Toni Vilander On Endurance Series Mod Experience

A few days ago, a video of Ferrari GT racer Toni Vilander giving Endurance Series for rFactor a try surfaced on Youtube, courtesy of Foracer.

A lot of you wondered what the accomplished pro thought of the community mod and its physics so Toni was nice enough to share a bit of feedback with all of us:

The feeling of the car is realistic and it is easy to reach the sense of driving. Nature of the engine is very close to real. There are no major differences in the engine and drivetrain behavior, when compaired to the real car. Deceleration under braking is lifelike, but in some corners the tail of the car feels too loose at the end of braking and beginning of turn in. When losing control in a slide, the real car is still recoverable with countersteering at the point when all control is lost in the simulation. The handling of the car in apex driving and when exiting turns feels natural.

The problem about losing control of the car in the end of braking is repairable with the right setup changes. For example changing the ride height setups gives a very good response, like it does in real life. I have not made a big effort to find an optimal setup for the mod, but the changes I have made so far have always responded logically. Concerning tires, most of the time I have driven with super soft tires and they seem to behave very close to real. In the first few laps the grip is very good and then it gradually decreases.

Vilander is one of the most accomplished drivers in sports car racing, having clinched two FIA GT championships and a GTE class win at this year’s Le Mans 24 Hours.

While you probably don’t have a rig as cool as the Foracer, you can still drive the same mod as Endurance Series is available for download here. And just in case you haven’t seen the video yet you can check it out below.

Via Enduracers Facebook

GTOmegaRacing.com

  • gt3rsr

    “…the tail of the car feels too loose…” Oh, really? What a surprise!

  • http://twitter.com/clivelomax Clive Lomax

    I have driven this mod a lot and have experienced what others have found with the GT2 cars, the lack of rear end traction while braking for corners. However I only experienced it with the GT2 cars and none of the others, and only when Auto Clutch and Auto blip were enabled.
    When I learned how to heel-toe and didn’t use any driving aids it was much better. In my opinion its like the auto blip is not blipping the throttle hard enough and when you down change rapidly it can cause the rears to lock slightly and break traction… Just my opinion.

    • Kendra Jacobs

      Weird, maybe something is messed up with the auto blip settings? I wonder how they are managed, by rfactor core engine itself, or are there actual physics lines that modders can edit that effect auto-blipping and auto-lifting??…..

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

      Yep, Ive been saying this for sooo long with this mod and now maybe after professional race driver has said the same thing, they will hopefully sort it out.
      Because otherwise this has the potential to be up there with DRM mod.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laurent.cortier Laurent Cortier

    Very nice rig ! It’s a SimForceGT, like Frex, CXC, and most of all, SimXperience.
    Love all the custom hardware, wonder what the wheel/pedals are ?

  • GamerMuscle

    “When losing control in a slide, the real car is still recoverable with countersteering at the point when all control is lost in the simulation.”

    This is the fundamental issue with most simulators at this point in time NKP is by far the closest to getting it right , followed by Game stock car.

    There seems to be a general perception though amongst many sim racers that cars are meant to get totally erratic and uncontrollable with moderate angles of slip or when spinning up the rear wheels for a split second.

    I don’t think allot of people realise how easy it is to drive most cars even race cars to a basic level and even get some angle in them.

    The difficulty comes from proficiently controlling that slip and having it happen when you want or need it for a given corner depending on your tire situation and what you are doing and need to achieve at that given point in time.

    For a moderately skilled driver , Cars should drive almost like an incredibly tight and gripping hover craft where the driver can chose the exact angle relative to the direction of travel at almost any point in time , Through the use of steering input throtel and brakes , or chose not to take any angle at all !

    Its the combination of all these almost contradictory motions coming together to produce an intentional smooth controlled movement that makes racing so addictive.

    Clearly its not an easy problem to solve in code but you can see that developers are getting closer and closer to replicating this core aspect of driving.

    • Kendra Jacobs

      “This is the fundamental issue with most simulators at this point in time NKP is by far the closest to getting it right”

      At the same time though, that brought its own share of physics flaws, like cars being too easy, too often, in too many situations to save. Cars being able to drift too much, doing full on 200kph drifts around entire corners with the Osella, and so on.

      So its still a compromise with NKP, its just that they went the other direction with it.

      This is where I really feel AC will shine from some videos I have seen, having hard or almost impossible snap slides, the nice controlled oversteer correction slides, and the full on drifting style slides, all happen more or less when they are supposed to, rather than the sim having to compromise its physics for each one.

      • Eric Zehnder

        It all comes down to two things: tire model and FFB. NKP has an amazing feeling FFB that “just works” and doesn’t seem to ever go too far in any direction. It’s just believable, I guess is how I’d describe it.

        I don’t know what type of tire model they use with NKP, FVA, or Assetto Corsa but they seem to be on to something. I’ve heard that they’ve always let the FFB flow simply from the steering rack via the tires so if the FFB feels natural with little fidgeting than they obviously have something right in the tire model.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Not only is the tyre model of AC completely different than Netkar Pro, but the fundamental core physics engine is different, or i think the exact words of Kunos were, re-written from the ground up.
        I read in an interview a while back about some physics issues Kunos wasnt happy with in Netkar Pro. He was explaining how it was a compromise to fudge certain areas to make other areas behave better, but then that fudging would effect other areas in negative ways, and how its all about manipulating different areas of the physics to get more desireable results and stuff like that. He wasnt happy with alot of NKP physics/handling stuff. He also went on about some physics stuff that got worse the heavier the car being simulated was.
        He said it couldnt be truely fixed with NKP regardless of what he did, but could only fix it with a brand new physics engine, hence AC :).
        So excited for AC and RF2 official releases!!!

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Why would 2 people vote “down thumbs” for an an article from Stefano explaining how Assetto Corsa will be just as sim focused as ever? What in the world is so wrong about that, that people would down vote that?

        Some strange, ignorant, biased haters around here, let me tell ya.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ed-Luna/1160971221 Ed Luna

      Very well put! I agree Gamer Muscle.

  • Niels Heusinkveld

    He mentions exactly the reason why I started doing physics many years ago. You don’t have to be a real driver (like so many simracers seem to think) to realize that cars are drivable usually a fair bit beyond the limit. Yet most sims very stubbornly have the ‘point of no return spin o matic’ feel to them, and often counter steering makes it worse.

    • GamerMuscle

      Exactly

      Maybe as more high profile respected people such as yourself and real world racers keep letting people know , more sim racers will start to understand that a car on the limit does not drive like a camel whilst balancing on a ladder.

      Its strange to me that some developers themselves might not “get it” especially as you built GSC and many mod cars with an exiting engine.

    • Anonymous

      yes unfortunately people just dont believe it.
      A quick glance at the ISI forums shows that people believe driving is inherently difficult, and only ‘driving heroes’ can control the cars on the edge.

      They think that because rfactor makes it difficult to control the car on the edge/impossible, they believe the same is true in real life.

      No amount of logic, video evidence, experience, makes them believe otherwise.

      This is what Ben Collins, whos helping out on PCars said about sims in general:

      Handling – I
      am struggling with the lack of forgiveness in the slip angles of the tyre
      model. On entry to corners the understeer is quite severe, followed often by
      equally severe oversteer. The longitudinal slip angles for braking have more
      forgiveness and I wondered if there was a way to engineer in some more
      horizontal slip to allow you to apply the throttle and feel the rear tyres
      break traction more gradually. If we could perfect the ability of the car to
      hold a drift and to modulate the throttle accordingly it would be fantastic.
      This is generally the aspect of driving sims that I find the most challenging
      and it’s difficult to explain in print what I mean.

      Theres a lot more to this post and he goes into detail about why its easier in real life and what specifically is happening with slip angles/friction circles.

      BUt people just dont get it.

      Netkar Pro and Kunos are the only people that do seem to get it, so far. I drove the latest version of PCars yesterday and its a bit of a mess, but theres POTENTIAL. There truely is, its got something. Its got some feed that RF2 simply hasn’t in any way.

      RF2 is a total failure in every possible way.

      • traind

        Nice post (although I have not tried RF2 and am a bit surprised to hear it is so bad for you). I have always thought of GTR2 and GTR evolution as pretty recoverable as well… particularly compared to iRacing

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Dont be suprised.

        There are people out there that think Forza 4 and Granturismo 5 are the most realistic things around.

        There are people out there that think nothing in the entire sim racing world comes close to iRacing.

        There are people out there that think Need for Speed Shift is considered a sim.

        There is nothing you can do but laugh at people that come up with such massively un-accurate and conceded conclusions.

        Very arrogant actually, I bet most of these people are not engineers, have no engineering data on the correlation from the sim to real life, are not pro drivers, dont have tons of telemetry data analysing all the details, and just in general have no idea what physics mean.

        Or they are just haters. Which I am guessing Pastor is, since he does have good taste in physics by stating NKP and GSC are good.

      • C4

        Well Forza and GT provide a good package which will keep you busy for month. I think SimBin (those who don’t mind a bit “gamey” flair in terms of content) and others can learn a few things from them, especially since they now focus on hotlapping competition which kinda is like racing offline. In terms of vehicle dynamics they don’t do much we haven’t seen on consoles years ago with Enthusia (PS2) but obviously are more enjoyable for the masses. Shift isn’t made as sim and has lots of issues but at least it don’t have problems with large slip angles and raw eggs feel on throttle. If we just could combine the best of all racing games / sims :)

        IMHO people have all reasons to like the console games and iRacing but of course that shouldn’t influence their judgement with regards to physics and so on. Currently most people who get into rFactor 2 are just focussing on physics and differences to other sims. I really think we haven’t seen the full potential of rF2. Make it look a bit more polished, add and tweak that awesome LiveTrack feature, work on offline content, and online modes, mod integration and refine physics here and there – that all sounds possible in 1 year or so and they have all the time in the world, even when some people who bought it in it’s early stage aren’t perfectly happy (or even disappointed) with its current state.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Forza and Granturismo, as an entire package are awesome :).

        I bet PCars will be a great package aswell, maybe not to the extent of all the crazy modes, options, careers, and things you can do with Forza and GT, as PCars is more sim focused, but I bet once released, it will be a very nice complete package, with great physics aswell.

        I agree too that RF2 hasnt shown its true potential, that would be like saying RFactor 1 hit its potential long before it came out, and therefore before a single person ever played it (other than official internal testers), which of course would be a pretty ridiculous assumption to make., and everyone knows is completely false.

        If there are any internal RFactor 1 (not 2) testers around here from back in the day, I am sure they can tell us all, just how insanely much the game improved from when it was a private, non-released internal develpment build (like rfactor 2 is now, other than the fact it is public), to when it finally officially got released, let alone all the improvements up until 3 or 4 years later, let alone all the way up until today :)

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        “There is nothing you can do but laugh at people that come up with such massively un-accurate and conceded conclusions.”

        Yes or we can have facts and figures to nicely tell them another point of view.

        Or we can accept they have a differing opinion and not worry about it as it doesn’t affect us.

        Can I laugh at ‘un-accurate’ and “loosing it” or would that be arrogant ? :) We’re not all right in everything, its just a question of tolerance.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Yes, you are right. Good point F1Racer.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        LOLOLOLOL

      • Anonymous

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=his6nXTkBYA

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=–yX8vrlLmI

        Been there. Done that. Proved it.
        0Wned.

        Yes RF2 is a total failure, never mind the poor graphics, sounds, Menu design, Interface, Multiplayer interface, never mind all those core fundamentals:

        - physics are almost exactly the same as RF1: Awful low speed grip, Zero slip angle, once you slide, thats it, it goes into a weird locked slide.
        - Zero stability at rear, no feeling of grip or weight.
        - FFB feels like RF1 with realfeel plugin
        - Oh, and All the stuff that Ben Collins (Top gear Stig) mentions.

        And this is why I say – despite all the evidence, despite Racing Professionals saying the same thing about all these simgames, You still refuse to believe.

        Just because you might not have the skills to control a car up to, and over the grip limit, it does not mean others don’t – and when you have Professionals themselves saying ‘its not right’, you still don’t believe it!

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Ive seen your posts littered all over the RFactor 2 forums, you are Hiohaa I believe (sorry if I got this wrong). Yes there is no point in arguing with you, you are probably the biggest RF hater in history.

        Just the fact you say RF2 physics are almost exactly the same as RF1 proves how unbelievably biased you are against it,

        I can control a car around the limit, I believe, pretty decently from my experience, and most likely better than you. You dont seem even close to the limits of grip in those videos, other than power exit oversteer.

        You seem to be way overslowing down for the entry, having wayyy too much available grip which allows you to use much more steering, which gives the impression of having much more grip due to being so under the grip limits, you are even getting hard back on the throttle way before the apex due to all the extra grip you have available because you have over slowed and therefore no where near the limits of grip. Your mid corner speed is also no where near the limits, again, this is why you have so much “play” and freedom with your wheel movements, because you arent near the grip limit.

        Your car control skills with power exit oversteer are good, for sure, that doesnt mean much though in judging a sims physics, or in your own talents as a racing driver.

        You see people 5 even 10 seconds off the pace getting the back end out on exit oversteer, it means nothing in proving how close to the limits you are, or how fast you are as a racing driver.

      • Anonymous

        LOL.
        It is clear from the videos that A. I was driving in wet conditions, for starters.
        B. I am having to control that oversteer on exit. If the car is oversteering………then by definition it is over the limit. Yet I am not spinning out………………which therefore means I’m controlling it.

        You are absolutely mental – can you not SEE That when I’m hard on the throttle the CAR IS SIDEWAYS.

        ‘Overslowing down for the entry’
        Which is why I’m fighting understeer on turn in? Which is why a few times I have to cut some of the chicane?

        Literally nothing you just said correlates to anything that happens in the video.

        Its utterly bizarre, on every level. Lets see a video of you driving then?

        By the way I dont find simracing hard in the slightest, even though Rfactor/Rfactor 2 is absolutely Nothing like driving in real life – I compete in FSR World trophy and have poles and podiums.

        You just have to face the reality. And As I say, you have PRO RACE DRIVERS saying the same thing – the guy in this article, Ben Collins (stig off Top Gear/Stunt driver/Pro Race driver) ALL SAYING That theres not enough grip in these sims – and you still refuse to believe.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        You fight mid corner understeer due to having available play in the wheel due to available grip, then that leads you to yank the steering wheel, then that quickly uses up all previously available front end grip and is what leads to many (but not all) understeer moments in your video. That understeer you have looks very similiar to RF2, and some other sims.

        You also, at times, get that slow speed, icy feeling, helplessly pathetic understeer that we all hate and get sometimes. Its that type where you just plow straight on and are waiting and waiting and waiting to re-grip, then just as you feel the front re-grip, you get on the throttle a bit more to exit, but that plants the rear down and puts you back in a car running wide on exit sort of behavior. We get this in NKP and RF2 as well.

        The way you are doing lots of constant minor corrections is how the driving is in NKP, GSC and RF2 as well, but not yet (yet being the key word) in PCars.

        Thats 3 physics points in your video that are very similiar to other sims like RF2. Do I have to keep on going, analysing all the hundreds of different physics handling characteristics going on in your video that are very well done in NKP, RF2 and a few other sims? Or are you going to continue ignoring all the very realistic handling and physics traits, and just base your entire opinion on the entire complexities of handling just because one area where it still needs some work (power oversteer).

        You are breathing the throttlle and carefully modulating it from apex to exit, and through out long corners wayyyyyyy more than ppl tend to in sims, this also keeps you in a controlled, semi-comfortable, no slip angle, sort of state, much more often than ppl do in sims. (nothing wrong with that, for someone who is not an actual pro, im just stating facts, you are a good driver in my opinion).

        Im not mental, I can see the car sideways due to power exit oversteer, its very awesome to watch, and you have very good feel and skills in that department. That means you went over the limit for that split second from over throttling, its completely different than going over the limit due to sheer exit speed and and leaning on the tyres laterally. If you were already near the limits of grip before you gave it so much throttle, then you wouldnt have as much “leeway” to floor the throttle and get into as hairy moments, because the tyres would already be in such a close to the limit and loaded state, before you even ever got on the throttle, which would make the car much more snappy.

        Also, those cars are setup for lots of control, powersliding, and safety, they are on a much less than optimal and on the edge setup, than they would be in a race series’s competition condition.

        Really the only thing I see here that is off to the point where it really stands out, is how much you can really abuse the car, in terms of power exit oversteer cases, compared to RF2, RF2 needs to work on that for sure, other than that….these videos prove just how good NKP, RF2, etc actually are.

      • Anonymous

        bla bla bla.

        there are numerous points in the videos where you can clearly see im balancing the car, Mid corner, using a combination of throttle and steering, to fight any oversteer, dancing with the car on a slippy track. There are clear examples of me leaning on the tyres laterally – 0.20s for instance.

        you are totally blinded by simracing and how simcars behave compared to reality. Get a grip. Listen to what Ben Collins, Toni Valender and other professionals say. Listen carefully to what they are saying. Read it properly, understand it. Take in the information properly. I dont have to say anything – they’ve said it all. I’ve just posted my videos to prove that I know exactly what they are talking about.

        I am totally hammering the car, and yet remain completely in control of the car. You cannot do this in RF2, Or RF. You CAN Do this in NKP.

        as i say – feel free to post any videos of you driving. you still haven’t – and i bet you wont.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        I tried to include valid points and analysations, rather than replying with “bla bla bla” “i bet you wont post videos” “owned” etc.. but whatever.

        I have mentioned numerous times in this forum that I have done more than one multiple day open wheel school. I dont have videos, you do, ok thats good, doesnt change the fact that I have done it and to a very decent level, just makes it harder for you to believe, which is understandable and fine with me.

        I never disagreed with what Toni, said, I disagreed with what you said. You said something totally different than him.

        He pretty much said somethin much more in line with that I said, in that other than certain specific oversteer issues, the rest of the physics seem good

      • http://twitter.com/IRAGETooMuch Alessio ‘RaGe’

        As much as I do like ISI and rFactor, rF2 is definitely a major dissapointment. Of course, still in very early beta, but I rarely play for more than 5 minutes on it once every two months. UI is poor, mod selection and tracks (as of now, but this is not major considering it is till VERY early in beta) are small, and the physics seemed to have diminished. Not to mention, the FFB feels like it will destroy my wheel..

      • Eric Zehnder

        Not to start a fight, but rF2 isn’t in very early Beta. The Beta period of any game shouldn’t usually last very long and this has already been going on for almost a year. Beta is when you are feature complete and polishing and doing bug fixing.

        Technically they’re in Alpha if they’re not done adding core features to the game which would suggest it won’t be released for quite some time.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Just as Eric said. Beta is pretty much just touch ups and quick bug fixes, and some general optimization improvements here and there, over a 6ish month period before official release.
        The battlefield 3 public beta, was the perfect example of your typical beta, and that was on a COMPLETELY different planet than RF2 in terms of its development life stage.

      • Noel Hibbard

        It isn’t realistic to have a car that snaps beyond control with no chance of recovering but at the same time it isn’t realistic to have a car that you can drive anyway you want without sliding at all (on rails). What Niels has done is make cars that will slide but in a controlled manner. This is how it should be. This is what one should consider realistic. But, it is still hard to drive Niels’ cars. Let me rephrase that, hard to drive fast. Just because you can slide without spinning doesn’t mean it it the fastest way around the track. There is little challenge in driving a car that is on rails. So I wouldn’t say, easy = real / hard = fake.

      • C4

        I wouldn’t use saying “easy” or “hard” at all :) Otherwise I agree. That level of control of reality is necessary in a sim.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ed-Luna/1160971221 Ed Luna

        “RF2 is a total failure in every possible way.”
        Oh. That makes me sad. Ah man, how I want all sims to succeed or at the very least contribute in some way or another to our sim world and sport. So to fail in EVERY possible way is a bummer indeed. :-(

      • Kendra Jacobs

        haha

      • http://www.facebook.com/notaros Ivan Schiöübel Notaroš

        oh god what did this post turn into.. The game itself has little to do with what you actually see.. In simulations “the game” is much more what’s underneath. And what’s over are mods with tire models, engine parameters, graphics..

        And DON’T FORGET that the rf’s trump card is it’s OPEN MODDABILITY, and that is what it kept it’s servers full from 2005. and that is what sets it completely apart from other sims.

        On the other hand, may I ask you why do biggest names in motorsport like RedBull, Ferrari etc. use a professional version of rf “Rfactor PRO”, for their simulators? Well because they are flexible, stable, reliable, aaaand if you have real data (which teams do) it makes it probably the most realistic sim. What I want to say is that the “engine” itself can’t be a failure.

        I just find a lot of people also biased towards graphics. in the era that we live, visual sense is 90% of all our sensual experience and it is normal that we overrate games according to what they look like, and from that experience practically forget about other stuff. They say Pcars is amazing and has great potential, cause what they see is so believable and the atmosphere is great. It has dx11, amazing shading, top notch effects like motion blur and dof, color balancing, tone mapping.. AND SUDDENLY it’s a game with biggest potential!!! and not rf2 xD And yes, from this point of view, rF2 IS disappointing but that is ONLY graphics.

        I am not saying that pcars don’t have potential at improving physics, or that rf2 has potential at upgrading graphics, they all do, but saying a game is a total failure is just wrong. In my opinion, I am looking forward to see more of AC, primarily cause of the modabilty =)

        I have always found that, in the case of physics, it is kind of pointless to search for true realism these days. (Except if you are building professional simulators) Each of the best sims of today have reasonably good physics to be “very close to real”. They all handle slightly different, and as we, virtual drivers, have no idea what a real race car would actually, IN LITTLE LITTLE DETAILS feel like, do we really need to? Each sim is a matter of preference

      • http://twitter.com/_Jagdstaffel11_ ___ ɥqp ___

        “RF2 is a total failure in every possible way. ”

        Yeah, righto Mr Dingle.

      • C4

        rF2 can be improved, if as much as rF1 since its (beta) release then we will have a good time with it :) . Maybe when the wet implementation and new engine (the cars’ engine not the “game engine” :) ) is complete they look over the existing cars again.

        About the quote, well, he talks about slip angle but there are tons of other things which influence over- and understeer. Just playing with aerodynamic drag values can totally transform a car from oversteery to understeery, even using not too unreasonable values (but if you’re into modding it can be a good idea to test how it responds to higher values then reasonable ones sometimes IMHO)

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Pablo-Coronel/583236136 Pablo Coronel

      Absolutely right!! when the pc car sim world start to heard this words?

    • http://www.facebook.com/javier.bernedolopez Javier Bernedo López

      That´s why the Mini in GSC is such an amazing car. It feels very natural for anyone that has driving in real life.

    • Marco Conti

      Very true. My pet peeve is “vintage” cars and especially vintage open wheel cars from the 70′s and 80′s. In some mods these cars are made to drive as if they had both a broken axle and someone stole the dampers. Even HistoryX, which is one of my favorite vintage mods, drives as if I had 2 front flat tires and my rears were made of cheese.

      • http://www.facebook.com/kris.baxter2 Kris Baxter

        I find its worse with the newer cars though, in all Gmotor games I have found that the various classic mods, GTL and TCM was actually more progressive on the limit, the slide would almost happen in slow motion and sometimes allow for recovery, but in more modern GT or TC games or mods it is a snap over steer, if the back goes, its too late.

    • http://twitter.com/_Jagdstaffel11_ ___ ɥqp ___

      Good post…..

    • http://twitter.com/Touring_Pro TouringProSeries.com

      Oh look Niels, your constructive post on ‘on the limit physics’ turned into an rF2 vs pCARS debate. What a surprise!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Markus-Ott/100000878526131 Markus Ott

    You guys must realise that hardcore sim racers don’t aim for realism. They aim for hard to drive games and only if it spins and slides all the time it is a good sim, because they believe their hard trained skills to control this makes them at least as good as Michael Schumacher in real life. And they have a huge advantage over newcomers to sim racing.
    That’s why games like pCARS get so much hate and the outrage when AC also made a step back to more controlable cars was so big.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=562060798 Timpie Claessens

      You’re posts are always funny (and almost copies of eachother), it’s the same verbal diarrhea every time whining about simracers. Give it a rest dude

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Markus-Ott/100000878526131 Markus Ott

        Truth never gets old for me. I will repeat it every time it fits the topic. And I don’t talk about all sim racers, I talk about the hardcore sim racers, those guys who think they are better human beings because they have 500+ Euros of sim racing equipment and call everyone else unworthy.

      • Anonymous

        I’ve never seen *anyone* call somebody else unworthy because they don’t have 500+e worth of equipment nor have I seen anyone thinking they are as good as Schumi just because they can drive punishing sim cars. So that’s either your imagination, or you play with wrong people lol.

        I’m not convinced pCars approach is that good. OK some cars in rF might be more slippery than that they should, making everything too easy is not a solution either though.
        The truth is always somewhere middle (in life, not just simracing….), calling your opinions the ultimate truth doesn’t help much

      • Eric Zehnder

        We’ll have to wait until even one of the cars in pCARS is considered anywhere close to finished.

        I will say this, though, as a major fan of both pCARS and NKP – when the Seta tire model came out and was applied to cars it shouldn’t be (thereby making them harder to handle) people were very happy about it.

        I’ve been subject to the same emotions where a car that feels easy to drive fast isn’t fun. A car that takes some [virtual] skill to keep going fast is fun but isn’t necessarily realistic. Hence the grey area that all sims operate in and some do it better than others.

        I think the key is to enjoy the final product for whatever it is and let the next game down the line try for something else, if they want.

      • traind

        I agree that pcars vehicles need a lot of tuning before they are close to done.

        I will say that driving at the limit lap after lap isn’t easy in real life… it just isn’t like driving on ice :) Being at the limit is, after all, at the limit! The best drivers can stay at the limit for more of each lap than average ones do.., and it takes skill to do it.

        I have ridden shotgun at Lime Rock with Boris Said while he was driving near/at the limit in an M3. I will readily admit that his limit and mine look and feel very different! Particularly in the braking zone…. deep at the limit braking in a real car is something my track days (and driving school) never got me really close to.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        yup, even when a really good driver pushes really hard and thinks he is near the limits, when ride with a REAL top race car driver, you then realize just how much time you are leaving on the table.

        Their entry speed is much more than most “fast” non-pro race drivers. So much that you cant believe how late they brake and the speed on entry.

        They also usually get the initial throttle application alot harder than most. Then from their they slowly modulate it.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        I read a pretty recent article where Stefano from Asetto Corsa was explaining technical details and complexities about how hard, those ground effect and turbo cars were to drive, at of course any sort of decent speed.

        From what he was saying in that article, you knew right there that AC is going to be a pure sim, and not dumbed down in any ways.

        I will look for the article :)

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Osella I found it!!!!!! :) :) :)

        User Post – “This car was insane… no doubt. It is amazing how much faster around a road course a modern F1 car is though. Downforce crushes HP for actual lap times. But not necessarily for driving fun in a sim”

        Aris – “Actually, this thing not only has double the horsepower and the same weight, it also has the same downforce too!

        The problem is that the aero efficiency is not on par with todays standards, that means that to get similar downforce you had much much more drag.

        Another much more serious problem is drivability. Modern F1s can be driven in a much wider envelope of their theoretical performance, while the 98T has a much narrower envelope.

        Oh and… you do remember when I was saying that driving in Assetto Corsa is easy with whatever car? Well yeah, screw that

        “Yeah, the first thing is definitely the Turbo. I mean modern engines have so much driveability that in comparison they seem like a normal street car. The 98T is nothing…nothing…nothing… nothing… 8000rpm… wheelspin! The fact that the engine is practically dead under the full turbo pressure rpms, forces you to use lower gears, but then you really need to be careful because with 1st and 2nd gear it’s a total wheel spin at full throttle and full boost.

        Then you have the aerodynamics. The car is pitch sensitive and there are no 3rd spring magic or similar, so you need to set it very stiff and very low (there were no limits in the rules) so you keep bouncing everywhere and scraping the ground… not very good for handling.

        The tyres are unbalanced front/rear because you need traction, so you need to try hard to make the car neutral and if you do you have no traction and if you have traction you have understeer and if that and if there and if what… messy.

        The gearboxes of course, no semiautomatic magic here… If you try it full hardcore with clutch and everything… not easy for sure and you waste lot’s of time too.

        As usual with AC, when you start driving it you’re like “well that’s not too hard after all” except when you’re spinning out of control because of severe wheel spin lol. But overall it’s still driveable. The problem is that you can’t understand where the actual limit of lap times is. There’s so much potential and you can feel it… but you can’t find it. If you drive aggressively it’s challenging and stunning, but all the wheelspin makes you slow. If you drive smooth, you will find yourself often without enough boost.
        I haven’t finished the physics of the car yet, far from it, but it seems already that continuously blipping the accelerator will keep turbo pressure in an acceptable level and keep your engine ready to kill you at the exit

        All in all, a beast of a car, very excited with it. Personally I’m not really into single seaters, I always preferred GT cars or vintage cars… but boy the 98T is amazing”

        ………………..”Yes the drivetrain simulates the need to use the clutch for gearchanging on manual gearbox that need so. On top of that if you use “automatic” clutch, it is simulated in a way that does everything a manual clutch user will do, AND at the slower timing. Don’t want to talk much about it but I think will let everybody happy.”

        …………………..”To be clear about it. If you’re not used to manually operating a clutch, you’ll be faster with automatic clutch. no doubt about it. But you’ll be faster against yourself , that should be clear.”

        If you know how to manually operate a clutch properly, potentially you’ll be faster than yourself using automatic clutch.

        The above though doesn’t mean that if I’m not that good of a driver, I’ll be faster using the clutch manually against another a bit better driver that uses the automatic clutch.

      • traind

        Not that it is important but that was mostly my conversation with Aris. I really appreciated him taking the time to walk through it in such detail… he comes across extremely well to the community.

        It will be very interesting to compare some of these cars across sims as many of the same racecars will be represented in almost all the new sims.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        well thank you for the convo then :)

      • Eric Zehnder

        I’m assuming this means they’ve confirmed the 98T will be in Assetto Corsa? That’s pretty awesome if true (not sure how I missed it).

        I will say that the first few public builds of pCARS had the 98T with this exact behavior and it was a blast and a real challenge to drive. The experience is different now due to a lack of massive camera shake (made things more dramatic) and the tire model being completely unoptimized on this car. In general, though, the way Aris described the cars behavior was far more in line with build 70-80 then recent builds. We’ll see how it pans out.

        Man, they really need to release that tech demo for Assetto Corsa. As long as it’s not the Fiat 500 I’ll be happy.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Ya it had the overal basic “experience” for me aswell, but not the physics in my opinion. You did get the beasty-ness feeling of the car though, that aspect did put a smile on your face :)

    • Kendra Jacobs

      The way AC’s cars are more naturally controllable, and the way PCar’s cars are easier to drive, are for 2 COMPLETELY different reasons (at least judging from all the AC videos I have seen and read).

      Reasons that I wont get into, in order to not start a huge fight or flame war.

  • Fritzisbro

    Whats wrong with mediafire or gamefront servers I’m staring at a five hour download time who’s bright idea was it to use deposite files?????????????????

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Justin-Schmidt/100001406158677 Justin Schmidt

    i like that mod very much. yes it is unforgiving but i noticed that this is only the case when the tire temps are slightly to low or high. u have to get the setup right or else it is not fun. i think that very much represents how it is in real life. in rl when u don’t get your setup right but still try to reach the times of the top u will spin.

  • Nils Lunding

    funny thing, as I say over and over again, it´s only one number in their tire file that was very wrong (being zero) in earlier versions and is now still way off…. in any other way this mod is great, but the tires are showstoppers. You can fight it with sick setups and ABS&TC, but still…..

    • Kendra Jacobs

      Really? Can you elaborate? I’d like to know more please.

      Also, can you tell us the file edits to make, to test what you are talking about? Is it for every single car/tire in the mod?

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Again, why would anyone down vote my message just because im asking someone to explain some possible physics improvements?

        Isnt that a good thing? I possible fix for even better physics?

        What is there to “down vote” about that?? lol…obviously just people hating

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=557052351 Damon Clewlow

    rF2 is not a ‘failure in every way’.

    rF2 is somewhat disappointing so far, but it has potential.. just like ‘pCARS’ has.

    • http://www.facebook.com/mazda.mps.1 Mazda Mps

      I hope pCARS has potential, because as soon as I found out it was going to hit the consoles too, alarm bells started to ring. Just can’t imagine it being a proper simulation.

      • David Wright

        Never heard of Richard Burns Rally? Available on PC and console. Still the benchmark for a rally sim.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        RBR had completely different physics on Playstation I believe. But yes, on consoles aswell.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Different tyre model (and overall physics model??) on consoles, dont worry :)

  • Anonymous

    I have always felt that most seasoned simracers do know when the cars are not handling right, but by “most”, i mean ones who take this type of subject seriously. Also worth noting is that quite a few sim racers i have known who do leagues and all that stuff know sod all about racing or sims, they just grab a mod and race it, but have no interest in setups (get them from others), the physics, setting up FOV, using cockpit, using anything above 200 degree steering, etc. Sometimes the lack of understanding or enthusiasm of the inner workings of these sims or mods leaves me shaking my head. For this reason, unless the person can prove with valid arguments that they know what they are talking about to a good degree, i completely ignore them on these types of debates.

    I’ve always found the most rational comments with experience as either a top sim racer, or real life race experience tend to have very good things to say about the ones based on rfactor, nk pro, gsc type of physics, and I’m yet to see anyone worth listening to say otherwise. This usually tracks well with my own feelings of the best mods, which again, leads me to have confidence in many more of the enthusiatc sim racers who like to get to the guts of their hobby and learn, read books on setups – those kind of folk. For the record, i find race07 a bit basic compared to full on sims, make of that what you will.

    This news post pretty much confirms that position. We all knew there was something slightly iffy with the backend of the enduracers mod when you enter the corners just over the limit, and it’s not always a blipping issue. I don’t have much problem with it myself, but it definitely does happen. But apart from this very well known issue, it’s nice to hear what most people felt – that this mod was fantastic and very accurate to the real thing.

    Good stuff.

    • traind

      Doesn’t simbin use ISI’s engine though? That doesn’t mean the modifications they make don’t make their titles come across as feeling simpler to you but the underlying engine is the same.

      Is the simpler feel related to a bit easier to drive or just less detailed FFB?

      • http://www.facebook.com/pauly.pantel Paul Pantel

        yes, simbin games are originaly from good old rfactor isi engine. but they have developed much further inhouse. so you can say the foundations of simbin games are from isi yes.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Diego-Colafabio/644649048 Diego Colafabio

    I’m happy to see this post. This is not a surprise for me, i love this mod, my favorite mod ever.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Markus-Ott/100000878526131 Markus Ott

      Indeed, the Endurance Series mod is the only mod I still have installed together with rFactor.

  • Marco Conti

    Funny, that’s been my complaint about the Enduracer mod for a long time. The first thing I do every time I race it is to soften rear ARB and shocks and increase dampers. Then the tail sticks and it’s more recoverable. Otherwise, the default setup is way too nervous and to easy to lose the tail.

    • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

      Enduracers will just tell you to enable TC and ABS at that simulates the real series. Without them, the cars are presumably death traps.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Possible good point.

        IF certain car’s physics were designed with specific aids on in the enduracers mod (or any mod), due to them having aids in real life, then the cars’ physics may be messed up if you dont use the aids, like you are supposed to.

        Just like how the Mini in GSC is supposed to always have ABS on. It doesnt matter if its low, med, or high, as all 3 are actually the same value, but it must be 1 of the 3, rather than off, to experience the proper physics the developers intended for that car.

        There are other mods like this aswell, cant remember though. I think possibly pcc mod? Or the old (but still great) VW Lupo Cup mod by GSMF, I think required either abs or stability control for proper physics…

        There are quite a few…

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        I wonder though if you disabled the driver assists on the real cars, would they be as loose and unstable as their Enduracers virtual equivalents.

      • Anonymous

        From what I’ve gathered from race engineers, the cars aren’t ‘death traps’, these aids are designed to make the driver faster and more consistent rather than safer. And just like any setup function, they only make fast drivers faster.

        One interesting thing about ACO cars TC (they don’t have ABS) is that they will sometimes change the mapping between corners with GPS input, so the car will allow different amounts of slip for each corner. Crazy stuff!

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Hard to say. I know that F1 cars had much different design philosophies and setups when they had traction control, and would be much much harder to drive without TC in a TC setup car.

        On top of that, no sim has perfect physics, so aside from the setup of the car, when they make the initial physics for a mod, they probably need to tailer the physics design around the fact that a mod uses an aid or not.

        If the aid is optional, then in my opinion they should design the physics more around not using it (since its just an option). If its a car though that always uses it in real life, then I would tune the physics so they are inline as much as possible with the real world example’s handling dynamics. Then turning it off, would be unrealistic and mess up the car dynamics, just like doing so in a car thats built and tuned to use the aid in real life would.

        Remember the aids in racing arent just generic safety aids, they are highly, sensitively tuned electronics systems to make the car faster, and allow the driver to reach the cars potential more easily and consistently, totally different than a “generic” road car safety aid.

        I remember Schumacher saying he loved the TC, apparently he was better than most in adpating his driving style, car setup, and overall approach to TC cars.

  • http://www.facebook.com/weyland.yutani.52687 Weyland Yutani

    Does this mean I’m a pro? :D

  • David BEHAL

    “The problem about losing control of the car in the end of braking is repairable with the right setup changes. For example changing the ride height setups gives a very good response, like it does in real life. I have not made a big effort to find an optimal setup for the mod, but the changes I have made so far have always responded logically.”

    This is exactly what most people miss out : simracing is about race cars not road cars so you HAVE to find a setup that fit the most to you and the track you are riding on. (we are not talking about console/arcade games with ultra simplified physics that will fit anyone/anything, we are talking about simulations that requires some personal investment to master them)

    Like him i also think that cars in ES mod, especially GT2 cars, have a little too much rear end slip on braking but nothing than a little setup work can’t easily fix.

    Most peoples take a mod, make 3 turns “as is” and then bash everything just because the base setup is not good for them and they are unable/ too lazy to make the appropriate changes to adapt it.

    Just study and learn how to setup a car and you will change your mind about a lot of mods.

    Talking about tires slipping curves rFactor is all customisable, you can make all you want to if you know how to make it, from “driving on ice” tires to “unrealistically ultra progressive” tires for, for exemple, a drift mod than can drift forever by itself.

    After that it’s all about modders decision to take one way or the other or anything in between , and as a lot of them are only 3D artists but haven’t any knowledge at all about physics and mechanics … well you know what i mean ;-)

  • http://www.facebook.com/marcel.penzke Marcel Penzkofer

    His teammate at AF Corse Federico Leo (2011 FIA GT3 Champion, 2012 GT-Open Champion) told me exactly the same thing which Toni Vilander did here, as he is driving a GT2 EnduSeries Championship with us. He is a bloody fast guy and very hard to beat as he jumps in the car, does three laps, disappears for 20 minutes and comes back with a selfmade setup beating every time ever done during the past five days by anyone else… :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/pauly.pantel Paul Pantel

    hmm thats correct. depending on how much steering angle the car can have, you can recover from spins, from slicks to road tires. see it all the time on dusty climbs in mainland europe. so far I feel that live for speed simulates that apsect very well when loosing control. RBR simulates gravel and force feedback, suspention and 4wd very well. wish we could combine those into a sim we can mod and play with. what ever happen to Eero Piitulainen and hes Drivers Republic sim that was going to acomplish this.

    • David Wright

      He went to work for Slightly Mad Studios to produce the tyre model for Shift. It does power-sliding really well and very forgiving. You can drive the cars just like Clarkson on Top Gear. Too forgiving for the hardcore.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=696231679 Ole Marius Myrvold

        He also made the first tyre-model for pCars, which the majority wanted to change, and SMS got a new tyre-model guy.

      • Kendra Jacobs

        Ya and that tyre model had NOTHING in common with his tyre models when he worked on his own with RBR and drivers republic.

        That tyre model in Drivers Republic even in first build was already amazing, like RBR but more properly fixed for tarmac (rbr had problems with tarmac physics, he said so himself, in order to make the off road physics so amazing, had to compromise).

        Who knows what the issue was when he was with sms, but something was off there. To go from RBR, then the even more amazing Drivers Republic and then to the first PCars tyre model? Something weird happened there between him and SMS thats for sure.

        I still think the pre-alpha wingless open wheeler in Drivers repub (Im guessing f1600) was even better than the F1600 in Netkar Pro today, honestly.

      • C4

        Different kind of job. Physics lead at Warthog, with input toward the final game / sim. Additional programmer at SMS (S2U) supplying some physics assets without direct input on final game / sim. Also all code runs through the ISI engine since they use that for some physics assets. So you’re having ISI code, Eero’s code which had to re-use some ISI functions which are made for MF not physical models not to mention PhysX collision which isn’t always ideal (not that other sims have perfect collision models…)

      • pez2k .

        Quite interesting that mate, got a source? What I’ve read from SMS on the pCARS forums seemed to hint that even in Shift they were using virtually no ISI code and that the tyre model was Eero’s. That’s just from one side of course.

      • C4

        Reliable source, research, exactly the same “quirks” as in ISI sims regarding suspension (swaybar, seperate speed for fast/slow damper, 3rd spring, spring multiplier based in ride height / spring length and so on) and chassis behaviour all of which are fully functional, not just using the same files. Other source Doug Arnao in AutoSimSport said this way back some years who confirmed that when he got asked (I can look up the link if you want) . However tire code isn’t the only change, as I said collision is pretty important when it reports tire contact to ground and of course vehicle collisions (not that any sim does this perfectly so PhysX may be the best middleware choice there, IIRC Kunos will also use it) . Besides as I said they had to reuse some ISI functions for the tire models which isn’t ideal at all as they are made for MF models.

        Yes, the last info (at least for non WMD members) about chassis and others is that they “replace” it http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/pcars-a-community-divided.55267/page-11#post-1233544 (better not read the full thread, if you haven’t already ;) ) as stated by Ian Bell. They already replaced the tyre assets for various reasons. Might be they intend to not use any ISI code in the final game, I can’t say. From my point of view ISI code works beautifully in GSC and some mods for other sims, and Eero’s code also works beautifully within his own frameworks (RBR, DR) and likely SMS didn’t use its potential either by the implementation within their framework or other reasons.

      • http://www.facebook.com/pauly.pantel Paul Pantel

        don’t forget guys, Eero posted somewhere that for some games he is forced to dum down the phyics to make it more arcadey by the request of the team.

      • C4

        I think he should have worked for a sim developer.

        Forgiving is nice but cars felt like they are 2FMSHing (how iRacing people called saves with braking and front brake bias) all the time even on throttle and in GT1/2 cars. Which makes sense if you look at the traction levels. Shame they were unable to use it properly.

    • Kendra Jacobs

      Drivers republic in its alpha or pre-alpha or whatever, was better than Netkar Pro in my opinion.

      Very similiar feel, but different at the same time.

      His work with SMS didnt resemble Drivers republic tyre model/physics in any way shape or form. Maybe thats why he left? No idea, but that was pretty sad.

      He needs to really make his own sim again.

  • http://twitter.com/clivelomax Clive Lomax

    Move the Brake Balance to 65% front, learn to modulate your braking and try it again..

    • Anonymous

      “Learn to modulate your braking” says the simmer to the pro…

      • http://twitter.com/clivelomax Clive Lomax

        Sorry ha ha ha, the comment was aimed at the simmers complaining here, not to Toni Vilander. You think I think he reads the comments here PMSL.

      • Anonymous

        Aha, that makes more sense ;)

      • http://twitter.com/clivelomax Clive Lomax

        ;)

      • http://racingrenders.com/ F1Racer

        But the simmers have the same complaint as the pro.
        I’m sure those who drive this mod and agree that the rear end on the GT cars is too loose have tried all sorts of setup changes already.
        Whatever fudging you do to ‘fix’ the issue, the underlying issue is still not right and still exists.
        I can’t believe that if you removed TC and ABS from the real cars, that they would just lose the rear end like that in a corner.
        That’s always been the issue with this mod. But, oh well, the debate will linger and nothing will change.

      • http://twitter.com/clivelomax Clive Lomax

        Yeah, dont really have an answer for you, maybe the physics are “wrong” but I have stuck with it and become used to it, maybe others have given up because they just dont want to persist with the mod that they feel is unrealistic.
        I booted it up last night to see if I really was crazy to like it.
        I ran the Porsche 997 at brands hatch using the setup I mentioned above and was able to run a hotlap 4 seconds faster than the next nearest GT2 car. The car is way more slidey than other cars I grant you, but I get a lot of satisfaction knowing I got a corner perfect and didnt lose time.
        I have always wondered about sim versus reality and complaints of handling.
        If, say a real Ferrari F430 can take the first corner at Mid ohio at 60mph and no faster without spinning out and sliding wide, your natural senses will prevent you from pushing faster than that.
        If however you try the same thing in a sim, you are missing certain senses and may go in faster and not make the corner….
        Sim racing will never be a replacement for real racing, you simply dont get the thrill of putting your life at risk by racing…

        I guess what i’m saying is drive to the limit of the sim.
        Dont complain that the sim wont do what you believe it should.
        Real racing drivers do this, they drive to the limits of the tyres, aero and grip levels and dont push the car beyond, if they do they lose control..

  • Big Ron

    Looks pretty cool how he sits in the seat with his complete racing gear :) Also he seems to be very used to what he´s doing in his real car. Looks nice.

  • http://twitter.com/StarFoXySxv550 StarFoXySxv550

    I wonder how realistic the prototypes are in this mod?? Those feel really nice to drive straight out the box for me.

  • Anonymous

    1)You don’t have to read it,
    2)There’s nothing wrong about discussing sims in general, if we should always keep 100% on topic there would be like 3 posts, there just isn’t much you can say about this narrow topic, for me discussins about realism etc. on virtualr are some of the most interesting, there aren’t that many boards discussing it,
    3)You don’t have to read it for gods sake.

    • Big Ron

      1) I need to read it because when I am searching for interesting post related to the article I need a minute to scroll through it.

      2) There is sth. wrong with it since you are repeating the same stuff over and over again in every article and it´s always the same people. If there would be sth. new in your discussions, it´s would be quite fine.

      3) Of course, you need to replay, because you are one of those always right in the middle.

      4)1) I need to read it because when I am searching for interesting post related to the article I need a minute to scroll through it.

      • Anonymous

        Well, that’s too bad for you. Go ask mods of this site to delete 90% of all posts and let YOU decide what everyone should be talking about, I’m sure he will be happy to hear it.

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