap was driven.   I mean you can’t get exact laptimes every time right ?    Or am I missing something.

        I will read it more thoroughly later.

      • Anonymous

        It affected every track, but the only ones it mattered on (or was at least noticable) were super speedways (daytona and talledega). They’re flat out and easy to drive consistently, the, the first timed lap for qualifying was not up to speed yet, and the second and final lap was the slower one. Do 360 in the pits to make the second lap the fast lap.

        As DK said, it was reported as far back as GPL, but they never believed it to be more than statistical anomalies and placebo effect. Took multiple seasons of super speedway running to have enough evidence.

      • Anonymous

        Ah no wonder it got noticed then.  Well thankfully now the Q-circles as well as the crop circles have been explained 🙂

  • Anonymous

    Maybe the best way to fix this, is to make the clutch blow out, if it is used. Full brake plus full gas, equals boom!

  • Fernando Horta

    I don`t know why the fuss… it’s the same thing as in Codemasters F1 series, something almost every player there found about nearly 2 years ago, like in this video I posted in the distant September of 2010: 

  • Gerardo
    • Wayne Reed

      What is the point of that pic? Am I missing some thing?

      • Anonymous

         No. Theres’ nothing to miss there Wayne.  It’s as pointless as a broken pencil. 🙂

      • stenyak

        That’s the response of The Pirate Bay to the legal threats of iRacing, some years ago. You can read it all here:

      • Wayne Reed


  • Morgan Morand

    I donno we can compare this to iracing issue.
    Look the speed in these “examples” and the ‘iracing example”

    In my point of view, this examples don’t have irrealistic physics : in low speed, it can be true. In high speed like we saw with the iracing at sonoma, the effect is, from my point of view, too exagerated : with the F1 from iracing, you see the tyres retake grip instantly without any slide. It’s for me the issue i see instantly when i saw the : I agree that “montoya” shares this info from everyone. This can be discussed with constructive approach of your comments. But what i saw is just fanboys vs fanboys. I don’t think he was wrong with the previous post. No sim is perfect. Regards

  • Kevin Watts

    I think the
    fact this new article was posted underlines how the last one backfired on
    VirtualR. Far from taking a neutral stance many others not only here but in
    other sim racing circles certainly felt a bias being put across in the original
    article and in the ham-fisted attempts by the moderator to defend it and his
    churlish attitude towards visitors here. I don’t know why you are so surprised
    by this when people know of your links with a rival racing game developer and
    the controversy seen on this site in the past about the number of articles and
    their prominent placement regarding their game.

    I don’t
    recall seeing many articles plucked from an observation of an online forum
    discussion before. The “its only alpha” has worn so thin its nearly
    transparent. “It’s only alpha” but it’s seen to be in a fit enough
    state by its developers and Thrustmaster to run a hot lap competition using the
    current build. One of the reasons behind this expose was because iRacing runs
    competitions, well here’s one run by pCars which has the same exploit to win a
    $500 steering wheel and pedals – perhaps another reason why people are
    questioning your motives as an SMS employee.

    only alpha” has become the standard defence for any criticism levelled at
    pCars yet you ignore the very nature of iRacing’s development. As an online
    subscription based game, like many others whether it’s a racing simulation, a
    flight simulation or an FPS it’s in a state of perpetual development and thus
    never ‘finished’. If it were finished we’d just get some DLC car and track
    packs, the odd patch here or there and not the kind of continual improvement
    such as the new tyre model, new shaders, new sound system to name just a few of
    the systems overhauled since its release. As anyone would know who has played
    iRacing from the beginning the latest version is a huge leap from where it

    • Eric Zehnder

      Why are you bringing up Project CARS in a thread about an iRacing hack? It’s been a good discussion about how sims work with deep explanation coming from Kunos’ crew in past articles. It’s something people are talking about in the sim community so here’s an article about it.

      If you’d like to go bash Project CARS in a Project CARS thread feel free to. God knows the moderators of this forum are more than gracious in their patience with all the trolling.

      • Wayne Reed

        Eric F1Racer is a mod here. And he brought up PCARS because others have done so read all the posts and you will see that your self. And for the last time VR is not biased get that into your heads people

      • Anonymous

        Wayne, I think Eric was referring to Kevin Watts’ post, not mine 🙂

    • Anonymous

       Kevin, I think it’s fair to say that the nature of the topic caught some people off guard. Basically because it wasn’t a typical type of post you see on here.  Not that this type of post never happens, it’s just a rarity.
      The knee-jerk reaction from some people was to assume there was some ulterior motive behind the posting of the article.  They responded accordingly here and pulled no punches doing so.
      I reacted (or over-reacted) in kind because I felt that those accusations of bias needed addressing.   It may have been ham-fisted or churlish as you say, but when you have it coming from all sides like it was in the other thread, you can’t be expected to keep your cool while trying to deal with it all.  So yeah it got a bit out of hand. But it wasn’t one sided by any means !
      It was also difficult because people simply refused to believe, and some still do, that there was no bias, malice or any sinister reasons for Montoya posting that thread.    Some may now be convinced of that, others never will. 
      So I guess it was like talking to a brick wall sometimes.

      Your point about pCARS and the repeated use of the phrase ‘its an alpha’ is true but some people seem to need it drumming into them as they don’t seem to understand the concept of game development.  There are more things wrong with pCARS at this stage than any sim out there.  The reason for that is that very phrase.  There is no escaping from that fact.

      I believe you have a good point when you bring up the Thrustmaster competition.   It is a prize being given for people racing on a pre-alpha sim.  Fair enough.    But at the same time, whatever bugs pCARS has will be the same for all.   Personally I think the driving aids issue is something that should have been sorted out if there are clear advantages to running with them.
      Because then you either have a system in place where you can disable driver aids for the competition or you let anyone choose to run with them after being clear that there is an advantage doing so.   I would hate to be the one coming 2nd to a guy who decided to use a driver aid or two and gained the advantage over me because of it and won.    Is it my fault for not running with the same aids or my fault for not realising I would have had an advantage doing so ?

      Either way, none of that bears any relation to Montoyas motives.  I believe its naive of anyone to assume otherwise and if they do, in my opinion, they are dead wrong.  Some just want to ride that wave because they want the reaction from it or are iRacing fans who feel slighted by some supposed insinuation of the post.

      • Anonymous

        Good reply F1. I think alot of people can understand frustration when somebody quiestions your integrity. Keeping your cool would be hard but is the right way too prefent the debate from getting heated up. At least we got a debate about serious elements in simracing. Nice too see Montoya posting this article and clearing some things up. Tnx for that!

      • Anonymous

        Well if anything, I suppose it shows one thing we all have in common.  Passion for our hobby. 🙂

  • John Krisfalusci

    I suppose the real question here is.. what happens when you fully depress brake and full throttle at the same time in real life? I never tried it so honestly I don’t know. Does the engine blow after repeated attempts? Does the clutch pop out? I assume great engine damage after 2 or 3 uses and if so, why not implement that as a preventive measure into these simulations in the future? ^_^

    • Knee_Dragon

       Have you never performed or seen a stationary burnout in a RWD car? You hold the car in place by holding the brake to lock the fronts while you apply throttle to spin the rears.

      • Philip Samuelson

         I’ve done enough burnouts to know that the rear tires won’t spin with standard brake bias and the brakes fully depressed. If you tweak the brake bias, sure, but then in a race car, you’re going to lock up the front brakes most every corner.

        You’re point has validity, but quite frankly there are holes in your logic sir.

      • Anonymous

         Doesn’t do the tyres much good either 🙂

      • Dani .

        Burnout like a dumb!!  i like the smoke on my lungs!! or mmm what? loose money faster than in a casino?… 

  • Philip Samuelson

    Now I feel smart, because Mr. Heusinkveldsaid pointed out exactly what I did — Under what circumstance should one EVER place 100% input on both throttle and brake? Answer: Never. Approach it like a game, you just might get game-like results. Approach it like a race car, and it just might drive like a race car.

    Before I get hammered for being an iRacing nut — While I have used it before, I do not have a subscription nor do I intend to get one. It’s great for what it is, but quite frankly I got rid of dumb ass people racing online, saying stupid shit and racing like morons(I’d imagine some of them are the people going nuts on these VirtualR boards). I’m an all-offline racer or a private group racer. I wish I could get together 10-20 people who know how to race on a regular basis, but being in the US doesn’t generally lend a helping hand in making this happen. If iRacing had an AI model and an offline mode that was more than just practice, I’d be there. I don’t believe they have this, feel free to tell me otherwise, I really don’t know.


    • Eric Potvin

      No AI. But much easier to find leagues to run with 40 of your closest friends. 😉

  • Anonymous

    It’s easy to see why this is so devastating in Sims that race for money. Especially in iRacing, that penalizes spin-outs and such. While it may not save anything to individual lap times. It would or could subtract allot of time to long races. Races where lost time from spin outs or off track time, can be the determining factor in your placement on the finishing board.

  • Kevin Brigden

    What then makes me wonder, is that this technique is known to be used by FWD touring car drivers. I refer you to I think it was Jason Plato in the BTCC at Brands Hatch a few years back:

    In this instance, a boot full of throttle and a dab of left foot brake helped Plato pull the car straight. Now this is FWD but one has to extrapolate that the same or similar technique *may* be do-able in a RWD car. 

    My logic on this is thus, by simultaneously over-coming the available tractive force at both ends of the car the car essentially becomes a projectile released from an otherwise constrained arc… kind of like a hammer thrower at the Olympics. This gives the driver the ability to predict the direction of travel of his car and thus the time to calculate an escape route.

    • Anonymous

      Opposite direction, but same idea. Difference being this one the front tires pull the car in the direction they are pointed, the recovery depends on front tire direction. Locking the fronts and using RWD throttle to keep the rears unlocked means the rear is slowing the car more, so the front goes straight ahead faster and straightens the car.

  • StarFoXySxv550

    Congrats Montoya on the most epic blogpost quote I’ve ever seen here, or anywhere in recent times..

    “the story caused on the biggest shitstorms in the history of VirtualR”

    Priceless, I did literally lol

  • Dan Minton

    Dont understand what all the fuss is about…Every single sim/racing game ive ever played over the last 17 years has this weird brake throttle “foot magic save”.

    • Peter Munkholm

      And so does a real life rear-drive car. I used it myself on Nordschleife in a Ford Sierra several times.

  • Derek Speare

    If I understand this correctly, a guy doesn’t have to jam both feet to floor if his car goes into a spin.  Is this correct?  I thought it made more sense learn from the mistake to be better…cheats/hax/exploits are optional, right? 😉

  • Anonymous…ave-exploit-causes-controversy LOL

  • Anonymous

    Why do you continue to cancel my post?? In that article isn’t named any blog, is just a funny story! Stop to censure!

    • Anonymous

      What are you talking about? Nobody’s censoring anything and why would that be censored to begin with? 

    • F1Racer

      Don’t assume things without the facts.

      The posts you made didn’t get past the site softwares spam filter, which is why they didn’t appear.  It seems it happens sometimes when a URL is in the post.   OK ?

  • MotherDawg

    I understand that this is an old tread but I cannot believe what I’m reading.

    The 2 Foot Save is for real. I use it in real life.
    No magic, no hack… just another technique to save your arss.
    I do a lot of rallying, for many years, I’ve been left foot braking all the time. That is why it came easy to me. I learned about it in 1996. Jacques Vileneuve was interviewed on a save he did and talked about dropping both pedals.
    Later on, I read that since the Williams foot well was so small, the steering column was preventing him to apply the brake with his left foot. He had them add an extension that went around the column.

    Just another flagrant difference between MEN and boys. Between people who shoot BS with out single a clue of what they are talking about.