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Inside Project CARS Seta Tire Model

Slightly Mad Studios have released a very interesting technical article on the Seta Tire Model that powers their upcoming Project CARS title.

Slightly Mad Studios have released a very interesting technical article on the Seta Tire Model that powers their upcoming Project CARS title.

In the article, Slightly Mad Studios’ physics guru Andrew Weber describes all the features of Project CARS’ full dynamic tire simulation in detail:

Seta Tire Model Described

Seta Tire Model (STM) is a full dynamic tire simulation. Actually, it is three coupled simulations, one for the tire carcass, one for the tire tread and contact patch, and one for heat transfer simulation. It is also modular, where different carcass and tread simulations techniques can be used interchangeably. For example, off road racing may use a different tread simulation.

Carcass Simulation

The carcass simulation used in Project Cars is a finite element simulation with specific computational optimizations specific to real time tire simulation. The carcass is discretized into small connected “elements”, each one flexing and deforming due to forces.

Features:

  • Elastic behavior changes with speed, temperature, and pressure
  • Rolling resistance changes with speed, temperature and pressure
  • Sidewall buckling at low pressure
  • Bias Ply, Radial, or Hybrid construction
  • Gyroscopic Effects
  • Dynamic response such as vibration, telescoping, and twisting

Tread Simulation

The tread simulation used in Project Cars is a finite difference simulation of the contact patch, with the tire tread “flowing” through the contact patch. The whole tread itself is discretized into elements much like the carcass, but the contact patch itself is a finite difference grid.

Features:

  • Flash Heating, which is the change of temperature in the outermost rubber layer through the contact patch.
  • Componentized grip model. Each component is affected differently by road surface conditions, wetness, and temperature.
  • Deformation – the rubber deforming in and around asperities, resisting sliding motion.
  • Adhesion – the rubber bonding to surface rubber and material.
  • Tack – the sticky tacky grip you can feel on your shoes when walking a rubbered in track, related to adhesion.
  • Tearing – the ripping of rubber from the tire
  • Cut – grip from the geometry, edges, grooves, and siping of the tread, with particular effect in dirt and gravel
  • Tread channel depth and water handling.
  • Discretized and temperature sensitive wear
  • Curing
  • Temperature sensitive elastic properties

The carcass and tread simulations are coupled such that there is no roughness or “stepping”, while still preserving the detail of both simulations. The contact patch size, shape, and pressure distribution is determined by the carcass simulation and is used by the tread simulation. The forces on the tire from the road surface are simulated in the tread simulation and transferred as external forces to the carcass simulation.

Heat Transfer Simulation

The heat transfer simulation handling heat flow between brakes, wheel well, rim, carcass, and tread layers. The heat transfer amongst tread elements, from tread elements to the road surface, and from the tread elements to the air are handled directly by the tread simulation (including advection and evaporation). The pressure of the tire is maintained by the carcass simulation via the ideal gas law.

Emergent Effects

  • Most effects just “fall out” of STM without explicit coding for effect:
  • Fy, Fx, and Mz vs slip angle curves, complete with realistic nuances, such as Mz inversion
  • Inclination effects such as camber thrust
  • Complex and sometimes subtle changes in behavior due to load, heat, pressure, and speed.
  • Proper behavior at a standstill and very slow speeds, although due to limitations of consumer force feedback devices, oscillations may still occur. Many tire models break down at a standstill.
  • Flatspots
  • Hydroplaning
  • Changed in behavior due to surface differences, such as surface roughness, track rubbering in, wetness, and dirt.

Project CARS will be available for the PC, Sony Playstation 4 and Microsoft Xbox One, coming both as standard edition as well as being available as Limited Edition with additional goodies & content.

Project CARS will be sold both as boxed copies available at your favorite retailers as well as via digital distribution on Steam.  More info can be found on the Project CARS website.

The title can now be pre-ordered here.

  • David Hughes

    It certainly looks a good recipe – but the proof is in the pudding.

    • ibbybn

      Yes, delicious!

    • David Wright

      This sums it up for me. I’ve always believed pCARs was going to be a full on sim, but tyre models are difficult. Dave Kaemmer has struggled, rF2s tyre model still isn’t finished several years after release, and LFS new tyre model seems to have deteated its creator. However, I remain optimistic about pCARs.

      • Sim Antics

        So then you have faith in the Kunos tire? Since no mention of that one.
        I think the rF2 tire has a heating issue and the cold tire is like a hockey puck but is decent when it finally warms to optimal temp.
        Sector 3 has decided to keep the decent but simple one compound tire approach and the other 2 you mention I cannot comment on.
        SMS tire will force others to put more effort in this area in the future so it’s a win for everyone.

      • David Wright

        I didn’t comment on Kunos tyre model as I don’t know enough about it. I get the impression its a finished model and they don’t give the impression they’ve had to change it as much as the iRacing tyre but would welcome an article like the above to explain how it works.

      • Sim Antics

        Yes Kunos has a very good tire.

      • Bakkster

        I need to try again with the RC updates once they fix the other issues, but last time I tried it, I found it less predictable than iRacing’s latest NTM. Interested to see how well their flatspotting and such are.

      • Sim Antics

        Well if I can get a free test of the iRacing tire I will give an unbiased(except for my own tastes) opinion in a sense I will be fair as I am as much as possible with my comment on the ISI tire.

      • Bakkster

        What are you waiting for? This free 3 month deal might still be valid.
        http://www.iracing.com/nurburgring1000/

        Though at the end of the day, a lot of this is going to come down to what you personally like. I know some cars I think are easy to drive in iRacing give others big issues, and vice vers a.

      • Frederic Schornstein

        Have you ever driven on cold slick tires? They have considerably less grip outside their working window. Actually I think the cold tires in rF2 perform better than they should in reality.

      • Sim Antics

        But they heat quick. It almost seems like ISI tires need 20 laps before any change can be noticed once it does in fact get to an optimal range it’s not too bad. Oh to answer your question I have driven on bald tires on icy roads and had more grip than the hockey pucks

      • Frederic Schornstein

        I am not sure which cars you are driving in rF2. There are a lot of cars where you have only 1 Lap to do a proper qualy lap, because the tire performance drops immediately. Of course it is car dependend, but on some cars the tires don’t even last 20 Laps.
        The heat up very quick, so there is no problem with the tires being cold and cold tire are rubbish, that is why a lot of them are pre heatet, but can’t get your icy feel. I need 5 corners to get them up to temps and I can push right out of the pits in every car. I must do something wrong.

      • Sim Antics

        Well yes maybe some exaggeration at least I can stop long enough to see that you may be right to a point. However it does seem it can take a bit of time to get an optimal tire on a rubbered in track.

    • GamerMuscle

      If its cheese cake then its good

      • Sim Antics

        Don’t you mean Licorice Whips?

  • RangaTanga

    No Wii U version ?

    • HardRock

      It’s coming in 2015.

  • Noel Hibbard

    I’m curious if the tires are precompiled like rF2 does or if they use a simplified model capable of running in real time.

    • Sim Antics

      I might not be the best one to answer your question precompiled as compared to simplified. All I can say is extensive work has been done on tires with in some cases more than 20 variations of the same tire(WIP). pCARS will have a generous offering of tread compounds as a result of all this work that other developers have moved away from due to the overall demand tire technology requires.

      • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

        Yeah i can back him up on that Noel. The F1 tyre alone has gone through countless variations – all of which are tested by the various popular drivers.

      • Noel Hibbard

        I am a member, I just don’t follow it closely. You can look up my name on the forum (Noel Hibbard) and see how inactive I am. Hahaha. Everytime I update it and do some laps I am seriously let down and put it on the back burner again. Personally it is so far off I don’t bother following it on the forums.

    • ModernTimes2

      It’s a fully dynamic real time tyre simulation running at the 600Hz physics rate.

      Also note that the images in the article have nothing to do with the Seta Tyre Model – they’re age old and highlights limitations in Pacejka and brush models.

      • mfcfan

        Nice copy paste from wmd forums lol.

        As for physics rates more doesn’t mean better (Forza 2 444Hz)…..

        Oh and Live for speed tyre physics rate 2000Hz.

      • ModernTimes2

        What a pathetic trolling attempt :-))

      • mfcfan

        Nice well thought out response. You posted physics rate like it something to gauge how awesome pCars is…I just pointed to you how LFS runs 2000Hz physics tyre rate.

        Who is the troll now.

      • ModernTimes2

        I made a concise, factual, reasoned answer to Noel Hibbard. And yes, it’s awesome to run that kind of tyre model at 600Hz.

        What did you contribute? That’s right: polluting this place with pure trolling. And you’re even pathetically unskilled at that, with a severe lack of subtlety and cunning.

        *plonk*

      • Noel Hibbard

        I have access to WDM although I don’t frequent it. Could you post a link to detailed talk about the model? I’m not doubting you at all. I just find this sort of stuff interesting and would like to read up on it. I do have very serious doubts that it is all real time though. A single 1cm deflection test in rF2’s tire tool takes 8mins. Clearly it’s doing way too much math to run in realtime. What the tire tool does is store the result in a lookup table so the sim can query the table in real time.

      • BC72

        It is stretched out through “A.J.’s Thread” in the Physics & AI sub-forum. It started as Andy G posting all the notes from AJ regarding the tire model, then it evolved. Post #873 is where it appears that AJ starts talking about it. He makes several references about it being dynamic, but I didn’t read close enough to catch the whole picture.

      • Noel Hibbard

        Thanks! I have some reading to do. For anyone with WMD access, here is the link: http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?4868-A.J.-s-Thread-)&p=224735&viewfull=1#post224735

      • Andrew Weber

        It is real time. That is where a lot of the magic is. Optimizing the solver using assumptions that can be made for a tire carcass (vs, say, a general purpose cloth solver)

      • MontoyaVR

        Hey AJ, very cool of you to get involved here..I’m sure the readers appreciate that a lot 🙂

      • Andrew Weber

        I rarely come out of my hole and look around at forums, but with this little WMD post generating all this chat, I took a look around.

      • Noel Hibbard

        Thanks Andrew for the responses. It’s good to hear more about pCARS physics rather than only seeing screenshots. We all know it looks good. 🙂

      • Andrew Weber

        BTW, tires have hysteresis (and not just the hysteresis of the elastomer/rubber) , so you do lose something storing output at X,Y,Z and looking it up again later.

  • Sim Antics

    They have done a great job with the tire models and while I make the reservation to not make comparisons I love what SMS has done.

  • EZehnder

    All of this for a game. I don’t mean that as a slight. It’s amazing that sim games go through this much effort to make more and more realistic and complex tire models. This will continue forward and in 10 years I’m sure even more amazing technology will be behind our racing sims!

    • GamerMuscle

      Games drive so much technology its incredible For example the development of graphics cards specifically for processing the demands of real time graphics have allowed for real time display of MRI data and analysis of data that has massively reduced costs and improved efficiency in some medical fields.

  • Hristo

    Tire models are worthless without proper parameters, and the more complex the mode, the more difficult to achieve realism.

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

      Sentences are worthless without putting letters in right order. Yet we manage.
      So while true, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have the proper parameters or that they haven’t achieved realism. But realism is a subjective term.

      • Hristo

        They most definitely don’t have parameters for the faster aero cars and probably never will.

      • Patrik Marek

        I have to ask, so you have access to pcars or is this all speculation
        ?
        if you do, feel free to post your feedback on forums where it can get proper attention,

        if it’s just specualtion .. well, then just wait

      • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

        Well i do for one. And i can vouch for the fact so much has been written about the F1 tyre testing – you wouldn’t believe it. I’m fairly sure its been more thoroughly tested then most sims. And i don’t mean simple sentences either. We’re talking huge paragraphs of corrections after every iteration (and theres been over 40 but i’ve lost count after that). Being a completely new model expect some errors maybe. But the fact is..its theirs and a fairly definitive model. So every SMS sim (not game) will have it. They can apply it to any racing game. So keep your eye out for the next Richard Burns Rally beater – assuming pCARS is a success. And who knows….maybe theres a UK equivalent of Reiza in the making as they could lease it too. But that IS speculation.

      • Big Ron

        And that matters why? You are loving GPL while it obviously is outdated compared to todays physics engines but claiming that developers today don´t have access to data of faster aero cars? Even without “real” data todays physics-engineers can achieve better results that what GPL was capable. You know, they have tools to calculate things 😉

      • Noel Hibbard

        I think people are missing Hristo’s point. I don’t think he is saying he is in love with GPL. He is just using it as an example. I also don’t think he is singling out pCARS either. I think he is just speaking in general that complex models have their own problems.

      • Andrew Weber

        It denos’t mtater waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, it’s olny
        iprmoatnt taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae.The rset
        can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm.Tihs is
        bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the
        wrod as a wlohe.

        🙂

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        yaeh I’m aarwe of taht

    • todemanjack

      The inverse of your statment is. Simple tire models can never achieve the realism of complex ones. Even if they do have all the proper parameters.

      • Hristo

        That’s why too complex is never going to work out, especially for racing slick tires ran by most top categories. Nobody is going to provide data for those, not even the teams who take part in those series are given the full data, nor are they allowed to do rig tests themselves.

      • todemanjack

        Your assuming that the data already being given by tire manufacturers, isn’t too complex for available tire models. How do you know that tire information is being fully used? Seems to me you’re just trying your best to cast doubt on SMS’s abilities.

      • Sim Antics

        Hope you at least have a sense of humor 🙂

      • Gumshoe

        Define ‘too complex’ 🙂

      • gianluca p

        How do you know what data is available or not to the SMS developers? You don’t have a clue of what is going on behind the scenes in the development of the game, you don’t know what connections they can have in the automotive industry and motorsport world. What if at the end they’ll reveal that they are working side by side with one of the top F1 team and their software is running already in their simulator? Do you know how many professional drivers we have in the WMD? Are you sure nobody is helping giving telemtry and technical data about their cars and tires? You can’t tell, because you can’t know. So why don’t you just do us a favour and cut this nonsense?

      • Noel Hibbard

        I think it’s fairly common knowledge that devs have had a hard time gathering all the needed specs to build tires. That is why a lot of devs have just purchased their own tires and have done their own tests to get data on their own. The modding community doesn’t have access to real tires, data or testing methods. So a very complex model becomes somewhat of a problem for them. Hristo has a good point. It’s a catch 22. We all want the most complex model but it has it’s drawbacks too. In rF2 most 3rd party cars are using ISI tires because building one from scratch goes way over their heads. All the sims are going this complex route though.

    • Sloeri

      while you probably are right with what you are saying, i don’t understand however what you try to mean here ….. you want to criticize the makers for trying to achieve realism or a complex model which would (given proper parameters) give the ability to achieve realism ?

      • Hristo

        What I mean is that a better tire model is not always a good thing and it doesn’t guarantee more realism. Take a look at GPL – despite its limited tire model, it’s still going strongly after so many years and there are still very few titles which can compete with it when it comes to simulating F1 from the 60s, despite them having 3-4 times more parameters in their tire models. It’s not criticism that they’re aiming for realism, it’s just stating the fact that it’s not so practical to have such level of complexity. I bet even some F1 team simulators don’t have such complex tire models…

      • todemanjack

        “Take a look at GPL – despite its limited tire model, it’s still going strongly after so many years and there are still very few titles which can compete with it when it comes to simulating F1 from the 60s” Absolute poppycock. Unless all you have is a single core, 1 ghz CPU.

      • Hristo

        It’s true, whether you like it or not.

      • Patrik Marek

        based on your real life experience of driving 60′ formula car?

      • todemanjack

        Your unsubstantiated assertion carries zero argumentative weight. It wouldn’t bother me one bit if GPL’s physics were still up to date. They are not. They were nothing more than very simple, but well balanced, tire physics. That pale in comparison to even most Simcades games, of the last 5 years.

      • Sloeri

        point taken. thanks.
        i thought you had a rant at the makers. which i would feel as unfair 😉

      • Patrik Marek

        ***simplify a lot****
        if you have tire model that’s described by 10 parameters vs tire model that’s described by 500 parameters, it’s quite obvious that it will be faster to tweak the first one to get it really good, wouldn’t you agree?

        also the fact that you like GPL, it doesn’t mean that the new ones, which COULD be more realistic, are worse

        people tend to like something and they consider it to be realistic, while realistic could be something completely different,

        this was very clearly demonstrated when Shelby Cobra was released, .. it was quite accurate and realistic, but people were expecting it to be different (comparing to older games) hence they complained that it’s not realistic at all, and it’s bad …

      • Sim Antics

        So you would rather it not be done and continue gaming on GPL for the rest of your sim racing life? The new millennium has come and gone I hope you get unstuck.

      • Hristo

        Of course not, but what’s the point in going so complex if you can’t utilize it properly? As someone else said, the tire model is not so important, what’s important is the end-result.

      • Sim Antics

        So I can agree that a great deal of effort is put into Tyre models from the different developers out there.
        The goal in Sim Racing or any other kind of virtual simulation is the effort to try to make it as close to real life as possible.
        The teams that have the resources do in fact put tremendous amount of man hours in this area while others find a more simplified solution in effort to keep development cost in check.
        I think however people won’t see the point your trying to make when you claim the efforts toward realism are a waste of time.
        Best thing is since it is really doing no harm to you is to accept the fact developers have created the need to pursue these endeavors to the extent they have and just enjoy any improvement it may create to your sim racing experience overall. 🙂

      • Hristo

        Realism is not achieved through a model alone (tire, engine, etc.), but by inserting the correct parameters into that model, otherwise it’s just unused potential. The more complex the model, the more precise data you need, and what I’m saying is such data is not available for the majority of high performance, top series, racing slick and wet tires. It’s a well guarded secret by the tire companies, and teams only get limited data to work with. Why else do you think F1 teams are struggling with tires, if they had all the data available, there would be guessing what’s going on. So if professional teams don’t have access, what makes you think a game developer will?

      • Gumshoe

        How could GPL possibly even come close to realism from your explanations given it’s ‘parameter set’ would be far reduced from what is currently understood and available? Can you show evidence of how any parameter input to GPL is reflected accurately to real life through the physics model?

      • LogiForce

        You do realise we have Doug Arnou as one of our Physics developers, I hope? As he and Kaemmer were responsible for that exact tyre model in Grand Prix Legends.

      • Sim Antics

        Arnao

      • LogiForce

        Shame on me. I spelled it wrong from memory. Corrected.
        Thank you good sir! 😀

        “Doug Arnao – Car Physics and AI”

      • Sim Antics

        Who worked on past ISI titles as well including rFactor

    • GamerMuscle

      I’m sure you could argue both ways

      Ultimately the end result is all that matters and in both cases I could see how a “simple” or “complex” model could achieve good results.

      There are going to be so many variables as to what produces the best end result and then the desired end result seems to be an area of argument and subjectivity.

      On top of that subjectivity no commercial enterprise would ever flat out admit that there end result is pore or where there model fails.

      So in the end my view of it all is to just play things that seem to provide entertainment value for your own goals.

      On the pure simulation side you would look for a simulator that matches the specif tasks and tools that you require for a given task or set of tasks.

      • Hristo

        Sure, what matters is the end result, so although interesting to read about, I’m not really impressed when they show off how complex their tire model is. It doesn’t matter much to the end-user experience if they don’t have the correct parameters to feed it, and in some cases it could even be detrimental.

      • GamerMuscle

        They probably do have the correct parameters for a lot of there content.

        Its obviously good marketing to talk about the technology it allows the consumer to see how much work goes into the product and that makes the product have more perceived value.

        As for end end result will just have to play it I’m sure some will like it others not and people will always argue over what is more real or not 🙂

      • todemanjack

        Yep, there is nothing wrong with Mario Kart’s physics, as long as we have the correct parameters.

      • Big Ron

        This is a professional studio with lots of connections to real motorsport teams, drivers and car manufacturers. How could you expect that they don´t have correct parameters for most of their content? For some things they don´t have parameters. But these are engineers, not apes. They know what they are doing like most other sim developers.

        And feeding with parameters is just one side of the medal. No physics-engine for home customers works without adoptions and real paramters can just work for things which can be calculated. In no sim you have on your PC.

      • Gumshoe

        Do you realise that makes no sense? To the end-user it makes no difference what the parameters are as long as it feels and looks right.

        NONE, I repeat NONE of the sims out there have a ‘complete’ set of data to recreate real life accurately. They all just use the most complete set they can and fill the gaps.

      • LogiForce

        I found my popcorn comment. I knew someone would say this. You guys are just too predictable.

        *grabs another handful and continues down the comment list*

    • Noel Hibbard

      That is why everyone claims cars aren’t being developed as fast in rF2. Complex models are the best but yeah it takes a lot more effort to get the parameters right.

      • LogiForce

        The thing is that while it is true that there are many different tyres used in daily driving and racing over the many years of automobile use, a lot of cars also use the same tyres. For example the Clio Cup all use the same Dunlop tyres, the DTM uses the same Hankook, and so on.
        What this means is that even though you have to make many different tyres at first with a new tyre model, you will end up being able to use the same tyres for more than one car eventually (if all is well). So it is just the startup that’s slow and hard as the people who work on the tyre model Physics not only need to make many new tyre types but also they need to learn what all the new parameters do and how to balance them out.
        With that last bit especially the WMD feedback has been highly valuable for the devs to quick sort out and direct everything in the right direction, certainly with a complex model as this.

    • Sim Antics

      Comments are worthless without proper knowledge of the subject at hand, and the more complex the nonsense the more difficult it is to earn respect.

    • Gumshoe

      And what should the set of parameters be to declare simulating them ‘real?’ Is the tire model worthy with 10 parameters, or should it have 6000? What if the tyre behaves ‘realistically’ – i.e. matches graphs/data – with 150 parameters, but when you attain more information and expand to 200 it’s no longer correct? What then?

      Sim racers are hilarious – physics don’t matter if FFB sucks, FFB doesn’t matter if data is wrong, data doesn’t matter if behaviour is wrong.

      It’s easy to see how there’s an argument for making any sim ‘wrong’ there 😉

  • mfcfan

    I remember while back a interview Kramer did on iRacing’s new tire model how complex it was and the work that went in to it. That was 3-4 years ago and today iRacing tire model is still not finished and missing simple features that will probably take 4-5 years to complete….So all I see reading this is marketing talk of using complex words.
    To model all those variables you would need supercomputer to calculate all those variables let alone factor in other parts of the game suspension, chassis etc.

    Edit: here is the interview from 4 years ago! (starts at 18 minutes)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS44_Xl4_xI

    • todemanjack

      Todays CPU’s are super compared to 4 years ago.

      • LogiForce

        The tyre model runs fine on my 4 year old Intel i7 2600k though. 😉

      • todemanjack

        However, the tyre models made 4 years ago (iRacing), were made to work well on a CPU 4 years older than your i7. It’s a progression thing.

      • Noel Hibbard

        Yes machines today are much faster than 4 years ago, but they are still too slow to calculate everything listed above in realtime. Plus, there are people who have 4 year old computers who are running all current sims just fine.

    • Ian Bell

      You’re plain wrong. There’s no marketing talk here at all. It’s all as stated.

      • mfcfan

        Nice to see ya back on VirtualR. I remember those early days…you challenging/attacking anyone, if they dared to say anything negative about your pCars here and nogrip forums then suddenly deleted everything……

      • punkfest2000

        mfcfan: “So all I see reading this is marketing talk of using complex words.”

        That’s all you see?? The physics programmer can’t show the details of his work without someone labeling it as marketing? You might as well label all released information as advertising then, and that goes for all the competitors.

        Andrew Weber toiling away for years on this engine and you have the indecency to dismiss it?

      • Ian Bell

        Yes, I’m afraid. Very afraid. 🙂

      • ModernTimes2

        Don’t be daft. You’re the one doing the challenging and attacking here if anyone dare say something positive. I honestly wouldn’t mind if you and your ilk were deleted :-))

      • mfcfan

        You seem to be exclusive pCars poster so relax a bit.

      • ModernTimes2

        I’m quite relaxed, thank you. I’ll let you in on a secret technique that will make life better for yourself and others and let you relax too: spend your time on things you enjoy and have a genuine interest in – don’t spend your time seeking out what you dislike and have not genuine interest in, only to mindlessly bash it. It’s worth a try 🙂

    • ModernTimes2

      “….So all I see reading this is marketing talk of using complex words.”

      What Mr. Bell said!

      And – all sim studios market their tyre models. Why shouldn’t SMS be allowed to do so? They’re actually saying something concise and interesting about it, which is refreshing.

    • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

      Sorry…theres only two physics i can see in that interview.

      • Schigara

        There was an interview?

    • RobertH

      Still miss the lovely Jessica.. 🙂

    • Hugo Stiglitz

      Iracings tire model is now one of the best though. NTM 5 is one of the best in the business.

      Before NTM 5 I’d totally agree with you but iracing made a huge leap forward with NTM 5. Now there’s actual tire feel instead of ice racing

    • Alan Dallas

      News flash, all those features are currently in pCARS. No super computer required.
      You lose, go cry in a corner or something.

      • Noel Hibbard

        News flash, 99% of these things have been in rf2’s model for 2 years now but there is no way in hell pCARS is doing this in real time. They must be doing the heavy work ahead of time similar to rf2. Does anyone know how large a tire file is in pCARS. I just dug around a little but couldn’t find a tire. I assume it’s in the bff files. An rf1 tire (tbc) was all realtime and the files were pure text and under 1k. In rF2 you specify all the characteristics of the tire like the 3D shape, tread type and layers, depth and a bunch of other stuff. Then you let the TTool run tests which produces a 500kb lookup table with the results. It takes 4 hours or so to build this table. Either pCARS is doing the same thing or it is extremely simplified. Go to YouTube and search for TTool RFactor2 and you’ll find a video of isi’s tire tool. Btw, TTool is a public tool. This is what all modders use to develop tires in rF2.

      • BC72

        The tire model is entirely new… As such, you have zero idea on how intensive it is or how much memory/storage it requires. Why make such claims when you admittedly know nothing about it?

        I don’t know all of the details, but I am not assuming anything. What I have seen is feedback from Nic and Ben being translated into specific tire tweaks. When they comment on too much long or lat grip, for example, the team acknowledges that they know what is to be tweaked to address the issue. They then do so. That shows that they understand the model and that it is working to their expectation. These variables are exactly what is being explained in the article.

        Works for me, anyway…

      • Noel Hibbard

        Well it isn’t entirely new. As I understand it was introduced in the 300’s. I just have my doubts it is fully realtime but reading in the thread you pointed to it looks like they are hesitant to give all the details on how they are crunching so much math in realtime. In the end, if it feels right then that is all that really counts. I’ve tested post Seta and I still wasn’t impressed. But that is just my opinion.

      • BC72

        What I meant by new is that nobody else is using it, so comparing it to the other models limitations isn’t valid. In the end, maybe not all is computed in real time (I didn’t find a definitive comment from SMS), but that is what is behind closed doors…

      • Noel Hibbard

        The answer is in this quote from Andrew: “My guess is still that rF2 combines their pre-calculated carcass with a dynamic tread. That is a fallback position for us too, depending on CPU use. If we go that route, we very likely would pre calculate much higher resolution carcasses too…even if the behavior is not that much different than low res, the cool and wow factor of that much res, so long as the price is offline, is an upside.”

        So basically what he is saying is they don’t see any real advantage to running a high resolution carcass and by running a low res carcass they can afford (CPU time) to run it real time. But if they decide later that it is worth it to run higher res then they would go the lookup table route that ISI is using.

      • Andrew Weber

        It is real time.

      • Noel Hibbard

        Yes, I read your explanation on the WMD forum. Low resolution carcass reduces the CPU load.

      • ModernTimes2

        Although A.W. has confirmed that the model is indeed real time, I’ll add this: the two approaches, or a hybrid thereof to this problem has number of different properties:

        The rF2 method (table lookup) means that you must populate an N dimensional data space ahead of time. A lot of data points, covering all possible states of the tyres must be computed, and that takes time. With the pCARS real time approach, only a single (N dimensional) data point has to be computed per physics iteration.

        If the pCARS tyre model was used to generate the full data space ahead of time (a possibility), it too would use a lot of time and generate huge files of tabulated data.

        Some of the advantages of using a real time method over a table based method are that it’s much more flexible (altering just a few coefficients can change more degrees of the behaviour), it can give higher precision (not limited to the (interpolated) values from pre calculated tables), it can give more possibilities of secondary (emergent) effects.

        BTW, this posting is not an argument for or against rF2 or pCARS tyre models, just an explanation what the differences may entail.

      • Noel Hibbard

        Good points… Also to clarify I am not trying to say one is better than the other either. I just find these aspects of sims interesting. You are right that it takes a long time to do a full test run to build a full lookuptable, but even doing a one off calculation takes several minutes. So you can see why a full test run takes soooooo long. So long that it just isn’t possible to run ISI’s model in real time. I do see a big advantage to the lower complexity carcass which can run in real time from a development point of view. Trial and error without the compile time would be REALLY helpful.

      • Andrew Weber

        It is also possible that rF2 simply did not invest in a faster offline approach yet, as that is not critical to playing the game itself. For example, if they are doing it with an explicit integration solver of what is a numerical stiff problem, they may need to use much smaller timesteps than they may need later if they change their method. For sure we cannot run the resolution of rF2’s carcass pictures in real time either, but I’ve run close to that resolution in seconds, not minutes. But to do so, every force model needs its Jacobian, which can be tricky to get right.

      • Noel Hibbard

        Yeah I could see them not bothering to fully optimize the calculations knowing that even with optimizations it would not meet the requirements of real time. I’m sure there are higher priorities on their plate right now.

      • Andrew Weber

        Another advantage is you can have hysteresis.

      • ModernTimes2

        From your postings here:

        “…there is no way in hell pCARS is doing this in real time.”

        “No need to claim your doing it real time other than it sounds cooler. Although this article doesn’t actually claim it’s realtime… just fans are claiming that.”

        “I do have very serious doubts that it is all real time though.”

        I wish you would refrain from using this kind of polemics, essentially implying that SMS devs and WMD members are lying.

      • Noel Hibbard

        Not lying… just not supplying much detail. I was just looking for details which I have after digging on the WMD forum. Andrew also responded clarifying that it was real time but wasn’t willing to shed anymore light on it. Although he did on the WDM forum.

      • ModernTimes2

        OK. It’s very cool to se Andrew on here. Hopefully there has been a bit more general detail to satisfy the curiosity now. Of course there will be limits – neither ISI nor SMS will give us all details of their implementations. I trust that the physics experts of both these parties are highly competent and are giving us the most advanced and lifelike tyre models that can be expected with the state of the art, although naturally with different approaches and somewhat different results.

  • triskele10

    They have enough time now after the release delay

  • Markus Ott

    Funny arguments. Because other competitors needed years for their tire model and still aren’t finished no one can do it faster. Strong logic. iRacing is so megaslow with their development, no matter what, I wouldn’t take their tire model as an example how long it takes to develop one. For sure pCARS’ model won’t be perfect as well at release, but it also won’t take them years to get where they want to be. Instead of being happy a commercial sim racing game gets pushed by what it can deliver physics wise people keep on arguing if it is just marketing. If someone leads the way others will have to deliver even more with what they bring in the future. What SMS does serves us all, no matter what sim we prefer. Time to be less pathetic.

    • Bakkster

      Yeah, iRacing is megaslow. Not like pCARS and Assetto Corsa, which both launched in 2012 (the year of the sim) as announced.

      Oh wait, that’s right, pCARS was delayed from 2012 until March 2013
      http://www.justpushstart.com/2012/03/project-cars-release-date-pushed-back-to-march-2013/

      Never mind, they meant Thanksgiving 2013. See, not slow AT ALL, unlike iRacing.
      https://twitter.com/slightlymadteam/status/264042774809169920

      • mfcfan

        There is rumor going around that it won’t be even released this year. Something like Q1/Q2 2015.

      • gianluca p

        really? just inside your head or elsewhere?

      • triskele10

        You’re right, no rumours

      • Sim Antics

        Well if that’s what you want to call it in the privacy of your own home I can live with that. As long as you have fun playing the game.

      • Big Ron

        Well, there is a lot other stuff in the game than physics which must be taken care of. So, with such a extensive game I expected to see delays.

      • Hugo Stiglitz

        HAHAHAHA you owned him so bad LOL

      • Marco Hooghuis

        Oh that’s right, because iRacing’s tire model is completely finished and without any flaws in the basic operation whatsoever. After about a million years of development.

      • Bakkster

        The point is that ALL sim racing development is slow. pCARS, AC, and iRacing 2.0 were all supposed to be released in 2012, all of them just getting around to it now. To single one of them out as particularly slow wouldn’t be reasonable.

  • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

    The difference was that Kramer was probably happy with the cars and their physics served him (and the sim) well. SMS isn’t in that position and if your going to go balls out (which you have to do against all the racers, regardless of format) hen theres no other way. To all these who see this as marketing BS – know this. If SMS is wrong there is plenty people following and many more watching. I like to think they are clued up enough to know theres no room for shoddy physics and half baked simulation. This isn’t EA talking and this marketing “Bravado” perception will need backing up. And they know that.

    • Hurdy Hurdy

      Kramer?

      Didn’t know the cast of Seinfeld were working on a sim.

      • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

        Sorry Kaemmer. I’d forgot his name and mistook mfcfan’s interview post.

  • Patrik Marek

    I thought this was simcade ? why so complicated?

    • wajdi nujeidat

      It is!

      • ModernTimes2

        Complicated, you mean?

      • wajdi nujeidat

        No,I mean Simcade.

      • Sim Antics

        Yes your comment very much was

      • Gumshoe

        Please provide an accurate description of ‘simcade’ that isn’t subjective and incorporates the complex model detailed above.

      • Sim Antics

        That would be “Complicaded” in his world!

      • punkfest2000

        Don`t bite guys. Move along.

      • tromoly

        Both guys are trolls, don’t feed them.

      • Roy Rki

        Marek is being sarcastic…

      • tromoly

        I realized that after the fact, once I saw a few of Marek’s other comments. Wajdi, on the other hand, 100% troll…..

      • wajdi nujeidat

        Yes, having an opinion is trolling for you. So, let’s say, Pcars is the most hard core sim…..sssss I’m not a troll anymore!

      • tromoly

        No, you’re trolling because you don’t know what this article is about.

        Pick up a copy of Race Car Vehicle Dynamics and read the sections on tires, and then tell me if ANYTHING in this article is not found in those chapters. This tire model, from what I’ve seen in the article, uses the same variables needed for real-world vehicle simulation, to say that the tire model isn’t “real-world” is saying that real vehicle engineers aren’t using “real-world” models to design real vehicles.

        Also, by definition a simulation is a mathematical representation of a real-world system, by that definition even “arcade” racers are simulations. Simulations are classified by the complexity of the equations and the amount and what assumptions are assumed in the model, your “arcade” sim has many simplifications due to broad assumptions, while more complex sims are more complex with much more narrow assumptions.

        This is why I have a problem with you constantly posting your “simcade” crap. How about you sit down and learn the math behind vehicle dynamics before criticizing the work of others.

      • Clutch Norris

        So i bet all NFS are simulations right? And battlefield games are RPG games… Lolol.

      • tromoly

        The word “Simulation” means different things in the Gaming world and the Engineering world. Technically, the physics in NFS are a simulation, as it’s a calculation-based representation of reality, however it’s a fairly innacurate simulation of the real world due to assumptions and simplifications.

        The games that people here would call “Simulations” are basically Driver-In-The-Loop Real-Time Vehicle Dynamics Simulations, with a great amount of detail and complexity in the governing equations to be as close to reality as possible within computational limits.

        You can sum it up by using the tire model in the article as an example. In the NFS games, for their dynamic simulation they may just say the tire has a coefficient of friction of 1.2, with zero weight transfer, a certain static weight, and be done with their tires. This works in the sense that it’ll give out a number for the amount of grip in a corner, and it be an answer at one moment in reality, but it’s not necessarily the right answer all the time. Now looking at the pCars tire model, they’re using all the different components of the tire needed to solve equations in the Pajecka tire model, which when combined with weight transfer and a multitude of other Vehicle Dynamics equations, produce a much more accurate number for the grip at a given instant for the vehicle.

        TL;DR, all physics models are simulations, it’s the level of detail that brings some closer to reality than others.

      • Clutch Norris

        Yea thank you i’ve been aware of this for at least 30 years now(the first game i coded was on MO5). Every video game is a simulation according to the original definition, but in video games it has another definition which you can’t twist to the wider one so it fits your argumentation because it’s just crap.

      • Sim Antics

        No having an opinion is not trolling. Unfair labeling is.

      • Rlee

        You didn’t give an opinion, you’re just retarded.

      • melanieuk1

        Hows rFactor2 getting on with it’s rehashed dated content, I’ve heard Jacksonville from rfactor1 will be making an appearance in rfactor 2, I mean rFactor 1.5 has modders have labelled it.

      • Noel Hibbard

        OMG OMG!!! Daytona that was in rF1 will also be in rF2?!?! That is insane… why would anyone want to race at Daytona? it’s so 1959.

      • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

        Would you like me to go over the tracks that pCARs has that have also been used in other games?
        Are you sure?
        Ok. Didn’t think so.

      • kahel grahf

        Oh… Come on don’t stay in the past… it’s at least 1.6 by now…

  • pez2k

    I do find it somewhat amusing that SMS get slated for focusing on graphics over physics because they only post screenshot galleries, then when Andrew Weber takes time out of his day to write up a big explanation of the complexities of their tyre model, people complain that the model doesn’t matter, only the parameters put into it. Simracing fans must be one of the hardest groups to please!

    • Roy Rki

      Fans are already much more than pleased, but fundamentalists will always find some detail about Pcars to complain about, while I can find 10 things wrong or missing in their sim of choice.

      Example: when I saw AC “career” mode today, I just laughed for a while, because Andy Tudor mentioned many times how dumb is to grind with slow cars to unlock better ones.

      • Lemming77

        100% agreed. This was always SMS’ ethos behind the NFS Shift games too. Hell, Shift 1 starts with choices like a Nissan 350z, Mazda RX-8 and Honda S2000.

      • Sim Antics

        If it makes the hard core simmers feel better to think they have to have the need to dissect every little detail that goes into developing a racing sim and then run comparisons across the board I say let them have at it. I will be on the track.

      • Hugo Stiglitz

        Dumb? Yea because having a rewarding career mode is dumb LOL

        It’s one thing if you want all the cars unlocked for single events, but a career should have a progression to it. It should have rewards, not just mindless racing.

        He complains about grinding to get better cars, but is perfectly fine with a career mode where you grind to get nothing? that makes a lot of sense

      • BC72

        I think you misunderstand the meaning of ‘grinding’… If you are doing race after race, just to get where you want to be, that is grinding. If you can choose to do one of many disciplines and choose to move laterally, or even backwards…that is a sandbox approach. You are rewarded with trophies and better contracts…sounds a lot like real life. 😛

      • Roy Rki

        I’m fed up with this Skinner box gameplay since GT5 – Press a lever and you’ll get cheese. Dumb.

  • disqus_YearYdZHQK

    Amazing stuff…. Its all about trying to get as close as the real thing as posiible. Its never gonna be perfect as its an impossible task but trying to achieve it is what its all about.

  • Humberto Roca

    I like turtles…

    • Sim Antics

      “Ninja”

  • Hurdy Hurdy

    When I saw the pic, I thought it was the big wheel at Suzuka.

    • http://www.facebook.com/steve.shears.37 Steve Shears

      Thats also in the game. So…win win. 🙂

  • Gumshoe

    Where’s that Toy Story meme pic ‘Armchair experts, armchair experts everywhere’ when you need it. Or should it be ‘idiots, idiots everywhere…’?

  • Jeff Lasecki

    Kind of reads like a wishlist rather than technical paper Which shows awareness but…….

    • HardRock

      Except it’s not a wishlist, it’s list of already implemented and working features. I think the fact that you thought that the description of the tire model is so advanced that it could only be a wishlist should be taken as a compliment by the devs. 🙂

  • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

    The amazing amount of info that goes into that tyre model is both very interesting and just goes to show the quality of sims today compared to, say, even 5 years ago.
    The info in that article is some nicely detailed stuff.

    So when I read some of the comments here it just makes the heart sink.
    People just wanna hate on it no matter what. Maybe it’s just narrow mindedness.

    That article is a simmers wet dream. It’s details like that from a tyre model that should make us drool. But clearly not everyone wants to be impressed as they have other things on their agenda.

    • JesseFahrenkrog

      Couldn’t have said it better myself.

    • Sim Antics

      No worries @WMD pCARS we have tested so many tires we will be going into the used Tire Business with special offerings to other developers that should just about finance pCARS 2

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Sounds like a good side business 🙂 Old tyre models for sale 🙂

    • Hugo Stiglitz

      Not trying to hate. I bought it on PC, and I will buy it on Ps4 but it definitely isn’t the best feeling sim, that’s all.

      • Sim Antics

        To you and your mindset as to what you want out of your own personal experience with the title. That’s fair enough 🙂

    • Mario Strada

      I am actually really impressed by some of the cars in pCARS. At this point my only remaining complaint is that I am unable to feel the vibration when I have a wheel over the ribbed surface of a curb. It’s pretty weird. But for the rest, I am really impressed.

      Also, I deleted and reinstalled pCARS from scratch the other day. Big difference in terms of graphics, FFB and frame rates. If you think about it, I had a patched installation for over a year, there was bound to be a bit of junk here and there. Now I am back to a smooth and very drivable experience.

      • HardRock

        The FFB rumble depends on the kerb. Some of them are completely smooth so you won’t get any FFB effect from them. Unlike in other sims I’ve played all FFB effects are physics based in pCARS, so you won’t always get a kerb vibration when you drive over them. A canned rumble effect could be enabled until a few weeks ago and hopefully it will be in the full game as well for the people who will miss it.

        That said, the underlying FFB system went through huge changes about a month ago and not all cars are set up correctly for the new system and all wheels yet, which could also explain quite a lot of FFB weirdness people experience at the moment.

  • Hugo Stiglitz

    Then why does it still feel like you’re floating on the road?

    • Markus Ott

      Dunno, are you doing drugs?

    • LogiForce

      Because you’re in driving heaven, of course! Duh!

      Seriously though, when driving the Formula Gulf on the Nordschleife with the CSWv2 my wheel was almost ripped out of my hands it is that bumpy. So if I hit a bump, I at least know that I am not being a Jesus Christ Superstar. 😉

      No clue why you feel that it feels like floating though. You must have set something up wrongly to get that feeling.

      • EZehnder

        There are different files/values for different wheels. It’s absolutely possible that a car feels amazing with your wheel and horrible with a G27 (and vice versa).

        I noticed a thread recently that shows they are focused very much on taking all the work from the community in the FFB threads and getting them combined. You should expect to see overall better FFB within the next few weeks as this is honed.

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

      Which car are you referring to ? I’ve just tried a good few of them and I don’t get that feeling.

    • Gui Cramer

      Force feedback can destroy everything else done right by the game, it could be you’re having issues with that. Also this tire model isn’t finished either.

      • Schigara

        Exactly. The FFB is really wonky at the moment and has always been on the backburner until just recently.

  • Can’tKeepASecret

    pCARS has been delayed to March 17th 2015. You’ll find out tomorrow. Sorry.

  • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

    Hmmm…

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

      Here we go again. The big VR conspiracy theory and it’s band of merry men.

      What difference does it make what’s at the top ? It’s like complaining which book is first on a shelf in a library. People can still access every article at their free will, nothing is being forced.
      The pCARS article was posted along with the F1-2014 article and they both came 15 hours after the AC release article.
      If you have it on an RSS feed you can access any article at will. My RSS feed has the last 20 articles and 4 of those are pCARS and 8 are AC.
      I mean as if VR even needs to justify this nonsense.
      What, you think that putting pCARS at the top is going to subconsciously make people buy it who would otherwise not have done ?
      Or that it give it an unfair advantage ? (Read the comments here before you answer that).
      I mean what is the issue here ?
      Are the other sims not getting a fair exposure ?

      And what is the connection between the placement of pCARS news and the legitimacy of news from all the other sims ?
      If it is Montoya’s choice to do this, then, apart from the fact that it is his choice because it is his site, it does not affect the sites legitimacy at bringing unbiased news in the slightest.
      If he was slagging off all the others then you might have an argument.

      By the way you don’t get to come here and slag off the site and tell people to look elsewhere for unbiased news.
      If you want to go elsewhere then you should maybe go, and take your bias of VirtualR and your petty, illogical complaints with you.

      Any more BS like this from you, or anyone, and I will act on it without warning. I won’t be tolerating any more of this stupid nit-picking.

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        F1 Racer… Just because I can…

        Yes I deleted it… Because you know what the thing was?

        It was simply a case of that as I was typing it, and I hit post I kind of realized ‘you know what…. What difference does it make’ – (my typing what I did)….

        You exercising your god like powers and re quoting what I had already deleted and what i had already self moderated MERE SECONDS after posting it is proof that this portal has indeed gone south.

        Did you think that perhaps my IMMEDIATE editing/self moderating of the post I made was done for a reason? > The reason I edited it was because being a mature adult I realized immediately what I had typed would serve no good and thus I removed it.

        But thank you for showing us your class (or lack there of) and your amazing use of your “god mode” powers to reveal what I had typed, when ultimately it had been removed within… what 2 maybe 3 seconds of it actually hitting the blog.

        Thank you. Well done. !

        I edited this one to… i added a ! at the end. Feel free to repost it.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        If you were the mature adult you claim to be then why write it in the first place only to change your mind after the fact ?
        Cold feet perhaps ? Take responsibility for it.

        The only reason I re-quoted your post was because I had bothered to write a lengthy reply and as you are not the first one to drone on about this, I felt it needed sorting out here and now.

        My re-quoting your post has nothing to do with ‘this portal going south’. That was my decision and not a reflection on all the other members who comment here. You really like to ramp up the drama.

        However, as you see me as a god, if you want your post removing I will do so.
        But I suggest you take a bit more care in what you write before you post something like that.

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        And I suggest for you Mr F1Racer, that if someone post’s something but then politley and extremely quickly takes the option IMMEDIATLY to self moderate it (which is our right to do so) that you consider not feeling the need to play god and pluck it back from the cyber space recycle bin and repost it…

        What was your point – To humiliate me… Please.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        You can suggest whatever you want. There was no evidence of any politeness on your part however. None that could be seen by me.

        Let me counter-suggest that if you are going to take the time to write an inflammatory post and then hit the Post button that you have the guts to stand by it for more than a couple of seconds.

        I understand that you may have changed your mind when you posted it. That’s fair enough. But, as I said, I had already replied to it and it was not the first time this subject has been brought up. So I re-quoted it to get this nonsense clarified.

        I had no intention of humiliating you. I didn’t write your post, you did. My point was simply that neither you or anyone else gets to spout that kind of nonsense.
        Was I supposed to delete my reply because you changed your mind ? Or keep it there and make it look like I was replying to an empty post ?

        But I suspect there was more to your reason to remove it than “what’s the point”.

        We can remove the whole thread if you want.
        Just say the word.
        But maybe stand by your convictions or take more care on what you post in future.

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

      No no, you don’t get to delete that ! Stand by what you said !

      Here is your post….. (and my reply underneath)

      “Anyone else note the way when another competing title to pCARS
      release’s news it’s quickly swept aside or ‘bumped off” top spot on the
      news list with a hastily released pCARS tid bit?

      VirtualR your association with SMS and pCARS has completely rendered your legitimacy as a unbiased delivery portal for the news of the sim racing world at large – if anyone is seeking a truly unbiased independent view on the happenings in the sim world you would probably do well too look
      elsewhere…”

  • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

    Hmmmm…

  • Empire

    As usual F1racer is embarrassing this site with his completely unprofessional and inappropriate behaviour as a moderator. I have never ever before seen a moderator get involved in so many childish arguments with members , and now he has gone even further by abusing his powers by re posting what a member deleted. An absolute disgrace. I will be reporting this to the site owner. I am sure my own post will be deleted because F1racer does not like it. A credible site must have credible mods.

    • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

      Hear here!

      Thank you Empire.

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

      Empire,
      As a moderator it is more likely than not that I will have to engage with trolls, flame-baiters etc as part of that role, would you agree ?
      Generally you’ll find those type of people don’t want or can’t be reasoned with so, yes, the conversation ends up getting drawn out or even childish as you say.
      But I don’t think you can say that I am childish per se. You might likely find that my posts are calmer, less abusive and less childish if I am engaging with a troll. Make no mistake, I will engage these people. Dialog first and if they persist in breaking site rules then, yes, they are risking a temporary ban.
      I am not a robot, I am human and sometimes I am driven by emotion which doesn’t always mean you make the right decisions or say the right things.
      We are all susceptible to that.
      As with what happened with Phil, well, that is something I will be addressing with him.
      I’m sorry you don’t see me as credible but I have a feeling if someone on here was trolling you for no apparent reason and I stepped in and stopped him, you might see things differently. I will defend you on here against that as much as I would for anyone.

      I do agree that, on my part, some of what happened with Phil was unprofessional and inappropriate. You are right and I will freely admit that. I can do that for two reasons. Because I am at least credible enough to admit my own mistakes and also because my own standards to which I hold myself should be better than that.
      However, I had my reasons at the time and I will be taking those up with Phil.

      You can keep your post btw 🙂

      • Empire

        Ok thanks. Like you said might have to tone it down a bit. Good you can take it onboard.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Yeah I got no worries there. If I see I am wrong I am big enough to say so and account for it. It would be nice to see that same value from others though. Well, I hope that gets me at least a little credibility in your eyes. 🙂

  • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

    Because my post was resurected from being deleted, and then later re-removed by someone here I felt it relevant to have a post placed here in lieu of it’s removal.

    Dear VR – A lesson for on listening:

    Your
    audience is like a mirror for you.

    Don’t just look at it but listen to it as
    well.

    They tell you all you need to know on what they want, what they think of
    what you’re doing, and what they need from you as a speaker/deliverer – in VR’s
    case – Sim Racing News.

    STOP, LOOK and LISTEN and serve YOUR audience – for without them you will become irrelevant and or perhaps even eventually non existent.

    Why should VR Listen?

    F1Racer; For the most part; People like people who listen to us and guess what? We buy from people we
    like. We also respect people who listen and respond thoughtfully to us (not
    threateningly like you did with the ‘next person to speak about this bs is banned” or words to that effect…), as if they actually heard what we had to
    say.

    Finally, listen to learn. LISTEN TO LEARN.
    Listening to
    others not only helps you learn about your audience and their needs and
    wants, it also helps you learn more about you and the business you want
    to build.

    When you listen, you quiet your mind and that’s when REAL learning happens.

    To the VR Disqus comments moderator;

    Many, many people have made comments similar to mine which I self moderated… you said that yourself.

    Question
    is, Are you listening to what’s being said by your audience or will you
    continue to flame and fire back with fire and brimstone as you did to
    me.

    You see … Another lesson for you, An audience is a
    fickle thing – Keeping relevant is the challenge and I think the
    comments (including my self edited one) are a cry to effect change –
    Because say what you will,,, Fact is, many people who come here have
    been doing so since WAY before the arrival of pCARS on the sim racing
    scene.

    As a result they have witnessed over time it’s subsequent
    influence on the approach, And I suspect those amongst that group have
    seen the change in the dynamic – cater towards the topic I self edited.

    F1racer
    – No real requirement is needed for you to reply any further. I’m sure
    the audience can or already is deciding if your listening or not.

    Over and out.

    • MontoyaVR

      Phil, the problem is that you consider yourself to be some sort of silent majority when, in fact, you are a minority.

      You’re saying I should listen to my audience more. If I would do that, I’d be posting even more pCARS news, way more. You know why? Because pCARS is the most popular topic on here, the stories on it generate the most interest by far.

      Also, regarding the often-heard accusation that there’s a content bias towards pCARS. Please do me a favor and count the number of pCARS stories on any given week and see if it’s the most posted sim on here. It is not, not by a longshot. I post much more stories on AC, yet nobody seems to suggest that I have a bias towards them.

      Do you seriously believe that a highly-skilled physics expert takes time out of his workday write up a text like the above just so I can have something to “smother” other news with? If SMS would bother with stuff like this, nothing would ever get done..

      I feel like you are blaming VirtualR for the fact that titles you don’t like are simply more popular than those you think would deserve more attention. That’s not my fault and nothing I would post on here would change that…

      The fact is, pCARS & Assetto Corsa are the two most popular titles at the moment, by quite a large margin. I can’t control what people are interested in, but I do see the responses in real time, giving me a good idea what people care about.

      But yeah, you are right, something has changed since I work for SMS. It’s your perception of me, even though I have always been 100% upfront about my motives from the start you’ll always suggest that I’m not sincere, for whatever reason.

      I don’t have a guilty conscience, I run my site like I always have, bringing the news people want to read about while also supporting smaller sim titles and products.

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        Montoya, Thank you for your reply – it seems honest and sincere.

        I don’t consider myself to be anything other than a long time supporter of VR who has noticed the changing dynamic here, For clarity, I do not
        claim to represent anyone (silent, loud, major or minor) and I didn’t in
        any of my post’s – Don’t place that on my shoulders mate as it’s just not the case.

        My comment/comments were my own perceptions and thought’s and I did not at anytime include nor claim to represent anyone else or any other group. Not once.

        Yes you may likely be posting more pCARS if you did what you perceive from your audience. That’s likely a fact and I appreciate that.

        My point which was lost amongst the fire and the brimstone within the fire department was that I (and he freely acknowledged that others have said as much before me) have noticed that every time news arrives from other sources representing other platforms it just simply appears that it’s
        very quickly bumped of ‘top spot’ by another pCARS tid bit – thus
        keeping pCARS in the spotlight…

        Even if for example it’s not particularly a big important key information release such like new features or upgrades or changes etc…, no… often it’s something less important
        perhaps even frivolous that relegates other news to the background and this is often something that’s been done a thousand times before such like another video made by XYZ comparing something like reality vs game accuracy.

        I know how accurate the new games are, it’s foolish to think others don’t because hay… it’s a simulation title right? and yes sometimes it’s been done for other platforms too before you decide to even go their…

        Ihave pCARS, I joined up almost from day dot as a full member. I
        thoroughly like and enjoy the game, I have relished being a part of the journey. (Even though you and F1Racer think I don’t like that game based on my noticing what I see appears to be a bias of news content – Iam sorry but I just don’t see the correlation with which you form that comment, I mean, seriously –
        What’s not too like!

        It’s (my comment) not about this game is better or fan boy this over that. I am smarter than that, and I am definitely not that shallow. In fact I own all of the current crop of titles.

        Please don’t bookend me or pigeon hole me as representing a group or faction, That’s just not the case. My comments were my own, I posted them and immediately decided to self edit what I
        wrote because I felt it worthless to the discussion after posting it – I made a error of judgement in posting what i did and I recognized this and I corrected my actions immediately.

        Their was however no need for the fire department to do what they did. It was in fact perhaps a violation of someones rights to withhold, or moderate themselves – Something I will add is something that responsible people in the free world every day.

        It is what it is, But in closing do not go stating that I represent or claim to represent others. That’s uncalled for.

        Your moderator could make a simple apology for his actions and mishandling of this however… It didn’t need to happen or explode.

        All in all, thereafter, lets agree to dis-agree and move on from this mess. Maybe someone else may learn from it 😉

      • EZehnder

        Regarding content bias: you’re delusional.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        OK Phil, lets try and nip this in bud shall we?

        This idea of people complaining about pCARS getting top slot (when inevitably it will from time to time) is petty, childish and serves no purpose whatsoever.
        If you wanted to be better than me then your correct course of action, after the posts were removed, would have been to let it go and voice any complaints about me to the site admin.
        However, you instead called me out in public with some strange ‘my audience’ post which made little sense as I am merely the moderator and not the site admin.
        Maybe you thought this was deserving since I had called you out in public on a post you made and shortly back-pedalled on by deleting it. So ok, I`ll live with that, we can call that evens.

        So, last night (on my clock) you wrote and submitted a post here that was not only inflammatory and petty but you also pretty much were calling on others to go somewhere else if they wanted unbiased news.
        That is a step too far.
        What that boiled to was you telling others to go somewhere else based on an uninformed opinion you had and somehow trying to assert that the order of the articles (pCARS being a top one in this case) had a bearing on the “legitimacy” of the site as a whole.
        Well moderator or not, I resent that accusation.
        It’s ridiculous to state that all the articles of all the other sims on this site are not legitimate because a pCARS article was posted last.

        OK, so you posted that and I read it and set about a lengthy reply. A reply that was not just for your benefit but for others who had any notion of claiming the same thing.
        It is becoming quite tiresome now, this theory that a handful of people have that because Montoya works for SMS that he is showing favouritism here on VR (lets not forget that even if that were true, it’s HIS site and not for others to dictate how they think it should be run).
        So I wanted to set the record straight and let it be known that those kind of posts, or any that bring VR into disrepute will not be tolerated. There were no threats made unless other than me saying that I would take action against such posts. You can call that a threat if you think you must.

        So when I submitted my reply, you had already decided to delete your post, so now it looked like I was replying to an empty post. Not only that but I think, as I still do, that you should have stood by that post and taken responsibility for it and left it there.
        Because I wanted to get my message out about this issue I thought it was important to let people see what I was replying to. So I resurrected your post.
        It was not to humiliate you in any way. It is a shame you could not have stood by what you said instead of deciding that you thought it wasn’t worth it. Clearly, seeing the posts you made today, that isn’t true.

        Here’s the bit you’re probably interested in:
        So, on reflection, I do think you should have been allowed to change your mind and not post it. My reply was charged with some emotion and it was written at 8:00am (my time) and I hadn’t been to bed yet. Not an excuse, just a fact. I didn’t want my reply to just not be valid any more because you decided to delete your post. This is why I re-posted it.
        You were right to be upset with that as much as I had the right to be upset with what you wrote because of it’s sheer content.
        So with that said, I hereby publically and sincerely apologise to you for bringing back your post after you had decided to swiftly remove it. I should not have done that as it was inappropriate and I should and do know better than that. Again, I will reiterate, because of the content of your post and how I felt it needed to be addressed for the benefit of everyone, I made the decision to re-post it with the thought that you would at least still stand by what you said.
        The pCARS listing issue was not even the problem for me. This has been mentioned before and Montoya has had to explain himself on more than one occasion. An explanation I don’t feel he owes to anyone.
        My issue was you having the audacity to tell others to go somewhere else for legitimate news just because you had a personal issue with the pCARS listing.
        That was inappropriate in and of itself and I suppose that is where my emotion came from when I brought your post back. Any post that tries to bring the site into disrepute will be dealt with and I will make no apology for that or any of my replies to you last night.

        This is Montoya’s site and it’s his rules. You either accept those or you don’t. If you don’t, you don’t get to post your objections in the manner that you did.

        Now, finally, as to the pCARS listing. I did state to you that the pCARS listing along with the F1-2014 article was posted some 15hours after the Assetto Corsa RC release article.
        Why did Montoya wait 15hrs to post a pCARS article after the big AC news ? Could he be that news actually came later and he posted it when he had it ?
        It is inevitable that pCARS will be at the top or the last one posted on occasion. But it is by no means always the case. Sometimes rF2 or AC or R3E will be the last one posted. Or do people just wait for the next pCARs news, which will then be top, to complain ?
        It is a petty argument and one that does not deserve this amount of coverage.
        All the articles are as freely accessible as the next one and even if pCARS was the top one, what difference would it make ? What advantage is there ? More sales ? More attention ?
        I think you will find the members here do know their own mind and know what they want to read and in what order.
        On the RSS feed it is the same, you can click any topic you want regardless of what’s at the top. Right now on my RSS feed which shows the last 20 articles, 4 are pCARS and 8 are Assetto Corsa.

        So lets just stop this petty ‘pCARS bias’ BS and get some more productive, constructive and thought provoking posts here instead.

      • Mark Quigley

        I think he has put the missus knickers on by mistake this morning, sounds like the elastic is chafing, I get right nippy when I do this………..by mistake of course :p

    • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

      Reposted as reply to Montoya.

      • David Hughes

        You seem to have a point about the news smothering, I think that is clear for all to see but not altogether surprising given the rumoured ‘marketing’ tentacles of SMS.

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        Cheers Dave.

      • MontoyaVR

        No, it is not. Stop stating your personal theories as if they were factual.

      • HardRock

        “I (and he freely acknowledged that others have said as much before me)
        have noticed that every time news arrives from other sources
        representing other platforms it just simply appears that it’s very
        quickly bumped of ‘top spot’ by another pCARS tid bit – thus keeping
        pCARS in the spotlight…”

        Are you sure it’s every time? Even if it is, if you look at the pCARS posts here the source of them (whatever it is, fan made videos, WMD posts, interviews, etc.) pop up not long before VirtualR writes about them. Surely you aren’t suggesting that the developers and all fans time their content solely to push whatever competing sim on a single site off the top spot?

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        Hi Hardrock.

        Mate I didn’t quote facts or figures thus my remarks probably should be taken merely a generalization based off what I see.

        Cheers dude, Keep racing man!

      • MontoyaVR

        Right, what you see. Like I said, it’s a perception issue.

        You see a pCARS story on top and you think: “OMG, another story to bump something else off!”

        Yet if you see an AC or rF2 story, you don’t think “Kunos/ISI must have release this to bump pCARS off!”

        Do you see where I’m going with this? It’s your perception that makes it so “obvious” when it is in fact absolutely normal.

        Before this current one, the AC release had been the top story for almost a day. Earlier this week, the NSX for rF2 was top story for almost two days. Yet I see no complaining there…

      • Jay Ekkel

        The only thing that “irritates” me on this subject is that a pCars article is always filled with link to pre-orders, website etc etc. Where as others (R3E/AC) rarely get the same treatment.

        For the rest VR is a good website to get a great summary of what goes on in simracing.

        People should less worry about these things tbh, and just enjoy the fact that the last 1-2 years we have been super spoiled with great games to write about and with their early access programs able to play and enjoy!

        Simracers unite!

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        Jay, You are a wise man my friend. A wise man indeed.

      • Sim Antics

        Well I see download links for mods or add-on content for other titles all the time but agree that R3E could have a re-direct to your new content when it becomes available since you are in a rebuilding period and need all the support you can get.

      • Jay Ekkel

        Just want to be clear, that this is Montoya’s baby and we visit here following his rules and requests. If you, me or anyone do not agree with how VR is run, we should go elsewhere for our news.

        I will come here either way, its a good site for news.

        Keep up the good work!

      • HardRock

        The patterns you see in the VR news and the facts should line up though, right? That was my point. Otherwise you’re just misremembering things. When you say you didn’t quote facts, just what you you could very well be factually wrong and in this case you are.

        You also said that there are more posts on VR about pCARS than anything else. Not true. I just looked through the RSS feed for the last 31 days. Here are the number of posts in all sim categories:

        Assetto Corsa: 37
        rFactor 2: 15
        Project CARS: 12
        RaceRoom Racing Experience: 9
        iRacing: 4
        Reiza (Game Stock Car): 1
        rFactor 1: 1

      • MontoyaVR

        It’s an even bigger conspiracy. I post a lot of AC news so that pCARS..I don’t know…. something with chemtrails?

      • HardRock

        I think you’re a double agent, hindering both AC and pCARS. See, at least I’m fair in my lunacy. 🙂

      • David Hughes

        AC has a lot of mods so there will be more AC news at the moment. The question is why PCARS news items end up in P1 at the top of the page for the most time despite this. I guess it must be coincidence, like PCARS being ahead of AC in the menu.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        If you worked for KS you’d be getting doubly slated right now 🙂 I think that’s how it works right ?

      • kahel grahf

        Don’t get me started with chemtrails…:O

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        “Mate I didn’t quote facts or figures thus my remarks probably should be taken merely a generalization based off what I see.”

        Well well, there we have it. You admit you didn’t quote any facts or figures and it was basically an opinion you had.
        Yet you saw fit to try and drive people away from VR with an inflammatory post, that you later wimped out on, all based on your opinion. That’s what my issue was with you, not the pCARS thing.

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        F1Racer – Stop maybe?

        Your embarrassing yourself – AGAIN.

        I WAS finished with this tirade.

        1. The disqus feature allows people to edit what they post. pretty simple I used it – Get over it. I admitted what I typed was wrong as evidenced by my editing it immediately.

        2. The rules don’t say one must stand by what they post – Show me where they do… (You just think that they should, but who the hell are you to think that? You don’t make the rules for the Disqus and at the end of the day your handling of this … well.).
        3. At any point are you going to be man enough to admit you did the wrong thing and reposted my un-edited comment which I had changed? But alas, I suspect you feel you did no wrong?

        Any way i’m done with it – MOVE ON MODERATOR.
        Nothing too see here.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        You’re so full of yourself aren’t you ?
        You’re the one embarrassing yourself mate.

        No.1 there is nothing to get over
        Your No.2 is just ridiculous.

        No.3: Another correction? Once again the writing comes before the thoughts.

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        Yup. Whatever. Sorry god.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        I think that’s enough crap from you for a while.

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

      I have no clue what you’re on about here regarding ‘my audience’. I am the site moderator, not the site admin. As such I have no control whatsoever about the articles that get posted here or the order in which they appear in.
      So most of this post is pretty irrelevant.
      I am surprised that you haven’t realised this as you seem to think you’re pretty clued up on how everything else works around here.
      So you could have saved yourself this patronising and preaching post because, quite frankly, this hasn’t done you any favours if you are looking to play up to being the victim who needs support from others just because you could not stand by your own convictions on a post you made and were called out on it (something I will address now).

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        You just don’t know when to stop do you.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Actually I do. I stop when I feel it is time to. Don’t you ?

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        Now I rampage.

  • dd101

    Stop discussing each other, discus products and features. Stick to facts and examples, add some opinion if you really have to, but don’t bring down someone’s else.

    So, any good “in action” examples / tech-videos of that SETA model? How many cars (%) got their data sorted for now? Is wet racing any good?

    PS I’m excited from day one, I’ve preordered limited edition to support the effort, modern approach and exceptional taste of developers (and to amuse my kids and guests), but I had quit following about a year ago.

    • HardRock

      “So, any good “in action” examples / tech-videos of that SETA model?”

      This SETA model has been in use for quite a while now. All videos you can find from build ~327 and onwards will showcase the SETA model in its various stages. I wouldn’t look at videos older than a few months though. While the underlying model was the same throughout, the individual tire compounds and the cars themselves were tweaked quite a lot in that time.

      “How many cars (%) got their data sorted for now?”

      The cars themselves are more or less done based on the physics tracker available to WMD members. About 95% of cars and their components are in release candidate status (could be 100% of cars that will be in the base game, I haven’t compared). That’s not to say though that edge cases won’t be found still, where they behave strangely and will need adjustment.

      As for the tires, it’s hard to say, because they don’t have a spreadsheet dedicated to them. However, given that only minor adjustments are made to them I’d say they are close to “done” as well. Of course like with all sims I fully expect the simulation to get more detailed after release as our PCs get more powerful.

      “Is wet racing any good?”

      I can’t really tell you, I usually drive on a dry track. Maybe other WMD members could chime in? 🙂

      • http://www.gtsimracing.com.au/ Phill Routledge

        i had a race just last night at Outlon Park and honestly HR, it was like sim racing nirvana 😉

      • dd101

        Thank you for useful reply.
        Another thing about any product (or feature), is not sea of good reviews/results (which most of items in market have, otherwise they won’t make it there), but what’s more important/interesting – to know bad sides / flaws that you don’t want to stumble yourself over.
        So, in terms of game – what’s top “not there yet” moments about pCars? And getting back to the topic, what is the worst “side-effects” of SETA at the moment(maybe it’s too forgiving, on/off-angles grip, how easy to recover, on/off load and reaction on pressure/cambers/etc)?
        Just like Kunos said in recent interview, all products are pretty OK in their (depth and) on-grip simulations, but main trick/difference starts in off-grip behavior.
        PS for me weight transfer and real suspension (data) topic is not closed for all products.. Hopefully I will be able to show it using “special test tracks” for products that support add-ons and telemetry/kerbs+slowmo for others..

      • dd101

        And as soon this is really popular and “technical” topic about pCars, here is a final one:
        – How many really fast simracers (iRating>3k) you heard/know of are racing or has switched to pCars already?

      • Roy Rki

        How can they switch if it’s not available?

      • dd101

        Good point, Roy! But there must be some at least some “funders” among iracers 😉 Let’s rephrase the question to “aliens”, wherever they came from.

      • Marc Collins

        The 95%/100% status report will prompt me to go try Project CARS again. Haven’t used it in several months, so hopefully it will feel more authentic and “finished” now. Content selection and graphics have always been exceptional. Just need some better-than-console physics and FFB to go along with them.

  • Jay Ekkel

    Cool article, can’t wait to give the final game a go!

    • Sim Antics

      The Honda Civic in R3E is simply Awesome as well as the other WTCC Cars you have recently added and the ADAC pack is a must. There ya go a good plug for the S3 studios guys. Smile and be happy.

      • Roy Rki

        Agree, RRRE is all I play now. WTCC at Zandvoort is always epic.

  • olddarth

    Looks like this debate can continue for quite awhile. Or at least until next March as PCars is delayed till then.

  • wajdi nujeidat
  • Chris Wright

    It seems, no actually it was, an awful long time ago when I made special trips to the arcade to play Sega Daytona USA. I remember thinking “hopefully I can play something this at home one day”. Well we’ve moved on so far haven’t we and when you read specs like this you have to be excited about what lies ahead. And yet still some people want to find fault.

    • Ghoults

      When people were living in caves it was considered good enough if you did not kill anybody by slamming a tree trunk into their necks in the cold dark night. Nowadays the social standards are higher. Same with everything else. Expectations are higher and rightfully so. If your standard of excellence is at sega daytona usa from 1994? then good for you I’d guess.

      Personally I want sim developers to push all aspects of the sim racing futher towards excellence and that means two things. First some basic things become standard. That means physics, graphics and general depth of the game being much better than sega daytona usa. Secondly it means that to improve you need to know what to improve. Unless you have created the perfect racing sim of the past, present and the future it will have flaws, weaknesses, bugs and missing features and if no one cares those things will never be fixed.

      • Chris Wright

        To say you misunderstood the point I was making would be the understatement of the year.

      • kahel grahf

        He has been punish by my reply… not sure I should brag about that tough…

      • Ghoults

        Bragging is probably too soon. You’d want a sensible thought first…

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Guys, enough. Ghoults, you did totally misunderstand Chris’ post so all this stuff that came after is pointless bickering.

      • Chris Wright

        Thanks for intervening. This one was bizarre.

      • Ghoults

        So you just wanted to get on your high horse and complain about the complaining?

        It always irks me when people take constructive criticism and respond with the typical “we can fly in airplanes”! If this was 1875 it would be 2 week joyrney on a horse so you should be thankful what you have received.

      • Chris Wright

        You, my friend, have some serious issues.

      • kahel grahf

        You could not be more wrong about primitive human’s interaction… So try not to relay nonsense… and actually study the subject before rambling on about common misbelieves…
        I won’t even start on the ‘nowadays’ part…

        Ralala so bothersome…but I still forgive your ignorance…

        The second part of your post make a lot more sense tough… perfect illustration that speaking about something you know always a better idea… 😀

  • stef4o23

    Enough bla bla.. Is it better than Live for Speed, Yes or No?

    • Gumshoe

      First you tell us how ‘good’ LFS is in an objective and factual way and I’ll tell you if pCARS is better in an objective and factual way 🙂

      Otherwise you’re just going to get subjective opinions covering both answers…

  • Kev

    Can’t wait to put this new tire model to the test with a gamepad on a Wii U LOL

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