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C.A.R.S – New Preview & Lots of Info

C.A.R.S – New Preview & Lots of Info

Three months ago, Slightly Mad Studios’ Ian Bell shared his vision of a community-funded simulation title right here on VirtualR. What many may have dismissed as a very much utopian vision has gotten extremely real as the studio has been hard at work for the past few months to turn a great idea into a working project.

Named Community Assisted Race Sim, or C.A.R.S. for short, the project will allow ordinary sim racers to become investors in a racing simulation title and get a share of the profits and unmatched access to the development process and a say in the title’s direction.

For the past few months, the guys at Slightly Mad Studios have been hard at work on all fronts as Ian Bell has revealed some exclusive details on the team’s progress. The legal work on the project has just been completed and SMS is ready to launch the project’s website and accept investors within the next 2-3 weeks.

The studio will be offering investment options that will fit any budged, starting out with a 5€ option ending with gold-level commitment of 1000€ and beyond. All investors will be getting access to downloadable development builds throughout the development process, the level of investment will determine the amount of influence each member has though.

While every investor will get to vote on the direction the new title will take, gold members get to participate in board meetings where the bigger calls will be made, always considering the requests from the regular investors. Gold members will even get source-code access to the simulation while smaller investors will be given script access to play with.

Slightly Mad Studios promise a completely transparent development process as all investors get to follow every single bit of progress and every single discussion the developers will be having. The SMS team will work out in the open for all investors to see, there will be no closed-off development forum as all investors get to follow everything the development team does, “even the arguments,” as Ian Bell points out.

C.A.R.S  will be used the stripped-down Shift 2 Unleashed engine as starting point, as the team will be adding new modules to it during the course of the development process, including a new DirectX 11 renderer, a new physics engine and new AI. Slightly Mad Studios expect a development cycle of at least 12 months until the finished product is ready, however all investors will be getting access to development builds throughout the process to keep everyone entertained.

Below is a first high-resolution preview, showing an immensely-detailed historical Lotus Formula One car in the garage. SMS is planning to release the first build shortly after the first investors joined, the first release will include a handful of cars and tracks to try out. The base content won’t be too advanced though as the investors will have the final say in the direction that the title will take and what content will be included.

SMS is planning to have fully-licensed content in the finished product, the team may be dealing with generic content in the development builds though while the licensing is being finalised in the background.

For years now, sim racers have been bemoaning the publishers lack of interest in sim racing and the missing influence on developing titles. It looks like Slightly Mad Studios will be changing all that with C.A.R.S.

  • DR.Joint

    sounds interesting, maybe i am in 😀

  • Diromo

    Yes, indeed sounds something original, something like fresh air, but I’m not buyng this one “no closed-off development forum”, becouse it’s impossible to create commercial product without it

  • mitch88

    This certainly sounds interesting, having seen that screenshot I think its something I will probably buy into.

  • Riches

    Looking forward where this will take us.

    Imagine a big investor comes along, buys the majority of the chairs and wants it to be an arcade racer.

  • F1Racer

    That Lotus screnshot is just nuts !  Hell!

  • Eduardo Pimentel

    One question: Where do I pay?

  • Philip Oakley

    I’m in. I haven’t got £1000, so I can’t get gold membership (believe me, if I had £100, you know where it’d be going…Slightly Mad’s bank account!) but I’m going to invest as soon as the oppurtunity arises.

    Would also be fantastic if development work could be sourced out to simracing mod teams. RMT, CTDP, F1SR, LMT, etc etc. As I work for CTDP, I’d be very happy shaping new F1, ALMS, GT, or touring car for C.A.R.S! (I don’t know, and neither does anybody else, which series and year(s) C.A.R.S will take.)

  • Philip Oakley


  • svizzy

    i’m interrested but not right now. finacial world doesn’t look good right now. no investments for me right now. at least not in a video game. i’m talking about more than 5bucks here.

  • BSR-WiX

    very intersting and refreshing. 

    On the other hand i raised some eyebrowes. 
    Having different investment amounts, and more input depending on money, will create ” Politics” 
    With Ploitics usually you get corruption…  

    The Shift 2 engine as a sim base would be awesome, if it where moddable. 

    PS: The Lotus Render does not really show where the want to go with ingame details, so i hope they share some more info soon. 
     All in all its good to have at least companys thinking about SIM related issiues.   Cool.

  • The Biff

    Awesome screenie!!!

    I’m going to be in for 100 euros.  Cool idea. 

  • svizzy

    but i take that cheap membership. seeing the development builds for a few bucks doesn’t hurt.

  • Nismo

    Bring it on i say. SMS are a great team and only produce quality products. SHIFT2 is agem even with it’s faults IMO. But this will be on a completely different level.

  • Ricoo

    Even if the project looks slightly mad (this one is bit easy), how could a simracer resist? 🙂

    I just hope most investers won’t want an arcad racer. I would hate that if I had invested more than 5 bucks.

  • Carbonfibre

    I fully support this notion by SMS.
    Only, I wished that screenshot was from rFactor 2.  *DONT_KNOW*  (Yes we haven’t seen ISI’s model in full yet but, I don’t expect them to be as fantastic as that, following the WIP) …hmm, not sure how to feel.

    I think I may have got overwhelmed by the sudden influx of new sims from having to wait so many years.  😀

  • joseki

    I am sure that arcade racers are not enthusiasts enough to hijack the project even though they are bigger group than sim racers.

    I’m definitely in!

  • gpfan

    Want to hear about investment return…. “get a share of the profits and unmatched access to the development process and a say in the title’s direction” 

    Lets see if i want invest 1000 or 2000 euros i get better profit over an year banks can offer….

    Lets say 2000 euros at 10% a year it´s not a bad investment….. if they will offer better rate than banks i´m in with some of my savings….. 

  • F1Racer

    Its 1000 Euro’s Philip so thats around £880.  A little better.

  • gpfan

    … More i want to know how it´s going to work, shares? money without return? 

  • F1Racer

    Yeah its a sim-racers dream really.  To not only help develop a sim but to have a say in it’s direction.  There will be a lot of voices though and there is bound to be disappointment and tensions along the way, but if you know this going in and are prepared to weather any potential storms, the rewards could well be worth it.
    Digging the name too but it reminds me of the movie 🙂

  • GTEvo

    i will buy everthing!
    But a Demo and a non “Rent A Game” Concept must be guaranteed.
    Without any Demo(take a look at “your” crap NFSShift 1 and 2 Monster-Bugs Ian), i will never buy, or maybe invest in a Product wich i couldnt test before.
    All the Marketing Gags, each Announcement and no Keep Smiling from any sympathies Simracepioneer like you Ian will make a difference.
    Thats not an personal criticism at Ian Guys(im a Fan from him, since he and his his Team brought the FIA GT Mod for F12001 and offcourse “The Mother of all Mods” the legendary GT2002 Mod), for sure not, he is always motivated, really “near by the Basic” and always highly emotional.
    Thats absolutley cool and that is what we want.
    A Creator who “comes from the Street”. ^^
    But sorry Ian, in the Past we bought  too often “The Pig in the Poke”.

    Only Isis rF2, i will buy blind!, if rF2(not only rFpro)got laserscanned Tracks, i cant imagine that there is something really much better for us crazy Simracer.

    BTW: Always if i hear the Rousseaus GTR2002.mp3, i got Goosepimpleshowers^^
    This Soundtrack is the best Simrace Music ever 😎

    “Take it Isi”

  • Nismo

    WOW, no pointless picture from you this time Holger, nice one

  • Niels Heusinkveld

    Looks like they bought Racing Legends lotus 49 😉

  • The Biff

    +1   No pay to play rent a game crap. 

  • gpfan

    The render is beautiful!

  • Mark

    yes it is a case of deja vu isnt it!

    count me in though 😛

  • pastor_ted_haggard

    this is possibly one of the most pointless things ever conceived.
    so person with the most money has the most influence? brilliant. its almost like the society we live in today. 

  • kuato

    you get 2 dawson’s creek

  • F1Racer

    would it make more sense is everyone had equal say no matter how much they put in? 
    Then everyone would be putting in 5 euros and expecting to rake in the profits.

    Anyway you can’t compare this to societys screwed up system.  This is a totally different thing.

    Besides, Justin Beiber is one of the most pointless things ever conceived.

  • F1Racer

    would it make more sense if everyone had an equal say no matter how much they put in?   
    Then everyone would be putting in 5 euros and expecting to rake in the profits.  
    Anyway you can’t compare this to society’s screwed up system.  This is a totally different thing.  
    Besides, Justin Beiber is one of the most pointless things ever conceived.

  • svizzy

    one should read the thread over at nogrip forum much info there.

  • traind

    Innovation in the business model is pretty rare… kudos to SMS for advancing this! The render looks fantastic, as per usual from SMS. 

    Not sure how many sim racers will actually put up significant cash so I have some doubt SMS will raise enough to really make this a financially viable approach… unless some wealthy simracers decide to pony up lots of money.  Still, lots of people investing small amounts to be involved in the game development, even in a small way, will probably guarantee the same people will buy the final product.  Except even that looks wrong as someone on here has already laid out demands before they buy another SMS title….. 🙁  

    I hope it works out for SMS and the community!

  • Loanwolf

    If I invest in this , It will be a business investment ,so I’m only interested in what is going to make the biggest $$$
    So arcade or Sim , ps3 xbox or PC  is irrelevent as there are Plenty of Sims or Arcade racers to choose from, from a gamers point of view, What ever brings in the money gets my vote and I believe Ian has more experience than most when it comes to racing Sims/games and business of these types.
    So If it’s a long term investment then a subscribtion model would be relevant , if it’s a short term then a one of commercial game would be relevant.

  • SergeantBoner

    West Brothers springs to mind…

    And since most serious simracers spend their money on better equipment I guess the only ones who have any money left to invest in the game are the arcade racers which probably will end up with a game thats wholly controlled by one joystick, easy ai and a centre pivotpoint car physics(cmr) with ‘cool’ cameras and lady gaga music á la EA. Oh and only released for the PS3/Xbox treefiddy since ‘thats where the money is’.

  • Jim Slimjim Cassi

    The Lotus 49 just made me wet myself…
    Now if all the cars from that season are made.. you got a winner.

  • Philip Oakley

    Why do you say that? This is the community’s chance to get a hardcore sim-racing title, with DirectX11 Graphics and a good physics engine from SMS.

    Everyone is being so negative about this, but isn’t it what we’ve been moaning about for years? “This title is so arcadey, it’s rubbish, the onscreen wheel is laggy, etc etc”. Now we have our chance to put these right, and what do you do? Moan.

    The sim-racing community is a joke. Or, at least it is on here. I’m going back to RaceDepartment.

  • Philip Oakley

    Aha, but SMS are a UK company. The only reason why Rob didn’t say £1000 is because most people who visit this site aren’t from Britain, and from central Europe or the Americas.

  • SBKRacer

    wish it was a true sim but we all know how this is play out 🙁

  • Marcel Offermans

    This is definitely an interesting proposal. On the one hand it’s almost like open source development where everybody has access to the code and an influence in the outcome. On the other hand, it is a commercial venture. I will be looking forward to learning more about it before I judge. So please get a site up and running and engage the community!

  • Nismo

    Don’t worry Phil your not the only one that feels like this. If it isn’t this idiot SergeantBoner it’s that  Meton Sanga or some other fanboy. But really if they used theri brains and read up on some things before ranting and trying to act cool and be mr hardcore then they would realise that this is a PC title first and will be downconverted to run on the consoles. EA has nothing to do with it so the music will not be this LadyGaga, although i’m sure with a name like Boner, he actually digs Gaga

  • Nismo

    Don’t worry Phil your not the only one that feels like this. If it isn’t this idiot SergeantBoner it’s that  Meton Sanga or some other fanboy. But really if they used their brains and read up on some things before ranting and trying to act cool and be mr hardcore then they would realise that this is a PC title first and will be downconverted to run on the consoles. EA has nothing to do with it so the music will not be this LadyGaga, although i’m sure with a name like Boner, he actually digs Gaga

  • Alex Ball

    This. I still can’t get over how dire Shift2 is. Looks wise it’s bloody great, but everything else blows. the menus are shit and slow, the controls and feedback are buggered for everyone I speak to, and the cars just don’t drive properly. I’d much rather see them pushing out engine updates and fixes than showing off yet more shiney screenshots.

  • Davor Mirkovic

    Sounds interesting, we’ll see what happens.

    BTW, what happened with their Ferrari sim that was mentioned few years ago?

  • phil23

    I’m not a fan of either Shift games, but I’ve had a conversation with Ian Bell and he’s given plenty of answers to questions over at No-Grip. He has admitted certain faults and concessions that were made to Shift, especially from EA’s commercial point of view. Though Shift has some basis in reality, many things that were required by EA diluted the final product.

    I’m willing to invest at a lowish level to begin with as Ian did a good job of reassuring me of where they want C.A.R.S to go. Hopefully if things look good I can invest more further down the line 🙂 .

    Just be open minded for now 😉 .

  • Hompe

    Lotus :*

  • rusty

    i’m keen. but the first sign of misaligned expectations, i want my money back OK?  :-$

  • Philip Oakley

    I still maintain that EA made Shift what it is, and SMS just did it for them. Who are SMS to fight against the might of EA and the NFS brand, after all?

    SMS and Ian made GTR2, one of the best sims ever created. I’m confident C.A.R.S. will be in the same vein.

  • Daz

    Gotta admit that the render is indeed a fine piece af work, but it is only a render. All the eye candy on the world isn’t any good if the in game physics are weak.

    This project makes me think of the old ‘West Racing’ project froma  few years ago. They offered up some stunning renders but that was about as far as we ever got. Hope this project can live up to the expectations that the Lotus render has set.

  • F1Racer

    Exactly, it doesnt matter if its sim or not, what matters is have something that sells well to enable a good return on your investment.

  • F1Racer

    You’re quite right Philip.  I dont think SMS have any problem whatsoever going hardcore sim if they wanted to.  But we all know that doesn’t reach the largest market and you may have lot of investors on this one. 
    Some may want to make the game that sells to the largest market so they can get the best return on their investment,  others may not be so bothered if they can just get a hardcore sim with all the trimmings out of it.    Which way do you go then ?
    Unless that direction has already been decided and investors need to know that before going in.

  • F1Racer

    You’re quite right Philip. EA watered down Shift 2, no doubt about it.

    I dont think SMS have any problem whatsoever going hardcore sim if they wanted to.  But we all know that doesn’t reach the largest market and you may have lot of investors on this one.  

    Some may want to make the game that sells to the largest market so they can get the best return on their investment,  others may not be so bothered if they can just get a hardcore sim with all the trimmings out of it.    Which way do you go then ?  
    Unless of course that direction has already been decided then investors need to know that before going in.

  • kuato

    “We’re planning to keep the player car and especially the cockpit to this detail level on track using DX11 tessellation. Not sure how it’s going to run yet though, lot’s of optimisation work to be done over the first 6 months or so of development. The investors can enjoy the ride from the start though.

    For non DX 11 machines we have a LOD that’s about twice what we had in Shift 2 but with much more material and shader detail.”

  • Philip Oakley

    Yeah, whenever I say C.A.R.S. is going to be amazing, people look at me in a weird way 😀

  • Philip Oakley


  • Ricoo

    With C.A.R.S. I want to invest in a sim otherwise I could easily buy EA shares :

  • Firestarter

    West Racing 2005

  • StarFoXySxv550

    I understand it may only be a placeholder title but I hope it will get a re-think before release.

    It screams this at the moment….

  • StarFoXySxv550

    So this won’t be a PC-only title? Good! Consoles need some sim love too, and as much as I hate to agree with “Private Erection” up there, the console market is where most of the money is these days.

    Surely is makes sense to port it to console. Only the lazy developers blame console ports for a dumbed down PC games. If it’s scaled back for console both formats get what they want, it’s the extra dev time deveoplers don’t like because time is money, as they say.

    Saying “we made the game to fit the limit of consoles” doesn’t really cut it for me anymore. Start with a PC worthy game (DX11, 1080p, 50 car grids, etc) then make it fit the needs of the console (720p, 16 car grids etc) after you have a fully optimised PC game.

  • stabiz

    Oh I hope so. I thought iRacing was a poor name (it is btw) but this is the world record holder of horrible-name-for-a-sim.

    The screen looks so super tasty, too bad we wont run those kind of visuals for years.

  • SergeantBoner

    I guess everybody is too serious here, thats no problem you guys are wankers so please sod off!

  • pastor_ted_haggard

    i dont gedit.

  • pastor_ted_haggard

    why is it a totally different thing? 

  • Captain Underpants

    I’m intrigued by the idea, but hesitant at the same time. I think it’s a brilliant idea, and the way of the future, but I also know what people are like, and reckon they’re being pretty brave inviting the likes of us into their development process, and that it’ll most likely end in tears.

    Still, I reckon it’s worth the minimal risk of dropping 5 or 10 bucks on it just to be in on the ground floor of this experiment, even knowing that the game I want probably won’t eventuate.

  • Captain Underpants

    This is exactly the attitude that is everything wrong with this world. Please don’t invest in this, or anything for that matter, if your only motive is profit. There’s other, better ways to do that if that’s all you’re interested in.

  • Cenotaph

    I’m a bit skeptical. This is something I would be interested in investing in, but I’m not sure I trust SMS to deliver a great sim at this point.

  • Ghoults

    Agree 100%. I don’t see sms being capable of doing a sim. Maybe a poorman’s arcade racer but I already have gt5 and forza4 soon. Shift2 and its mods are meh.

  • Loanwolf

    Is that a OxyMoron?

  • Loanwolf

    @ Captain Undies , Is that an OxyMoron?

  • AmTGMan

    You have to remember that SMS is formed from the team that did GTR2, one of the greatest sims on the market. They know how to make a good sim, and now they don’t have EA forcing them to compromise for greater marketshare.

  • Ghoults

    One of greatest sims?? Gpl, rbr, n2k3, iracing those are the greatest sims. Gtr and gtr2 had totally flawed physics and imho those two products are the perfect proof why I am EXTREMELY suspicious of them getting any good sims done ever.

    I know their history all the way from scgt and f1 2000 and 2001 making that gt mod. They have always been good with making stuff look good but it has also been very bad in regards to physics. The fudged tires in gtr2 was nothing less than an epitome of failure imho.

  • Ricoo

    Even iRacing tyre model has its flaws since they will replace it with a new one… :/

  • The Biff

    omfg ghoults you are a total DK fanboy.  Give it up buddy GPL didn’t even model tire wear the the ride heights to the vehicles are all wrong yet you got a hard on for GPL….hahahaha.  iR has one of the worst transmission models out there and yet you call it a sim?!!!   Do some research before you open your big mouth.  You’re the typical no brain, mindless iR fanboy that makes me laugh so hard.  John Henry buys insurance for his yacht from your stupidity.   LMFAO.

  • Cenotaph

    I loved GTR2, infact it was the game that got me into this whole simracing business. Problem is, these guys had no trouble claiming Shift was a great sim when it clearly was not even a sim. Blaming EA or hiding behind semantics like Ian Bell did doesn’t really cut it.

  • Philip Oakley

    That’s relevant to your name then…because you’ve got it the wrong way round.

  • SergeantBoner


  • Michael

    Why bother spending a £1000? Wait 2 years and spend £30 on the game. It’ll be no different as a result of your input than any other racing game.

    Really there are 2 types of game companies

    (a) Ones that listen to their customers, are successful and make brilliant games (e.g Valve, Mojang)
    (b) Ones that don’t, and aren’t.

    Asking your potential customers for £1000 and telling them that for £1000 they will then listen to you is beyond stupid.

    If you contribute to Valve’s games they pay you, not the other way around. Come and work for me, it’ll only cost you £1000?

    How are the people “investing” going to make any money if they are the same people who buy racing games? It sounds like a ponzi scheme except they pay you your “profits” out of your own money. Perhaps that’s perfectly legal way to do it.

    There are plenty of grass roots sims that will no doubt give you a better return if your objective is ‘pay to get some influence over the product’ and there are a couple of free 2 play racing games that are imminent – a better bet to throw your cash at.

    As for this? If you’ve any sense, you won’t even pre-order it. Wait for a demo, then spend your cash.

  • Michael

    And I kinda giggled when I saw they were deciding the name of the game and ‘screenshots’ before they supposedly even know what it’s going to be.

    You really think they are waiting for you to give your input in a meeting? 😀

    If shift sold 5 million copies and shift 2 similar (or even less) and there wasn’t enough cash made to fund another game, run away. OTOH, if there was and the developer just wants to risk someone else’s money instead of his own, run faster and further.

  • Michael

    >  even knowing that the game want probably won’t eventuate.

    Well of course it won’t.

    The only current consensus of opinion on a game is the sales. It’s quite clear that games that sell a huge amount (where we might conclude that a lot of people like the content of the game) are, typically, the complete anti-thesis to the game that most so-called ‘sim racers’ want.

    But, that’s his idea afaict. Get people’s fantasy that they will make money from the venture to change their minds about what the game needs to be.

    So instead of saying they want the features they want, they’ll start deciding what features they imagine the stereotypical buyer of popular games wants.

    At best the game will be like every other console racing game released on PC – shift, F1 2010 etc etc. You may as well spend £30 on it, and moan on a forum somewhere about bugs / bad handing and input lag etc etc.

    At worst, it’ll be a game that appeals neither to the people who supposedly invested to have their say, nor to the people they hope to make money from.

    What it’s never likely to be is a sim that appeals to the people who are going to throw money at it, that also sells bajillions of copies to, presumably, console plays that also gives investors a pay day.

    We saw the mess that Simbin made when they tried to do that…and let’s face it, there are number of sims that would already be exploiting the console market if they thought their game had mass appeal. The cleverest of these, at the moment, knows it’s about giving a service to sim racers, not about writing game after game. Instead they sell a service, and the game part of it, just gets updated and improved. The downside is, there aren’t enough sim racers to make the service cheap.

  • Mark

      I think the 1st thing we should vote on is to NOT to allow any nay sayer’s to become members! 😎

  • SMS

    Thanks for all of the feedback chaps. The site should be live in a couple of weeks and will contain lots of details to answer all (hopefully) of your questions.

    Here’s a couple of pics for jollies.

  • Nicolas Grignon

    Thank you SMS… I’m sure you will deliver and that there is really no comparison with The brothers West’s unrealized utopia.  You have a good team, some good cash already (from S1 and 2), a very good graphic engine and Shift (and maybe the whole sim) comunity behind you… so, I feel completely secure on this one even more so when we think that you are now free of EA’s (unbearable) leash. Good luck, and I will be in line to get the final product.

  • Nicolas Grignon

    Maybe you should ge some more cash licencing your graphic engine to SIMBIM, they have a good physics base but their engine is areally dated now. 😉

  • Gaiajohan

    Why would they do that? Current SMS is for a big part the ‘old’ Simbin from GT Legends and mostly the development of GTR2..

  • joseki

    This “distribution” looks a lot like the discussion of the early days of iRacing. Some people stays open minded but many have some strange mission where they try to turn everyone else’s opinions for their own beliefs.

    You know that you don’t have to invest to the project if you don’t like the idea?

    If you don’t like the idea, fine and of course, all of you can express your opinions but please forget the constant bashing and let others create their own opinions, i’m so tired of haters to whom nothing is ever good enough.

  • joseki

    My comment is not just for Michael

  • colsaber

    reminds me of

    simular renders and promise 🙂 only not updated or ever heard of again.

    But we shall see 🙂

  • Christian hamilton

    Obvious you are a total Papy fanboy. I find it funny that you rag on GTR2 so much when GPL(a great sim) had a totally flawed tire model. You think the physics are realistic in GPL??? It is a great sim but it was very flawed. F1 cars in 1967 did not drive like they do in GPL. GTR2 got a lot of things right. Yes the tire model wasn’t perfect (show me one tire model yet that is near perfect in any Sim) but it was the best most realistic made (at it’s time of release) Obviously you are from the school of sim realism = extreme diffulculty. That is simply not the case. What I think GTR2 got right was the fact that it was relatively easy to drive it reasonably fast. But finding that last 3,4,5% was extremely diffucult. But I don’t know why I’m wasting my time writing this as a Papy fanboy like you already has his mind made up

  • Kris Baxter

    I wouldn’t say the fudged physics was their fault tho, all Gmotor engines suffered from peculiar physics, especially where the tires are concered, they can only work with the tools given them.

    I think they have the potential to develop something great, heck, something like rFactor would be great, I just want to be able to create custom championships and race the flavour of the month, legends GTL style cars, GT cars, touring cars, whatever.

    I haven’t read yet if the return on investment involes shares, if I am part of the success of a great game that sells millions, it would be nice to know I can make some money back too. 

  • Riches

    For a early alpha build it really looks and feels promising.
    Was doing some testing tonight.
    It’s better than i expected (thinking of the Shift heritage it has).
    I donated my 25,- for support, who knows what future monster they create.
    For now the developers are really active on the forum.
    See if they still are after months of nagging and whining. 😉

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