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Automaniax Porsche Online in Legal Trouble?

Automaniax Porsche Online uses Slightly Mad Studios’ work without permission for their new title.

Back in April, I posted a first story about Automaniax Porsche Online, a new title that first info was surfacing on.

After quite a while of silence, there have been plenty of news on the project today, most of it being of the rather worrying kind.

Earlier today, Automaniax released a first video trailer of their Porsche Online racing title. The trailer quickly caused a stir in the World of Mass Development forums as Slightly Mad Studios’ distinct graphical quality is easily visible from watching the trailer.

The release of the video did not just irritate the members but stunned the studio staff themselves as Automaniax Porsche Online is using the studios work without their permission as Ian Bell confirmed in the WMD members forum:

“We were in negotiations with Automaniax and the head of Porsche marketing some time back with a view to us creating a product for them. We delivered some work to them. The contracts were not signed, the agreed funds were not received and we stopped the work”, Ian Bell commented. “We’re stunned here to see our work appear there.”

As clearly visible in the trailer, Automaniax is using Slightly Mad Studios’ Madness engine and assets created by the studio to run and/or promote their product without proper contracts and permission in place.

This isn’t the first sign of problems over at Automaniax as VirtualR received a mail from people close to the project a while ago, suggesting that the whole effort is in financial trouble and might not see the light of day.

Has this led to the questionable decision of using the assets without proper permission in place,  a decision that would be even more significant by the fact that Automaniax’s product is sporting the trusted Porsche name to attract customers – A proven name that auto and sim racing enthusiasts around the world put their trust into without thinking twice?

VirtualR is trying to get some more details from Ian Bell on the issue soon. Until then, sim racers should be cautious regarding their product as there seem to be some highly unorthodox business methods involved.

 

  • Anonymous

    Should we not wait for all the facts before we judge? 
    It strikes me as weird, that one would put out an official trailer, when knowing legal problems would arise?

    But then again.. weirder stuff has happened.

    • steve farrell

       You didnt even read the news article did you. There was an official statement made by Ian bell about this.

      • Anonymous

         I’m personally waiting on Automaniax’s word on this…mostly to find out what the hell they were thinking with this blatant infringement. It just blows my mind how a company can do something this stupid.

      • http://www.facebook.com/ricardo.machuca.1291 Ricardo Machuca

        Theres not much of a doublesided story here.

        SMS was contracted to do it, and was never paid. Simple as that.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DPB22Q3UKZGB5HLQJZFDD3MQEE Phantom Mark

        Surely would have been better to air this dirty laundry behind closed doors, there is no good reason for anyone to see or even hear of this ?????

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

         Welcome to the internet.  What with Twitter, Facebook, blogs etc..  no news goes unpublished.

      • http://twitter.com/Ghoults myName

        It is “Ian Bell says” SMS was contracted to do something was was not paid. I am not saying Ian is liar or deceptive or anything. Good journalist ethics say that getting the view of one person does not mean it is automatically true.

        The problem with this news piece is that it reports this as a fact when it is not. Even court decisions are not final not to mention if it is someone’s forum post.

        Clearly virtualr did not take neutral position in this. Reporting about conflict between two sim developers that is about unpaid work is different than saying automaniax are stealing sometihng and should be avoided.

        Neutrality is what we expect. Not opinionated news articles. I can form my own opinions. I don’t want to read them as news from any site.

      • http://www.facebook.com/the.bastard.poet Alejandro Ramirez

         This “Ohhh VirtualR is biased bla bla bla” has to stop, it’s ridiculous.

        First of all, the article isn’t interpreting things we’re unsure of as facts. The article says the aX trailer has SMS engine and assets: fact, and it’s obvious to anyone that this is true. The articles says Ian Bell said this and that: fact, he said it, I saw it in the WMD forum. Ian Bell, not Virtual R, is saying Automaniax is using content without permition. What VirtualR made was exactly that report about a conflict you mentioned. The final part of the article is speculation, but one with solid reasons, and the “avoid aX bit” is a sound warning at the moment, given how things are looking right now.

      • http://twitter.com/Ghoults myName

        That’s not what I said. I meant that this news item is poorly written and is not neutral. Not that virtualr was in some way biased… Calm down…

        Again, if someone says something it is not automatically true or fact. The only fact is that Ian said something. Not that what he said is automatically true. It is just an opinion and his point of view in this matter. The writer of this site has not even seen that document and he is not even qualified to say whether the contract has been breached or not. He is not lawyer or part of the contract. He is a journalist (and sms employee I think?) and that’s it.

        The whole article is speculation which takes the comments from one side as truth and labels the other part as thief and unreliable and advices people to distrust them. If you think that is normal news writing then you are wrong.

        I expect higher standards from virtualr. I expect neutrality above all and in the past virtualr has in my opinion done excellent job. But this was just bad writing.

      • pez2k .

        It’s not just Ian Bell saying it, Ricardo was part of SMS too. I would expect he knows what was going on from first-hand experience.

      • http://twitter.com/Ghoults myName

        Yes it is just that. Virtualr are reporting what someone says as a fact.

        First hand experience does not mean fact. You don’t even know what ricardo did at sms yet you are sure he has some reliable inner knowledge? Aren’t you taking a leap of faith there? Even if he has some inner knowledge he has also signed an nda agreement which directly prevents him from writing his informations on a website like this.

        All we have is comments from Ian Bell. While I’m not saying anything else I say that that’s all what we have. Ian Bell’s comments. If automaniax/sms decides to take it into court we have disagreement or conflict about x issue. If court gives a verdict then we have victim and crime doer.

        But to say we should all just avoid dealing with automaniax because other developer says they are in breach of contract and virtualr reports it as truth and says they are unreliable… I think that’s just not good journalism. That’s bad journalism if you ask me.

      • Brees Foster

        Well dude you better get a helmet with good restraining belt because this is not the last you will hear of stuff like this. We are in a time where companies are looking at the dollar and nothing else some of them dont even worry about if they are caught, its about how much money can I get before the door closes. Anybody remember the Falcon four incidence. Nobody thought that would ever happen in the sim modding world but it did. So here we are again!. I am not taking sides I am just saying dont act like it cant happen, I am glad someone pointed this out, now it is up to me to find the truth. It stopped me from buying a product that was built upon stolen ideas and work before.

      • http://twitter.com/Pandamasque Pandamasque

        And Ian Bell cannot possibly be deceptive in any way, right? I think that there could be and likely is more to this. Automaniax side of the story about their agreement with SMS is probably different. I personally wouldn’t trust either party.

      • Anonymous

         Well, some of the things in that trailer were taken directly from one of Darren White’s demo reels, as well as some other stuff from Shift 2. I say it’s not looking good for Automaniax.

      • http://twitter.com/Pandamasque Pandamasque

        So what? Maybe they had an agreement and were allowed to use that, then SMS changed their mind and accused them of the IP infringement.

      • Anonymous

        No, i simply think a statement from one side, or the other does not necessarily tells us the whole story. 
        No matter what we read on the web.  As somebody said, things like this should not be resolved in the media, but in a legal environment
        .

    • Brees Foster

      there you go! Do you know how many “Legit companies sell other peoples products as their own, and how many sell contracts to things they cant even produce? If and thats a big if, they get caught nothing happens, it was all just a mistake, and here is the money we took from you!

  • Anonymous

    They didn’t even bother to change the tree placement.

    http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3003/pcarsautomaniax.jpg

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_37IN6F2QL6W3MHPS6XM7LJY5IY Derek Speare

    Everyone loves ’em some juicy scandal…I have hot n’ fresh, buttered popcorn for the show…Seriously, however, I hope the sim racing community doesn’t end up being the loser in this battle.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DPB22Q3UKZGB5HLQJZFDD3MQEE Phantom Mark

    Wouldn’t be the first time a company has used unlicensed assets, and won’t be the last, as long as people remember it rubs both ways eh 😉 

  • Philip Samuelson

    Wow that didn’t take long!

    -Blacker.

  • Skytrill .

    “Madness Gate”

  • http://twitter.com/buddhatree Mike Coleman

    Why on Earth would anyone steal SMS content?? How many “screenshot games” do we need?

    • Alejandro Gorgal

       Herp derp.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Markus-Ott/100000878526131 Markus Ott

      Until all jealous haters are satsified and cannot hate anymore! ^^

      • http://twitter.com/buddhatree Mike Coleman

        Jealous of what Markus? I’m a WMD/pCARS member 🙂

      • Big Ron

        I guess you are not a member, but just a downloader. There is a difference.

      • http://twitter.com/buddhatree Mike Coleman

        That is exactly the kind of response I would expect Big Ron. Discriminating against your own members. Put that is part of daily life at WMD. Anyone who doesn’t drink the koolaid is branded and ostracized. Great “community” 🙂

      • Big Ron

         Do you think any active and participatory member of WMD would even care about people like you? No trustworthy and respectful memberof “any” community would share this kind of comments on other platforms. Should I show you how many games out there are “screenshot games”? What makes you believe that pCARS is just all about screenshots? I know sites like GTR4u or Nogrip where hundrets of sites full with screenshots of every simulation or other racing games exist, rFactor, rf2, Race07, iRacing., Gt5 or Forza.. nothing different to pCARS. People do screenshots from games they play, but therefor those are not screenshot games.Your comment was just respectless and incendiary, nothing else.

      • Anonymous

        he did pay you know.

        I found the comment funny to be honest 🙂

  • gt3rsr

    I don’t get this. If this game was eventually made, it can’t be based on this engine. Besides legal problems, Automaniax authors would have to have access to SMS’s engine source codes and tools. So this video is totally irrelevant.

    • http://www.facebook.com/alan.dallas.1 Alan Dallas

       You do realize the Madness engine is what was used for Shift 1 and 2 right?

  • http://twitter.com/stuffbygecko gecko

    *DEEEEERRRRRRRRP*

  • http://twitter.com/brafxs Mr.None

    ok but how they modified all the pCARS build without the official tools ? because even pCARs dont have some features (online mode – ok engine has this as we can see in Shift).

    SMS just gave all the stuffs during the deal prospect ?

    • pez2k .

      The only original footage in the trailer is of a single Porsche model driving around tracks we know SMS have in their back catalogue. I interpret Ian Bell’s comments to mean that SMS modelled that car and delivered an engine build featuring it and one or two tracks.

      It’s entirely speculation whether Automaniax actually has anything more than the single build shown in the trailer. This could simply be a trailer to keep the hype train moving while they start a new game from scratch, behind schedule. Either way, they’re showing something they don’t own.

  • http://jckronbauer.blogspot.com Julio Cezar Kronbauer

    Is it a viral? Porsches in Project CARS? I wanna believe it will be true…

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Ford/100001922734704 Steve Ford

    VirtualR  AKA The National Enquirer AKA TMZ.

    First 2FMSH and now this.

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

       You know where the door is.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Ford/100001922734704 Steve Ford

        You don’t like it, flex your moderator muscles S and ban me.  😉

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Your wish is my command. 

  • Anonymous

    the article was a good read until “Until then, sim racers should be cautious regarding their product as there seem to be some highly unorthodox business methods involved.” What about not getting biased? Rob shouldn’t get involved in the politics of this issue but rather just inform of what’s going on. As stated by him “VirtualR is trying to get some more details from Ian Bell on the issue soon.” He clearly heard one side and that more than once and never heard from the other side but still it was good enough for him to warn simraces to stay away from it! What about hearing the other side as well and not bringing judgment by yourself Rob?

    • Alejandro Gorgal

      Im not exactly sure what the other side can say to justify this to be honest, there’s evidence that the contents of the trailer have been stolen from other promotional material made by SMS staff dating months ago, as I see it there’s no bias into believing there’s something fishy going on with AutomaniaX.

      • Anonymous

        I still think we should not use the word ” stolen” when we are merely bystanders and don’t
         really know what the agreements between the two company’s where.

        We should not point fingers to anyone, since most of us just read something on the web, nothing more.

        It might be clearly SMS content, but we don’t know what was agreed, or was not for that matter.

        It strikes me as weird, reading something, and then start using accusations, as if we where there, when all was agreed. If there was never a business discussion, they would not have the engine to start with. So they did not ” Steal “.
        Whether they have the right to use it, is an entirely different matter.

    • Anonymous

      Agreed, warning people off a product based on one side of a story sets a dangerous precedent

  • Mark

    Never heard of this.

  • http://twitter.com/StarFoXySxv550 StarFoXySxv550

    “release of the video did not just irritate the members”

    What the heck are they getting irritated for? lmao 

    • http://www.facebook.com/alan.dallas.1 Alan Dallas

      Irritated because us Members of WMD are also Investors. If (big IF) WMD/SMS assets are being used by another studio without a contract I would want to know about it.

      This is the kind of thing that can hurt relations between WMD and it’s Investors. It says to the Investors, “Hey! We can’t control our assets, but we’ll still gladly take your Investment money!”

      • Marco Hooghuis

        Being a WMD member is NOT the same as being an investor! There is a chance you get your money back, but the real investors are first in line. Don’t expect to make a profit out of this one.

      • Richard Hessels

        Most of us investors?
        In the end most of us are betatesters who get the boxed game for half price.
        Regardless of the profits made afterwards.

        What really irritates me is a little stone in my shoe.
        But i could not care less about company legal issues.I presume SMS got a good lawyer, let those do their work.

        Still a pitty.. was looking forward to test out those Porsches.

      • Phill Routledge

        Hear here Alan. !!

        Touche my friend Touche indeed!!

      • http://twitter.com/StarFoXySxv550 StarFoXySxv550

        Even *if* you were/are an *investor* you invested in PCARS, not SMS. You do not own all of their assets. You lose nothing, you gain Pcars.

        What happens in other parts of their business out side of pcars really isn’t your business. I guess you guys will also be irritated when SMS uses their assets for pcars2 (or any other future products) without needing the WMD portal or your cash too?

        SMS can control their assets just fine, if they can’t, the courts will (provided there has been a genuine breach of contract somewhere). WMD investors have nothing to worry about as you can opt out of your WMD contract at any time, as is my understanding, if not just be rude to the staff on the forum and you’ll be given a full refund.. right? 🙂 Investors rarely care about relations, they care about cash, ask your local banker.

      • Eric Zehnder

        Except, see, it does. I’m not saying I’m entitled to any money or return on this, of course not. But if they were due, say, $1 Million from this work then that is several laser scanned tracks in pCARS or perhaps a few extra developers they wouldn’t otherwise be able to afford.

      • http://twitter.com/StarFoXySxv550 StarFoXySxv550

        I kind of see your point there Eric, but members getting irritated at the release of some footage that uses the Pcars engine is stupid, especially since they don’t know whether it has any adverse effect on the company (SMS), i.e SMS will suddenly go bankrupt because the lease of the game engine fell through. Only one comment was made by SMS at that point, and it doesn’t mention anything like that.

        Smells of people just getting worked up over nothing (or something they don’t/can’t have)… as usual, which is kind of what you’re saying. Your contract entitles you to whatever they can get done, not every possibility. Even if they did secure an extra $1 million, who says that money is destined to be invested back into pcars, or they would receive it before the even of pcars development?

  • Anonymous

    I still think , they should settle it in a legal environment instead of the media. Whoever is right or wrong, or whatever the agreements, or disagreements might be, they should never be discussed in any form of media. It just hurts both party´s .  If all legal agreements are done correctly by one or both sides, The problem will resolve itself.
     

    • Olivier Prenten

      Very bad advertisement indeed!

  • Matt Orr

    Yea… there certainly is something fishy here. And not just on the Automaniax side. I mean really – “Oops, we gave you like… most of what you need where is our money plz” – yea… don’t quite think so. Popcorn is a poppin, because watching this unfold will be funny.

    Talking about the inevitable comments… of course. 😉

  • Annemieke de Rooij

    Sad to see this happening outside of their office walls.

    There must be two sides to this story and lets hope they figure it out, I mean an top quality official Porsche game, who doesnt want that…

  • http://twitter.com/ipitydafool Andrew Male

    I think the true colours of this website have just been revealed…  Even if the claims are true, this is an astonishingly biased article.

    • http://www.facebook.com/HoboHealy Joshua Healy

       Are you f****** serious?

    • steve farrell

      I’m thinking you might be a member of the automaniax team.

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

      The true colours have just been revealed ?  Hehe.  These kind of comments really do make me laugh.
      If these claims are true, then they’re facts.  Explain the bias here.  What plus is this for pCARS ?  Because that’s what you’re getting at right ?  Some warped reasoning lets you think this is good for WMD/SMS.   Maybe it`ll get more people signing up ??

      Please do explain.

      • http://twitter.com/ipitydafool Andrew Male

        “If these claims are true”.  Exactly if.  They may well be true but passing judgement isn’t exactly impartial.  Maybe this blog doesn’t have to be, I’m just used to it in most journalism..

      • Anonymous

        Hahaha. I liked your comment. Not because I agree with its contents, but because it made me laugh.

      • http://twitter.com/ipitydafool Andrew Male

        Good for you.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        You call it passing judgement, I call it giving an opinion. 
        And if you think journalism is impartial I can’t imagine what you are reading.

        All being said Automaniax doesn’t look like it can come out of this clean.

      • Anonymous

        Come on F1Racer you don’t have to blindly defend every article, the last three paragraphs are pretty damning despite only having one side of the situation. A better way to have handled it would be to contact Automaniax or Porsche and if you got no reply then at least you could put something like ‘We contacted Automaniax/Poesche but they declined to comment’ and leave it up to the reader to decide without the hatchet job at the end of the article which could land you in bother if there is any legality in Automaniax using the engine. Right now it’s all *ifs* but you’ve gone to print so to speak without having the full picture.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        You are coming at me from the wrong angle here Revvin.   A lot of people seem to assume that I have input into what this blog publishes and I dont. 
        I am nothing more than a member with moderating abilities.  That’s as far as it goes.  The site is Robs and he controls the articles.

        So what you are referring to as blind defence is merely me speaking my own opinion as a member of this site.
        I think it’s a bit naive of people to expect that there wouldn’t be a slant.  If you or anyone else were working for a games company while working on a blog, you’d have a slant too.  Oh you’d like to think you’d be totally neutral but you wouldn’t be.
        It’s normal for Rob to defend SMS or side with them.  And as has been said, it’s Rob’s blog and he can post what he likes, how he likes.  If people don’t like it, there are other places to go.

        If this had been one mod group stealing from another, people would be treating this in a whole different way.  Slamming the other party without even bothering with ‘the other side of the story’.  Seen that so many times.  But because its SMS….  well they can’t be trusted to be telling the truth right ?

      • http://twitter.com/buddhatree Mike Coleman

        While I totally agree with you F1Racer, that if this had been a mod team’s work, everyone would be screaming for their heads without the “other side of the story”…..

        But I also agree that the story is very biased. You say that’s to be expected. But it’s not what we were told when Montoya was first hired by SMS. He said (paraphrasing) that nothing would change and he would keep his “day job” separate from this site – like he has always done.

        But anyone who reads this site knows that’s not the case. Of course it’s his site and he has every right to what he pleases. But this is clearly a pro-SMS blog.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Ford/100001922734704 Steve Ford

        The 2fmsh story was clear that this site is biased.  There was an even larger thread about macros in the iRacing forum and that didn’t make this site because pCars wasn’t around at the time.  hahaha.  

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        If it were biased, your little post would be gone by now don’t you think ?

        Anyway why are you still here Steve ?  Why show up somewhere you clearly don’t like to be ?

        After your ban you came back under a different name so your could, in your words, avoid further confrontation with GRH.  Since you’ve been back all you’ve done is slag off VR and be involved in arguments with others.  
        You can fix that or I can.  Up to you mate.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        You’re twisting my words a little here Mike.   I didn’t say it was to be expected.  
        My meaning was that anyone working for a company would find some portion of themselves however small sticking up for that company.  They are putting food on your table.
        So I think it’s a bit naive to expect complete and utter impartiality and if there is, then Rob is a better man than most of us.   
        But that’s not to say that just because the article involves SMS that by default there has to be bias against the other side.   It’s just assumed because some people put 2 and 2 together and make 5.
        What you were ‘told’ seems to be correct.  He’s kept his day job here (which isnt his day job now as SMS is, and isn’t his job anyway, its his hobby).   
        Do you think think that had Rob not worked at SMS that this article (and the iRacing one) would not have been published here ?   Maybe, maybe not.  Who can say ?   Some people seem to think they can say though.

        And lets presume for a moment that this was a pro-SMS site.  So what ?    How does that affect things really ?  Its not getting much more coverage here than other sim new sites.   Ive seen pCARS stuff on other sites that never even makes it here !  
        If it was pro-SMS, again, it doesnt automatically mean that there are sinister motives for posting this article and the iRacing on.   But it sure makes some people jump to that conclusion.  Isn’t that a bias too ?
        What would pro-SMS mean anyway ?  More exposure on the game here?   Wow, how bad would that be ?

        Clearly there is something to this article unless Rob and SMS have it all wrong.  So was it biased to put the article because it involved SMS or would you have preferred not to know about it at all because of SMS.    Then if it all comes out in the wash that Automaniax was being naughty, people would maybe wonder why the story wasn’t on VR in the first place.
        Rob has said before, he’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.   He can’t win with some people here.

      • http://twitter.com/spamsac spamsac

        F1 Racer, whilst I don’t know the the people behind any of these comments or their intent, reading all of this I do think, if you don’t think it rude of me to suggest this, that you take a step back and pause for a moment. I’m reading comments from others (not all I might add, but certainly a number of which you are directly replying to) that you do seem to be putting the emphasis on all the wrong parts and taking things far too personally. Step out of your moderating shoes and pretend you have no personal attachment to this site, and you might see some of the above comments in a slightly different light.

        For example, your replies to Revvin about your personal involvement/lack of involvement in this or any other article to appear on this site are a great case in point. I see absolutely nothing in Revvin’s replies that point any kind of finger at you, and any “singling out” appears, to me, to simply be in that he is replying directly to you. To say “who do you mean by ‘you’?” and some how take that to mean it is you personally is a bit of a leap and assumption on your part; I happened read that very much as a general, informal “you”; not in any way singling you out personally. Maybe I read it wrong, but I wouldn’t presume to be so certain and would ask first before taking anything from it.

        To address this topic in general, and also this applies quite specifically to some of the points you have raised, as I said above in reply to you, the reporting here is not balanced in my eyes. Of course, it stands to reason that Rob’s reporting on such a story will be, at least in some small part, be influenced by his position at SMS. That isn’t to say it will automatically be one sided, or biased, or unfair, but he obviously has to be careful what he says about SMS seeing as they employ him. That is true of pretty much any one in any job where they don’t work for themselves. However, this story is not presented in a fair and/or balanced way in my opinion. There is no mention of anything from Automaniax’s side, there is no mention of trying to get a hold of anyone there to ask for their take, and given it is a “breaking story” far from resolved, it definitely comes down on one side of the dispute. I don’t know what Rob knows (if anything) from behind the scenes, but it doesn’t really matter when it isn’t conveyed within the story.

        To repeat what I said before, this is Rob’s site, he can write what he wants, and if people don’t like it, they can go elsewhere. However, the point I made and I think (at least that’s how I read it) that a number of others are making, and this is where you are “singled out” for want of a better phrase, is that you are effectively defending it as a fair story. It is you that are here making insinuations; you are insinuating (or rather putting words in peoples’ mouths) that when they point out this isn’t particularly impartial or fair and balanced in its presentation, they are somehow stating this whole story in some way benefits SMS directly, or Rob has put this story up solely to boost SMS. I happen to be of the opinion, and I’m sure I’m not alone, that this story isn’t good for anyone. If all of the implications that seem to be being made towards Automaniax are correct then it is bad news for their product, it is bad news for the end users, and it’s pretty sad for what is a niche community desperate for every title they can get.

        Some users on here have a real bee in their bonnets about SMS, about Project CARS, and about Rob’s involvement with them/running this site. I’m personally a bit sick of the whole thing; it bores me. But there seem an equal number far too quick to jump on any comments around this subject and dismiss them are something they are not. I don’t know Revvin, but his comments here read to me as perfectly reasonable, and what’s more he’s taken the time to be clear and constructive in what he’s saying and hasn’t just made the (sadly all too common) “LoLz Rob loves pCARS, pCARS sucks” type comments.

        I really don’t envy you moderating these boards; I find it painful enough to look through them, let alone have to get involved in dealing with half of the tripe that gets spouted. But sorry to say, I think you’ve got this one a bit wrong. I only hope you read this and take it as someone trying to be constructive, and not a personal slight against yourself or Rob.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Firstly, thanks for the constructive post.  Hopefully I can respond with a constructive answer.
        I`ll tackle it paragraph by paragraph if I can as your post seems very tidy that way….

        The reason it might seem that I’m putting emphasis on the wrong parts is probably because Revvin’ decided to make it personal with his very first reply and from there the topic in hand pretty much didn’t come up.  He may have made reasoned points and may have said things I agree with but if that is backed up with a personal dig at me then thats the part I’m going to focus on.  If he hadn’t have accused me of ‘blindly defending’ then maybe this would have turned out a whole different deal, but I took offense at that.  Not to mention that he was wrong.   I am very open to hearing both sides of the story but I don’t think we`ll get Automaniax’s side here and as it is not available there only is the one side to write about.
        People know there are two sides to every story so it’s up to them to realise that without harping on about it and make their own opinion with that in mind.  It’s obvious already that this is just one side of the story. 
        What I am defending, apart from the insults Revvin directed at me in every post,  is these repeated accusations of bias which I know isn’t the case.  It’s just a story that we only know one side to and we don’t have the other side so it can’t be written about.   But I`ll bet you if Automaniax issued a statement tomorrow, Rob would post it here.    Just because we don’t the other side of the story, should it go unprinted ?   If that was the rule, the newspapers would be pretty empty every day.
        What needs to be understood how the moderator role works for me.  My original posts to Andrew were nothing at all to do with my role as moderator.  That was me as a member so I was, to use your words, outside of my moderator shoes.
        As a moderator, I try simply to moderate posts that break the guidelines or fall out of the zone of acceptability. That’s it.  I won’t take any crap and if you continue to break those guidelines, I`ll send you packing.  Simple as that.   Thats as far as I go as a moderator.
        If I make a post that tells people to stop arguing or stop using bad language or insults, then thats me as a moderator.  ANYTHING else is me as a member and I should be treated as such.
        I would rather never have to moderate but, lets face it, some people here make that task an impossibility.   People seem to think that because I’m a mod, that I’m in cahoots with SMS.  Well sorry to disappoint but I am not.  Rob works there, I don’t.  My loyalties are to me and the only thing above that is that I will moderate this site to ensure the guidelines are stuck to.   I hope that is clear because I won’t stand for accusations against me that are not true.

        Well either you read that part wrong or I did but if you read it again it seems like Revvin was referring to ‘you’ meaning me as management of this site, as if I, along with Rob, have some say in it’s content.  Again, I don’t.  I moderate, that’s it.      Again some people think that because I’m a moderator that I have the same loyalties and allegiances as Rob.  Again, I dont.  I moderate and that’s it.

        I’m not sure you really know what I do think of this whole situation.  But I’ve read enough posts from people at SMS to know that Automaniax have apparently used assets of SMS without permission.  SMS are taking legal action already on this so clearly that is the side of the story that SMS seem very clear on.  Some people just like to make a big hullabaloo about bias because SMS is in one corner and Rob works there.  Same with the iRacing hax story.   Rose-tinted glasses an’ all that.

        I’m not saying the story is fair.  Nowhere have I said that.  Whether I think it is or isn’t though, is irrelevant.  What I said was that I didn’t believe it was posted deliberately to give SMS some brownie points like some insinuate.  Bias means a leaning to one way, so if Rob is leaning against Automaniax in this article, then he must be leaning towards SMS.  Well I don’t see it that way.    While this article doesn’t show Automaniax in a good light, I’m pretty sure Rob wouldn’t just post about it without knowing maybe a bit more about it than he can let on.  Also this article doesn’t exactly do SMS any favours either.  So I would like to know who Rob is biased towards and explained in what way.  Someone enlighten me.  The article is what Rob already knows about and what he is able to say on it.  It’s not there just to stick it to Automaniax for the fun of it.  It’s news and isn’t that what this site is for ?   Some maybe think that because it involves SMS that maybe Rob shouldn’t have posted it ?  Or had both sides (not possible).   Well, again, I don’t.  I think this is a valid article and it’s not just a load of made up stuff.   I don’t know, but I’m guessing Rob will have asked SMS if it’s ok to post this beforehand.  SMS aren’t going to put themselves in a sticky position of allowing false info to be posted so here it is.

        Revvin’s comments may have seemed reasonable to you because you weren’t the one he was insulting and talking to like he was my father.  Nor did I like the tone of his posts, so he got the same back (and then some) and didn’t like it.     You bite me, I bite back harder. 
        Take your post for example,  you’ve stuck up for Revvin’ here and thats fine.  But you talked to me in a decent way so hopefully I have responded to you in a similar fashion.   Respect is earned, not given.   So at the moment, you have mine.

        I hope I’ve explained myself well enough.  It is 5:50am here so I have an excuse lined up if I haven’t 🙂

      • http://twitter.com/Michael_42 Michael

        “The reason it might seem that I’m putting emphasis on the wrong parts is probably because Revvin’ decided to make it personal with his very first reply”

        Well, perhaps you realise why a “moderator” needs to be more than the site simply picking the first buffoon with too much spare time who posts a lot. Because otherwise he just ends up trapped between his own vacuous biased long-winded opinions and his new “job” (see the twerp moderating nogrip and pcars for another prime example)

        You might have thought a moderator would have been nipping these petty personal fanboy arguments in the bud, rather than becoming one of the key contributors to many of them.

      • http://twitter.com/spamsac spamsac

        Cheers for the reply.

        I just find the whole thing pretty sad. Far too much time and energy is spent on discussing the same roundabout arguments that go nowhere, and not on constructive, positive things. I hope for everyone’s sake (not least yours) things turn around in time. I won’t hold my breath… 😉

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Yeah in the grand scheme of things this is a very petty thing to be arguing about.  It’s not like any of us have a large vested interest in this.  It won’t change daily lives too much unless your calendar had a space in it for this Porsche game.   Yet we debate and fall out over it. 

        When you read about recent events like that in Aurora at the cinema, this becomes pretty much a total nothing.

      • Anonymous

        “Maybe I read it wrong”

        You read my post correctly thank you

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        So are you saying that when you said ‘you’ in that post, you referring to the general ‘you’ and not me personally ?

        If so, perhaps in hindsight, you should have made it more clear or phrased it better to avoid confusion as it is clearly open to interpretation.

      • Anonymous

        Here we go again, you’re just looking for an argument where there is none, ‘Spamsac’ was correct when he said “some how take that to mean it is you personally is a bit of a leap and assumption on your part” – and it was, but you seemed to want to take everything I said and twist it to continue with your confrontational attitude and that’s your problem not mine. Spamsac read and understood my replies just fine and judging by some of the people hitting the ‘like’ button on my posts others understood them too. I tried to word my replies in an adult manner without resorting to the kind of childish dialogue many other posters here seem to get away with, I thought that would be welcome but obviously not.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

         (reply to below)….

        No I am not looking for an argument.  You really have to stop these unjust accusations!  I just want clarification.  Maybe I just want you to tell me categorically “Yes, when I referred to ‘you’ I was not referring to you personally but the general ‘you’ ”   
        So far, despite me asking you twice now, you have not done that so that is why this is being prolonged.     
        The like button does not mean they understood your replies.  It just means they are against me because I am the big bad argumentative moderator and certain same people just ‘like’ any posts directed against me.
        Finally, it doesn’t matter how many others ‘got’ your post.  You need to make sure I do as it’s me you are talking to and me that has asked you to clarify it twice.
        The only reason I have asked for clarification is because in the past people have confused my role here and assumed that I have input to the sites content.

        Now if you can understand that, as you would have me understand your post, then maybe you will honour me with an answer.

      • Anonymous

        (reply to below)

        Your combative response to each of my posts can only indicate to someone you are looking for an argument. I’ve tried to word my replies in an adult manner but you’ve just taken that the wrong way, seemingly purposely to continue your apparent desire for an argument. You’re quick to tell others to be mindful of their tone; you might want to take your own advice otherwise what other conclusion can people draw from your replies?

        People are against you and use the like button against you? You’d rather concoct some fantasy than actually believe that some people like Spamsac read my post and understood it and liked or agreed what I posted; after all it’s a ‘like’ button is it not?

        It does indeed matter how many others ‘got’ it as really your behaviour so far makes your view to me unreliable. Earlier you asserted that you are a “largely quiet” member who “hardly post these days” yet you only have to look at your postings from the last few days to see that’s not true, as I said 8 posts in under 24 hours in just this one conversation. You also said “It’s hardly up to Rob to produce Automaniax side of the story though is it ? That’s up to them” when I questioned why VirtualR had not got Automaniax’s side to the story. I replied “If Rob wants to post a story based on one side it’s not up to Automaniax to respond to every story that may appear on the internet or any other media” to which you then bizarrely did an about face and said “Why would Automaniax respond to every story on the Internet ?  That’s preposterous” which is precisely what I’d said in my previous reply, you’re just not making sense and going around in circles. In my first reply to your reply to my original post I said that I knew you had no input into the article but you’re still trying to base an argument on that original wrong assumption of yours that nobody else appeared to make.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

         (reply to below)   Credit where it’s due mate. You are an expert at twisting words that people say and misinterpreting them to support your own argument.  Well done.  

        My responses are combative whilst your’s are adult ?  I have not insulted you or been anywhere near aggressive.  Persistent, yes, but only because I am asking you to clarify something for me, which I can only assume you are now purposely not doing.  Either to drag this out in order for you to continue to try and make me look like the bad guy here or because you know that you phrased it badly in the first place.    I don’t see anything wrong with my last post to you, in fact it anything it was to ask you to resolve this so we can clear the air and move on.   I am very willing to do that and you are not.  It takes two to make an argument btw.  I have no desire to argue with you and as you are not going to help end it by answering my question then I will end it by making this my last post on the subject.   It’s a shame you couldn’t just to the right thing and answer a simple question.  I thought you were better than that.   I never classed you as one of those members who would be like this.   I guess you live and learn.
        I only tell others of their tone if they go outside the guidelines. Beyond that they can debate all they want so I’d only be ‘quick and mindful’ if the situation called for it.

        I did not single out Spamsac when I said that.  Why would I do that after I told him I respected him for his reply ?  He seems a very decent guy to me.  There is no concoction here.  The devil is in the detail and I do notice the same people hitting the ‘like’ button on posts that are from people talking to me with an opposing viewpoint.  The post will be liked simply because its going against me.  This is not fantasy or some paranoia. It happens too much to be coincidence.  Obviously I will not name names here but I am very observant of it.  Now it’s quite possible was ‘liked’ by people who agreed with and understood your infamous post, but I just throw that variable in there so you know that you cannot simply assume your post was liked because people didn’t misunderstand your post as I apparently seem to.

        I thought I`d already cleared up that ‘largely quiet’ issue when you misundertood it the first time.  All the things you accuse me of, you are guiltt of yourself !   Failing to understand things that I’ve said and when you questioned this the first time I cleared it up for you !   
        Again, just for you,  I said I WAS largely quiet in here since the iracing fiasco.  Clearly that is no longer the case in this thread but yet you want to include my many posts in here to argue that I am not largley quiet.  You sir are making an argument where there isn’t one !     
        So just to be clear, I was largely quiet, I am not longer largely quiet.   Due in no small part to yourself.   You get me into this debate then you make an issue of me posting a lot when I said that up until that point I hadn’t been.   Thats nuts.

        Another misunderstanding of yours….  When you said ‘it’s not up to Automaniax to respond to every story that may appear on the internet’,  I responded with ‘Why would Automaniax respond to every story on the Internet ? ‘       To clarify for you,  I was highlighting your inane exaggeration of Automaniax responding to EVERY story on the internet.      I don’t even know why you wrote that.   No-one suggested something so ludicrous as Automaniax responding to EVERY story on the internet.   We would only have required that they respond to this single story.    Again, it was simply an exaggeration on your part that I highlighted as a literal comment.   It was a silly response from you to even say that.   That is not a response I expect from an adult.

        You may have said that I didn’t have input into the articles here but my assertion, and indeed the very crux of why we are still debating here, is that you did indeed seem to insinuate that.  
        So lets see if we can clear this up once and for all.  Lets see how willing you would be in your next reply to end this.     You said this to me…..

        “A better way to have handled it would be to contact Automaniax or
        Porsche and if you got no reply then at least you could put something
        like ‘We contacted Automaniax/Poesche but they declined to comment’ and
        leave it up to the reader to decide without the hatchet job at the end
        of the article which could land you in bother if there is any legality
        in Automaniax using the engine. Right now it’s all *ifs* but you’ve gone
        to print so to speak without having the full picture.”

        This is the famous paragraph….  so are you telling me it is impossible for someone to interpret all the ‘you’s in this paragraph to personally mean me and assume from it that I, like Rob am involved with what got printed ?    Things like ‘you’ve gone to print so to speak’  to which I would say, no I didn’t.  Rob went to print.   I have no input here, I simply moderate.   Which is basically how I did respond.    I simply clarified, based on interpreting all the ‘you’s to personally mean me, that I didn’t have that input.   You can honestly say that there is no way I could have or should have interpreted it that way, especially as I told you earlier that people in the past have already assumed I worked with Rob on this sites content.     If I am indeed mistaken in interpreting it that way then can you not understand how easy that has happened and how stubborn you are to want to clear it up but instead just blow your own trumpet of how adult you have been and how many people liked your post.      
        I am quite willing to admit I misinterpreted what YOU intended it to mean if you are willing to admit you maybe could have phrased it better.

        Lets see how adult you can be.

      • Anonymous

        I didn’t say you had input into the article F1Racer I said you don’t need to blindly defend it as you appeared to be doing because of your role here and from your past replies in other threads including some really quite immature ones aimed at people criticising VirtualR in the iRacing ‘hacking’ debacle a few weeks ago.

        The title of the site read’s ‘VirtualR.net 100% Sim Racing News’ the first paragragh on the about/contact page reads “VirtualR.net is the leading news resource for the sim racing community, offering news, downloads and in-depth reviews on anything that’s of interest for fans of virtual racing.” But whenever VirtualR faces criticism its always the same fallback to “well it’s just his personal blog” the site is advertised as a sim racing news site but as with any media outlet be it an online or printed publication you can expect some amount of bias, a little slant to use your words but the last three paragraphs go well beyond that and should it be proven that Automaniax has some form of legal right to their content then they would be well within their right to start legal proceedings against VirtualR to get a retraction and apology and in an extreme case perhaps even seek damages as he’s posted rumours of their financial state and suggested potential customers stay away.

        As for your comment about modding, we’re not discussing modding here, you’re just deflecting. I don’t get involved in those squabbles and like to hear from each side before I make any decision on it which is precisely what VirtualR should have done. Again you seem to want to cynically manipulate this into suggesting that those like me who think VirtualR should have got facts from both sides are somehow strongly biased against SMS. You couldn’t be any wider of the mark if you tried if that’s what you are suggesting of me as my comments at VirtualR will bear out and the fact I’m a paid up member of the pCars beta and encouraged a friend to do likewise.

        For now though I’ve wasted far too much time on this, it’s a lovely summer evening so I’m off out on my bike, have fun!

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        “I didn’t say you had input into the article F1Racer I said you don’t
        need to blindly defend it as you appeared to be doing because of your
        role here and from your past replies in other threads including some
        really quite immature ones aimed at people criticising VirtualR in the
        iRacing ‘hacking’ debacle a few weeks ago.”

        I didn’t say I had input into the article either.  I said I didn’t have input into the articles that get published here.   You did infer that when you responded to me because you stated the following

        ” it would be to contact Automaniax or Porsche and if you got no reply
        then at least you could put something like ‘We contacted
        Automaniax/Poesche but they declined to comment’ and leave it up to the
        reader to decide without the hatchet job at the end of the article which
        could land you in bother if there is any legality in Automaniax using
        the engine. Right now it’s all *ifs* but you’ve gone to print so to
        speak without having the full picture.”

        Who is the ‘you’ that you keep referring to ?   Me personally or VR ?  

        Why are you incorrectly presuming that I’m ‘blindly defending’ this because of my role here ?
        What’s my role got to do with it ?  Firstly it is not blind defence, it is an opinion, same as everyone else.   Secondly I don’t always post here always because of my role.  I am allowed to post like anyone else am I not ?    Or does being a moderator exclude me from joining in now ?     Don’t give me that ‘because of my role’ crap.    I post because of my role as a MEMBER here, and I will be the moderator if and when that is needed.  Try and remember that will you ?

        As with the iRacing fiasco, I get the impression that people seem to assume that this article is written in order that SMS/pCARS may benefit somehow.  At least that appears to be the insinuation when people talk of bias against Automaniax.  I’m guessing they question that bias because of where Rob works so it must be assumed that they think it’s a deliberately written article to somehow favour SMS/pCARS.    I simply want to know how they reason that and what advantage SMS/pCARS will get from this.   
        Where is the blind defending in that and why is it blind ?  Why is only MY (original) post blind ?

        Referring to mods is not a deflection.  I don’t need to deflect anything.  Its to make the point that this is getting more attention that if it were modding stuff because a) its SMS involved and b) Rob works at SMS.
        People are again assuming that there is some alterior motive to posting the article because of a) and b)   

        You can keep your opinion to yourself about the iRACING thread.  A good many people went nuts and posted some really stupid stuff over that, so don’t go singling me out.

        The last 3 paragraphs seem to be the hot ones so let me offer my OPINION on those.

        Paragraph 1:  Rob is merely stating that VR received mail on this subject and isn’t making any direct inflammatory or libelous remarks about Automaniax

        Paragraph 2:  The whole paragraph is a question and Rob is not directly stating anything against Automaniax.

        Paragraph 3:  Hmmm, maybe could have done with the 2nd part of this paragraph but even so, if you had to nitpick, the use of the word ‘seem’ is likely enough to make it very arguable if anything came from it.

        Rightly or wrongly, thats my take on that.  Whether me working at a law firm for 22 years meant I still don’t know jack about it, I dunno. 🙂   I was the IT Manager but you pick up a lot of stuff – or not.

        One last thing as a reminder, Revvin, this isn’t about me agreeing with the article or not, or even blindly defending ‘every article’ which clearly is not the case as I’m largely quiet and hardly post these days. So that’s quite an exaggeration on your part. This is about others who blindly harp on about bias and think that, I dunno, SMS put Rob up to this or that VR is controlled by SMS.   If you want immature comments, look there mate.

      • Anonymous

        I find your tone immature and more aggressive, the same way you went in the iRacing ‘hacking’ article. As to singling you out, you’re a moderator you’re supposed to set an example not pour petrol on the fire – you might want to remember that.

        I don’t know why you’re getting so angry and defensive I’m discussing the story and giving my opinion as it says on the about/contact page. I find the tone of the story very biased and it’s clear when reading it where that feeling can come from when the author is writing the story based on one side of the story. You try to deflect by bringing up the squabbles over mods which has nothing to do with these titles and yet here is VirtualR acting in the same way, posting a strong view based on one side of the story.

        You accuse me of exaggerating your posting habits here and yet in under 24 hours in one single article you’ve posted eight times – hardly the behaviour of a “largely quiet” member who “hardly post these days” so who is exaggerating here?

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        Are you saying I should be singled out because I moderate ? So I should be a target if I get involved in topics ?
        I wouldn’t go down that road mate.

        You can find my tone any way you want.  I really don’t care.  Yours isn’t exactly friendly.  You also failed to address any point I made.
        If it’s aggressive then that’s because I dish out in the manner I am given.  If I’m pouring petrol, it’s on a fire you already lit.  Why don’t you set an example too btw.  You think non moderators shouldn’t ?  Dont come at me with insults and not expect me to react. 
        I do set an example by not insulting people as you do and I don’t use bad language like others.
        I WILL get involved in debates though and it they heat up they heat up.   As long as the posts are within acceptable guidelines, its all good.   But we’ve done this dance many times now so we all know that right ?

        You still don’t get the thing with mods eh ?  Never mind.     It’s hardly up to Rob to produce Automaniax side of the story though is it ?   That’s up to them.   Clearly this isn’t just a case of bias as you so easily assume.  There is obviously substance to this. Or I take it you have no faith in Rob to post articles that may have merit to them.  Or is that just the case where SMS are involved.  
        Maybe try reading the thread in the WMD forums and get a bit more informed.

        Yes Ive been active in this thread responding to the usual trash talk.  UP UNTIL then I was largely quiet.  So no exaggeration.  Check my profile.

      • Anonymous

        I never implied you should be singled out or become a target I said as a moderator you should be setting an example. I’ve poured no petrol on here I made an observation, gave my opinion on the story. Your replies have been patronising and rude not to just me, belittling others point of view because it doesn’t match yours. You’re picking a fight where there is none, it’s a discussion not a battleground and as a moderator I thought you would have been aware of that.

        If Rob wants to post a story based on one side it’s not up to Automaniax to respond to every story that may appear on the internet or any other media but if he chooses to post a story like this then people like me will be concerned he could leave himself open to litigation and some will question why and as some have in this article’s comments section will question his integrity. I’ve read the WMD forums and it’s just a mish-mash of information and speculation.

        As for your posting frequency, anyone can see your posts to date and see that you’re far from being “largely quiet” who “hardly post these days” I’ve come here to share my opinion on the story, something that according to this site is encouraged but instead I’ve wasted time responding to your aggressive defensive posts and I’m not willing to waste any further time on you as its clear you’re becoming very angry and reverting to the same behavior as the iRacing ‘hack’ thread.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

         “. I’ve poured no petrol on here I made an observation, gave my opinion on the story.”

        Oh that’s funny, that’s just what I did.  Different rules for you and me is it ?

        You seem to enjoy coming across as the head teacher or parental figure.
        I don’t like your accusations either.  I haven’t picked a fight.  If you look up it was you who responded to me and accused me of blindly defending whatever it was.   Then you go on and on about moderator this and moderator that, immature this, immature that.
        I`ll moderate as I see fit and I will post as I see fit. 
        It is a discussion, yes, so I will remind you to lighten your posts so it can stay this way.  I’m only responding to what you throw at me.  So it’s up to you what you decide to throw.

        I’m far and away from being ‘very angry’.  You just assume that because of how I write my posts.  I said in the iRacing thread that I wasn’t going to take any more crap and that a recurrence of the iRacing thread won’t be happening again.   That ‘crap’ includes personal attacks on me.

        You’re trying to come across as the innocent victim here when it’s you who’s been doing all the pushing.  I’ve just pushed back and you should know by now that I will do that.

        Why would Automaniax respond to every story on the Internet ?  That’s preposterous. Perhaps they have something to say on the Tom Cruise divorce or the upcoming Olympics.
        Or maybe I could have been referring to this story only ?  Hmmmm.    If there is a response from them over this I’m guessing it will be done behind closed doors. 

        You seem to be of the opinion that Automaniax gets the benefit of the doubt.  I don’t.  Lets just agree to disagree on that shall we?  

        Come on now, you didn’t just share your opinion, you had a pop at me in the process.  Something that seemingly you couldn’t resist seeing as how I’m a moderator.

        You`ll find I can be very reasonable if you back off from your attitude with me.  And don’t say you don’t have one because you wouldn’t be dragging up the past and trying to school me in the art of being a moderator if you didn’t.

      • Philip Samuelson

         Of course the last three paragraphs are damning… as soon as I saw the title, my first thought was along the lines of “Oh shit, this is really bad.” Why wouldn’t this article be damning?

        And for someone earlier — As a script analyst who has partaken in quite a few court cases, reading and analyzing binding depositions and releases, I can assure you that if this has anything to do with a lawyer, that lawyer should lose his license. No offense to Montoya — His law writing is beyond subpar lol. This is so far from a legal release it’s laughable that anyone brought it up.

        -Blacker.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Steve-Ford/100001922734704 Steve Ford

        I’m waiting for the article on the failed iracing season schedule. hahaha. That thread has reached 20 pages.  

      • http://twitter.com/spamsac spamsac

        It could be argued that an attempt to contact/speak to Automaniax as well as SMS would be important in providing a fair and balanced account. This is Rob’s site and he can say what he wants; that doesn’t mean it is impartial/balanced.

        This whole thing sounds rather bizarre and odd to me. Now people at SMS have made comments whilst it appears that there has been no word from Automaniax on the issue (but then not acting as a “journalist” on this topic, I haven’t looked or checked). However, if I were wanting to comment on an impartial level, whilst I can only report what has been said/is out there to report, in investigating further I have a choice of who I try and speak to and what information I try to gather.

        It’s no surprise given Rob’s association with SMS that there might be a certain… let’s say “slant” on the story, and I’m not really commenting on that or criticising or saying much at all really. But also let’s not pretend this is a fair an equal reporting of the story as, quite frankly, it isn’t and isn’t by a long way.

        Controversy and dispute between two parties: impartial reporting would be attempt to get comment from both, present both sides, and let readers make their own mind up. This isn’t that. That’s Rob’s prerogative and right, but why pretend it is something it isn’t?

    • Nathan Robinson

      How the hell is it biased? I begin to wonder if some of you have been breathing too many exhaust fumes. So because its copyright infringement and it involves sms than its clearly biased to report on it? Yet if montoya came on here with an article about automaniax using the enduracers porsche in their game without their consent the whole community would be calling for for their heads. True colors lol……some of you are so dramatic.

      • http://twitter.com/ipitydafool Andrew Male

        If you can’t see this is biased then you are suffering from acute myopia.  I’m a huge fan of SMS by the way and a paid up member of pCARS.  It’s just the tone of this article reads like a press release by their laywer.

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

         Have you read how a lawyer writes ?  It’s not like this article I can assure you.

    • noro ardanto

      “Even if the claims are true, this is an astonishingly biased article.” ???? *scratches my head*

  • http://twitter.com/eralerf Stefan T.

    I heard some worrying stuff about financial inconsistencies a while a go. It sounded really unprofessional at best. At least it sounded like they had a license to use the pCARS engine.

    But obviously this wasn’t the case. So in the end this project seemed just to be a money maker for some individuals involved.

  • http://twitter.com/Dillyracer Dylan H.

    Oh no, Montoya posted his opinion about something on his own blog.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Markus-Ott/100000878526131 Markus Ott

    Is this a project of a team/person with a Porsche license, or is this a backupped project from Porsche?

  • http://www.facebook.com/the.bastard.poet Alejandro Ramirez

    As a simracing enthusiast that supported both products and was subscribed to both, I can’t help but feeling disappointed.

    Automaniax looked promising since the very begining, specially with that ominous Porsche Motorsport license that apparently is very serious (given that aX is actually in the stickers on the official Porsche Junior entries in the Carrera Cup). They sure know how to build a hype, but now they don’t know how to give answers. The accusations coming from SMS/WMD are pretty serious, but appear to be right. The undeniable fact here is that the aX video was made with the engine and with assets that are currently in pre-Alpha stage by another company. To make matters worse, the aX trailer also has footage from a certain “Darren White”, also appearing to be something done without proper permission.

    I posted my enquire in the aX Facebook profile. As I told them, this will become a tremendous shitstorm that will only damage them if they don’t take control of the situation and give the proper explanations. Most likely we won’t know about this topic in a close future, given that it’s gone legal. In the SMS/WMD Vs. AutomaniaX trial, the only ones that are greater loss are the simracing enthusiasts. Oh, and from what looks like, AutomaniaX.

  • Mark

    NFS Shift: Porsche Unleashed

    /trollface

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=724332455 Kyle Williams

    Ive just recieved images of the Automaniax simulator at the Porsche Hospitality in Hockenheim and it is not the SMS made product they are using it is a rFactor based product.

    • Anonymous

      That’s even better if it is using ISI’s latest engine, do you know if it is? or is it the original engine? Saying that, Reiza got the old engine feeling pretty badass A Porsche simulator using the latest gmotor physics engine is better and more appealing to me than if it was the Madness engine all day long.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=724332455 Kyle Williams

        the model is GSMF’s without a doubt, and its a slightly modified rf1 GUI

      • Anonymous

        Thanks for that. Sounds a bit disappointing then really and much like what SimRaceWay have done. The GSMF stuff is great but i can use them in rF1. Would of been really appealing had it been using the latest gmotor for me but the old one, i don’t know, lost interest now. Will be interesting to see where this goes though.

      • http://twitter.com/StarFoXySxv550 StarFoXySxv550

        This makes sense. I remember GSMF talking about about some work, but they were being highlt secretive, and wouldn’t say which platform the work was for.

        Edit: Actually no, it was enduracers!!! https://www.virtualr.net/enduracers-porsche-gt3-cup-series-%e2%80%93-lots-of-new-previews

        Are we certain it is GSMF, and not Enduracers?

        Either way, I’m all for Mod teams “going commercial”, but I hope it/this doesn’t affect too much on any plans they may have for rFactor2. Then again rF2 is still in infancy and there’s plenty of time.

  • Marcus Caton

    LOL This is what happens when you cross VirtualIR er i mean SMS

    To say they’re using the Porsche name to weasly money from gullible people is to explain the existence of Project CARS.
    People who like (Insert Project cars’ list of cars here) and just want to drive their favorite cars of their favorite makes buy it and enjoy it as much as they can within the game.

    The issue of permissions is relative as Automaniax Porsche Online is not a released product, so no money is changing hands to be afoul of certain laws. If SMS wants to make the claim that by using their engine to show off a car somehow puts money into their pockets by using something that doesn’t belong to them well….

    lastly i have to ask, if SMS freely gave information (ie their engine) to other people while in talks about w/e without any contracts in place or limitations on what they can do with it.
     Then did they not just “Give” something to someone?
    This is a bit odd, this post makes it look like a friend got betrayed and is using facebook (VirtualIR) to shame them.

    No contracts means no Obligation, seems legit to me.

    • Alejandro Gorgal

      You really need to study some basic law man, if I give you my software for you to test (and of course there’s always at the very least an NDA in place when you do that) and you just go ahead and put it on the market of course that is illegal.
      And no, the fact that technically they are not gaining a profit from it just yet does not make it right, it’s basic copyright law, if I take an scene from a movie and put it on youtube what do you think it’s going to happen? It’ll get blocked.
      Same thing with software, to put it in perspective it’s like when people try to make a mod based on an existing franchise, even though they are not profiting from it and the mod is not even out the law allows the owner of the content to put out what is known as a “cease and desist” order to prevent further developments.

      Again, this is all basic law and Im really surprised to see how many people soom to be completely oblivious about it.

      • Delice Gracer

        It could be theorized that SMS is using a similar strategy when you think of it, they are showing/promoting/using brands and their
        trademarks, AUDI, Norschleife, oschersleben and maybe more…without
        having arranged the license yet for pCars.

        Having said that, lets hope some more information is released so we know all sides of the story, or that this is the last of it, and they decide to keep it inbetween their office walls….

      • Alejandro Gorgal

        No they are not, the names for any of those tracks and cars that have not been licensed yet are not being used in the game, they are using fake names along with changes to both the car shape and track look so that they are not exactly the same.

        It’s really not the same as using someone else’s technology without permission.
        I know it looks like Im going on a crusade right now but Im seriously surprised by the general lack of really basic knowledge on copyright. Im starting to understand why these issues are so prominent.

        I’ll make it simple:
        Legal: I add a fake brand to my game that sort of reminds you to a real one, like the fake CocaCola adds in Monza on RFactor 2.

        Illegal: Taking someone else’s software and selling it as your own.

        Seriously dudes, it’s not that hard.

      • Delice Gracer

        The “Belgian forest circuit” really does look like Spa, Eifelwald really does look like Nurburgring, Sakito is actually Suzuka. The Asano’s are clearly Audi’s without a. Tthey just have different names

        These tracks and cars have great value to their owners, in the case for example of audi some parts of their designs are patented, copyrighted and trademarked…..So yes it is the same…..it looks to me they are being used to promote the game until license is obtained/finalized.

        So from that point of view, you could say that  Automaniax is using the stuff they have to promote the game until they obtain the license. 

        Not saying its the way to go, but its a little hypocritical to point at people doing the same as yourself….

      • Alejandro Gorgal

        Please dont take this as a personal attack, it is not meant to be that way, but Im annoyed by this general sense of “the law can be whatever I rationalize it can be”.
        I already explained why what SMS is doing is legal and why this is not, if I were wrong then why isn’t CocaCola suing ISI? Why isn’t Lotus/Caterham suing the LFS folks for putting a car in their game that sort of looks like a 7? Because that’s not how the law works.

        Again, fact, not an opinion.

        And just so my position is clear here, Im not defending SMS or trying to make AutomaniaX look bad just for the sake of it; whatever their problem is it will be solved in a court of law, not by a group of bystanders in a gaming blog, but let’s not mix things up by saying that stealing video content (you can find proof further below this thread) to promote your game is not wrong.

      • Delice Gracer

        I did not take it as a personal thing no worries, a healthy discussion is always welcome!

        I understand the point you are making, but do not agree with it fully. It may be how the “normal” law works, but it is not how copyright and trademark law works. You cant use things designed and owned by others without their permmission.

        I surely hope they (SMS, Ax, Porsche) get their bussines sorted and let us enjoy an hopefully great game!

    • Brees Foster

      So what has Virtualr done to you? Hater!!! You try to sound like you know what you are talking about and dont. So what has this blog done to you?

    • http://twitter.com/Dillyracer Dylan H.

       You really don’t know what you’re talking about, do you?

    • Big Ron

      You can´t use sth. and earn money with sth. you didn´t licensed. Pretty easy explanation and universal. As far as we know they used the prepared stuff from SMS for their trailer. But we don´t know what they are using now for the game itself since the trailer material seems to be from late 2011.

  • Maciej Śmierzewski

    Yes, many members don’t understand how the law works.

    But I think that it would be best for gamers and SMS to spend money not on lawyers and courts but on Project Cars race mode in carrer that will make us feel like we’re playing NFS Porsche again. Cote d’ Azure is in PCARS, now we need some great Porsche cars and everyone will be happy. Am I right?

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Markus-Ott/100000878526131 Markus Ott

      I don’t need Porsches to be happy. I don’t need non curcuits to be happy. I don’t need a career mode. I don’t need a remake of an old game to be happy.
      So for me you are completely wrong.

      • Marco Hooghuis

        Guess what, not everybody works completely the same way you do. That it doesn’t work the same way for you doesn’t really invalidate his point. Please consider that.

      • Brees Foster

        You have had a corn cob up your butt for quite awhile now, dont you think its time to let it go?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1091053086 Matjaž Murn

    I think everyone would be better off if “journalists” understood this: http://www.wimp.com/viewpoints/

  • sargentjack86

     Maybe AX tried the Madness engine but found the physics to be somewhat lacking and went back to gMotor!! lol:-D

    • Anonymous

      gMotor is probably also way cheaper. 😉
      But yeah if SMS were 100% happy with their physics they wouldn’t build a new tyre model etc..

    • Alejandro Gorgal

      Of course! That explains why their promo material uses footage from the Madness engine, you are a genius man case closed!

      • sargentjack86

        You obviously struggle with comedy. It’s really not that hard……..just laugh and take it as a joke………….keep your captain righteous low level sarcasm to yourself.

        And take that finger out.

      • Alejandro Gorgal

         It was just a joke man, take it easy, Im sorry you took it so personal.

      • sargentjack86

        No what you employed is called sarcasm. It wasn’t funny hence it was not a joke.

        Please remove the finger.

      • Alejandro Gorgal

        I love it how you keep telling me how to “remove my finger” with such high authority, from where I stand you are doing the same, you cant tell me what to do or say.
        And yet you’ve managed to completely ignore the first point of this convo which I guess makes sense because you already lost that one, so it’s better to just divert attention, next up, criticize my grammar.

  • Boss Player

    porsche management are not famous for their morality and common sense.

    they can be a bounch of ********

    not the first time I hear **** like this.

    • Anonymous

      This could be said about 80% of all company´s who made it.  Success does not come easy by just being a saint and work hard…  ( just an opinion) 

      • Anonymous

        You’re absolute right, SMS isn’t any different than others

      • Ricoo

        No, maybe SMS are in the 20 % lol

    • Delice Gracer

      Who says Automaniax is Porsche btw? I tried to find out who owns/runs/works automaniax, but as far as I can find I see no affiliation that AX is owned by Porsche….

      But for the rest not a lot of info can be find on this

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_37IN6F2QL6W3MHPS6XM7LJY5IY Derek Speare

    dayum!  Looks like I gotta make more popcorn!

    • http://twitter.com/StarFoXySxv550 StarFoXySxv550

      I’ll wait for the “PopcornBoss” to become available before I make mine. lol

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=506411491 マリオ クリストファ

    It’s easy.. They ( AutomaniaX ) used the “then” engine and graphics they shared working with SMS to promote their game in a trailer to attract customers since (lets be honest) C.A.R.S looks stunning… but in reality they are just using rFactor and are doing what simraceway is doing.. said and done! STOP THE ARGUMENT! 

    • Marco Hooghuis

      Let’s just assume for now that’s the case. Then we’d still have the problem that AX used SMS’s engine (and trailer!) without permission. That alone is inexcusable.

      • General Rush Hour

        And you read the contract? Remember that you are on a site affiliated with PCARS, your hardly going to see both sides of the coin here. That´s guaranteed. 

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        He doesn’t need to read any contract.  SMS have already categorically stated it to be the case that AX had no permission to use their stuff.

      • General Rush Hour

        As i said, you will only hear ONE story. Whatever it might be.

      • Marco Hooghuis

        I don’t think SMS are going to make false accusations at this level, don’t you think?

      • General Rush Hour

        What do you think?

        “So BMW, what do you think of the new Audi A5?”

  • Berney Villers Jr

    Airing dirty legal laundry between two companies as news is in bad taste.I’m surprised to see gossip rather than actual news posted at a site of this caliber.

    -1 for the gossip column

    • Philip Samuelson

       Whilst I can see your point with a certain phrase in the title(“Legal Trouble”), I fail to see it in the body of the release. If Montoya didn’t work for/with SMS, or whatever binds he has to pCars, this would simply be a release of findings and a statement from Mr. Bell.

      The only things I would have written differently in this article is simple — I would have been a bit more neutral about it than Montoya was in very simple words — The use of “clearly” to depict the transgressions in the trailer. Sure, it is clear, but I would have let the community say it. I also wouldn’t have said anything about the community being “cautious” regarding a product. Those are just two things I don’t think should be stated as is, but when you get right down to it, I see no reason why those things would relate to gossip at all, or have anything to do with Montoya’s connection to SMS/WMD/pCars.

      But then again, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt… Except for really good looking women. I try to give them the benefit… Sadly only my lovely fiancee has taken my offer :).

      -Blacker.

    • Anonymous

       well no different to any other media.

  • Luke Russell

    They’re using gmotor engine, seriously, gmotor engine…

    • sargentjack86

      GAME STOCK CAR.

      Best physics currently available and only netKar Pro has better FFB.

      Seriously gMotor has been THE motor for some time. Nothing wrong with it.

      • Luke Russell

        It’s seven years old.

      • Mark

        dated is not bad.

      • Niels Heusinkveld

        Its not its age, its what you do with it 😉

      • Anonymous

        gMotor2 is like wine, the older the better. 😉

        First of all I must apologise for offtopic.
        Seriously, I checked every sim out there, and I mean EVERY SIM, and after all these years of roaming I would always back to rfactor and its best mods with same damned sentence after few laps: “God, this is sooo smoooth, I LOVE IT!”. Simply it has the best sense of grip, and smoothest feel of driving in any sim, and that two thing gets me the most. You can tell me “the physics is not good” or “graphics sucks” and I don’t care if the physics is not that good as in iRacing because I’m enjoying every single moment in rfactor, and that is the meaning of racing, real or virtual!

      • Anonymous

         gMotor2 is like wine, the older the better. 😉

        First of all I must apologise ofr offtopic.
        Seriously, I checked every sim out there, and I mean EVERY SIM, and after all these years of roaming I would always back to rfactor and its best mods with same damned sentence after few laps: “God, this is sooo smoooth, I LOVE IT!”. Simply it has the best sense of grip, and smoothest feel of driving in any sim, and that two thing gets me the most. You can tell me “the physics is not good” or “graphics sucks” and I don’t care if the physics is not that good as in iRacing because I’m enjoying every single moment in rfactor, and that is the meaning of racing, real or virtual!

      • sargentjack86

        So are you.

      • hoodge1

         ian bell said the madness engine powering Pcars has been in development since 6 years ago. Gmotor old.. Nope. It’s a proven engine. Why do you think Reiza, and others are licensing it. It’s an engine built for sims. We know ISI are sim guru’s in other fields as well. Aviation for one. No don’t go talking about a seven year old engine that continues to impress.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/TRGHYRCAMQ3XV4UUFU6DVOYC3Q Gerald

    Wow! Somebody stirred up a hornets nest!

    I think I am just going to go play rfactor.

  • noro ardanto

    I tried to get answer from Automaniax and this is their respond:
    Hello,thanks for your mail. You can be sure, that we release an official statement to this story till tuesday.Thanks a lot aX – Team

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000532447215 Lutz Enger

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