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Looking forward to when SRW is open to all.

Does any one know if Image Space supports this new commercial venture – do they have an official stance regarding Simraceway? I would have thought using the rFactor name (or GTR2) to generate revenue for a non-affiliated company must be infringing some type of copyright legislation.

Until Simraceway receives official support from developers such as Image Space and Simbin, I think it will it always be treated with suspicion by the race sim community.

Well, there’s a logo in the bottom banner of the page that says “Simbin official partner”.

Fully agree with you Tigerteeth! I wonder if this is legal?

Long life to rFactor-planet !

If there is a real legal issue, that stops mods form being used in paid to race, (which would have to include server fees! because who could know the difference)and leagues that offer any kind of prizes. Then it is a (death) blow to modding and rFactor. Because the direction Sim racing is going is pay to compete with the chance to when prizes or money.

Mr. A:
Well, there’s a logo in the bottom banner of the page that says “Simbin official partner”.

…that doesn’t link to any page describing the details of this partnership. Yet the VeriSign logo to the immediate right does.

And I cannot find any official statement from Simbin about this matter – surely there would be a press release clearly stating their involvement in this venture. Doing a quick google search produces no results either – strange.

Tigerteeth:

And yet I cannot find any official statement from Simbin about this matter – surely there would be a press release clearly stating their involvement in this partnership. Doing a quick google search produces no results either – strange.

Simbin must be partners with srw, pro members, get GTR2 ( released 2006 ) free, when you subscribe to their monthly service at a cost.

Well, MMG endorses Simraceway. That should be enough of a sign for any sim racer to run like hell from SRW.

I understand modders fear of legal issues. But they may be opening a can of worms they’ll end up wishing they didn’t. For providers of racing leagues to be 100% legal. They’ll end up having to legally declare themselves, (non-profit organizations). The way I understand that law, is no commerical advertising and no fees for services can be charged. They can only operate with (donations). Personnally I think it would be better to let things happen naturally. Then to focus attention on this matter!

samanthaUK:

Simbin must be partners with srw, pro members, get GTR2 ( released 2006 ) free, when you subscribe to their monthly service at a cost.

Maybe, but I’ll remain sceptical until Simbin publicly announces its involvement in Simraceway.

neurosol:
Long life to rFactor-planet !

+1

Paul Kelly: Well, MMG endorses Simraceway. That should be enough of a sign for any sim racer to run like hell from SRW.

Please evaluate your statement please!

Hompe:

Please evaluate your statement please!

Do I need to put “HEAVY SARCASM” in neon lights for people to figure it out? MMG is one of the most unethical, uncooperative modding groups around, in my opinion, so its ringing endorsement via the letter from Petros Mak adds yet another reason why I want nothing to do with Simraceway.

I still dont see why Simnin should want to partner with a site that has the competitions core product as a showcase ??

Paul Kelly:

Do I need to put “HEAVY SARCASM” in neon lights for people to figure it out? MMG is one of the most unethical, uncooperative modding groups around, in my opinion,

…and you never miss an opportunity to let it be known. In this case though, one thing has nothing to do with another.
If Osama Bin Laden liked Michael Jackson does that mean we would all have to boycott his music ?
SRW are who they are regardless of who endorses them.
You make your judgement calls of SRW based on them. Don’t be weak minded and let someone else make your mind up for you.

BSR-WiX:
I still dont see why Simnin should want to partner with a site that has the competitions core product as a showcase ??

I’m not entirely sure that they are partners, as no aspect of this decision makes any sense for Simbin…

No comments on that site, it’s just a complete BS at all.

And when the hell MMG’s Mak is the representative of the community? If this company wanted to “clean” their image, they should have released a statement by themselves, but not through a non-trustable guy. To me, it seems that the sites want to fool the new comers to upload their works onto the site.

Well, I’d see some reasons. It is indeed a nice concept, as far as no “unauthorised content” is involved.

I must say I don’t quite understand how aggressive this becomes. Did SRW make a statement saying they would use that content anyway? Could it be possible that they are struggling with deadlines and so on and lack some staff to remove everything that has been asked to be removed in time?

I’d say let’s wait and see. People who worked on mods (from scratch or conversions) must now ask constantly for their things to be removed, and I’d see no reason for that not to be accepted.

If the SimBin partnership is true, they might partner also with ISI and I think they probably have already tried, but maaaaybe ISI got cold feet seeing how the community reacts angrily.

Anyway, apart from unauthorised stuff issues, the concept is very pleasant and I would definitely see the point for devs like ISI and Simbin to partner with such a web platform.

Think about iRacing and the need to match the level of interactivity / semi-professionalism simracing has gained with recent iRacing money prized competitions.

Arnold Carter Wong:
No comments on that site, it’s just a complete BS at all.
And when the hell MMG’s Mak is the representative of the community? If this company wanted to “clean” their image, they should have released a statement by themselves, but not through a non-trustable guy. To me, it seems that the sites want to fool the new comers to upload their works onto the site.

+1

I’d like to remove my Civic Cup but I can’t seem to delete anything.

F1Racer:

…and you never miss an opportunity to let it be known. In this case though, one thing has nothing to do with another.

Of course it does. MMG was among the mod groups boycotting SRW. Then suddenly Petros changed his tune and came out in public support while no other modding groups did.

That suggests funny business to me. Possibly SRW is offering MMG a cut of its profits or payment for creating the vaunted “in house” mods that will be used for profit at SRW.

Either way, I think it’s pretty telling that both SRW and MMG — which both appear loose in the ethics department — are bedfellows.

And Bin Laden and Michael Jackson? Please: That’s a HORRIBLE analogy. SRW hosts rFactor mods; MMG creates rFactor mods. They can easily be intertwined. Last time I checked, Bin Laden is a fundamentalist leader of a terror group and Jackson was an entertainer. What’s their close relationship?

Get real.

Paul Kelly:
Of course it does. MMG was among the mod groups boycotting SRW. Then suddenly Petros changed his tune and came out in public support while no other modding groups did.
That suggests funny business to me. Possibly SRW is offering MMG a cut of its profits or payment for creating the vaunted “in house” mods that will be used for profit at SRW.

That is just an assumption on your part and something you have no evidence for.
To be fair though, have any other modding groups actually spoke 1 to 1 with SRW ?

And Bin Laden and Michael Jackson? Please: That’s a HORRIBLE analogy.

Admittedly not the best one, but the fact remains that just because someone who you don’t like supports something, doesn’t automatically mean thats a reason to avoid it.
Who Bin Laden and Jackson is, is kinda missing the point.

Thanks for the reminder on the GTR slogan. I don’t see anything unreal in my post other than an overstated analogy which does not affect my grip on reality.
If you found out that Petros liked a movie that you weren’t sure about going to see, would you then avoid it ?
My point is, MMGs stance on this is irrelevant. I doubt SRW are changing a thing with or with their endorsement. So if you’re gonna hate on SRW, do it for the right reasons.

F1Racer:

That is just an assumption on your part and something you have no evidence for.

You’re absolutely right. But I have my suspicions, based only in that — suspicion.

F1Racer:

If you found out that Petros liked a movie that you weren’t sure about going to see, would you then avoid it ?
My point is, MMGs stance on this is irrelevant. I doubt SRW are changing a thing with or with their endorsement. So if you’re gonna hate on SRW, do it for the right reasons.

Another terrible analogy. Petros is not a filmmaker. He’s a mod maker. And the site in question, SRW, hosts mods. So you’re trying to divorce the two, when it’s very difficult to do so.

MMG supports SRW. That’s in the public domain. I didn’t trust SRW from the start, and I never have trusted MMG. Put both together, and it doesn’t suddenly breed huge trust. It intensifies distrust. I don’t know why that’s so tough to interpret.

So please stop comparing apples and oranges. A comparison of MMG — a mod maker — with SRW — a mod hoster — is apt. Last time I checked, mod hosters host mods created by mod makers. Mod hosters and mod makers aren’t terrorists, pop superstars or movie critics.

I have been granted access to SRW and I’ve to say their one click install is awesome great idea that one! First time I entered their site I was asked to register as a pro or download it the old way but now that is gone and seems like for the time being they removed the Pro option and everything is “free”!

Downloading speed seems to be quite unstable and max I got was 190kbps. I find the colors too dark reminds me of Michael Jackson’s funeral, not so user friendly and its very demanding on your internet connection some guys with slower internet speed will have some problems there.

All I can say the one click install is more then enough to make SRW successful but not talking to moders was a very big mistake and a silly price to pay. All tracks in rfactorcentral are there all with one click install including all the ones in rfactorcentral with no links or dead links!

SRW must come out say they are sorry ask for forgiveness and pick up from there! Also before they removed the Pro option it was U$4,95 a month with full access including to those paid races not bad at all specially when you see how much race2play charge for a full subscription! Race2play are the only ones to fear SRW!

I haven’t got access yet, but isn’t this similar to what Race2Play has to offer? Why is Race2Play OK while SRW is not?

This is all so petty. SRW is really no different to AVSIM or FlightSim.Com, or for that matter Fileshack. I laugh at those flying the rFactor Planet flag because for those of us who just want to use mods, functionality and ease-of-access rule.

Either the community can go back to its primitive ways of mod distribution, or can join the 21st century. As for this website, the webmaster beats up this issue now, but give it time and the shoe will be on the other foot. One day he’ll realise that doing it as a hobby no longer holds his interest and he’ll either stop doing it and will be damned, or will attempt to make it part of another website and will be damned.

The longer I’m around this ‘community’ the more I come to believe that iRacing will be for the adults and the rest for the kids….

Community is over-reacting and I find it quite a let-down that virtualr is actually getting people nervous about SRW and taking such a side in a stupid “fight” against people whose only error were communication flaws and lack of time to remove everything that has been asked to be removed.

I mean, come on… how old are you guys?

I must confess to not being sure I really understand exactly what the issue is here. I don’t see SRW ripping off other people’s work; surely they are just offering a service that people are free to join up to if they want, and likewise ignore if they want.

This seems very similar to a lot of the reaction to R2P on the LFS forums, where a lot of people denounced it as simply making money off of the back of LFS, when in reality they were simply offering a service incorporating LFS for users to use or not use as they so wish.

A lot of the reaction is almost what I would expect were SRW selling people’s mods. As I say, I really don’t think I’m understanding what the issue is here.

As for VR’s stance on it: not to be critical, but I think you maybe need to decide whether you want to be a news site or a place for editorial. I love this site and think you do a great job, but I think in instances like this it would perhaps be better to present the facts as they are and let readers make up their own minds. As I say, this is not to be critical; I think you offer a great service and are obviously free to operate this place as you see fit. But from my point of view, I would prefer to see this site as a news forum (where there is already room for discussion here in the comments section) than a mouth-piece for individual’s personal views.

Personally, I have no interest in SRW or the services it offers, but then I’m sure there are those who do. I just don’t understand quite what the mod-makers’ objections are.

Regards,
Simon

LensFlare:
Community is over-reacting and I find it quite a let-down that virtualr is actually getting people nervous about SRW and taking such a side in a stupid “fight” against people whose only error were communication flaws and lack of time to remove everything that has been asked to be removed.
I mean, come on… how old are you guys?

So and what side are taking? Or do you HAVE to take a side?

The errors you mentioned are pretty big ones. After the boykott the claimed that they never thought of using community mods for their commercial events. And now the site shows that there are still some commercial events with community made mods. Yeah the lack of time to remove any evidence that they lied….

Also they could have given the modders the opportunity to remove their mods or even the download links from their site but even that isn’t possible. On their getsatisfaction board they even stated that only the modders themself should be the ones to add their work to SRW and still they’ve added them on their own and don’t even give the modders access to their work.

So I’m old enough to speak for myself… and you?

Stream:
I haven’t got access yet, but isn’t this similar to what Race2Play has to offer? Why is Race2Play OK while SRW is not?

There is no good reason for that. It’s all a knee-jerk reaction by a self-important community that feels threatened when an outsider does something unexpected. Race2Play was created by a member of the existing community, so the same thing was quietly accepted.

erale:

After the boykott the claimed that they never thought of using community mods for their commercial events. And now the site shows that there are still some commercial events with community made mods. Yeah the lack of time to remove any evidence that they lied….

That meant that they would not make commercial events with content that had been asked to be removed. The boycott starting after they had already started to build their website and organize some events in advance. That’s what I was calling “communication flaws”.

Read my post again and try to check if there could be another way of seeing things as yours.

That’s exactly what I’m discussing here, noone can seem to have an ear for other points of view. And since Virtualr is definitely taking side, it doesn’t help.

Did not mean to offese you, Mr Erale, it was just a general comment on the whole community reaction that I find quite uncomprehensive.

I’m sure those guys at SRW are good chaps with good intentions and did not see it coming (the boycott thing) thus being unprepared to react to such violence.

So again, let’s wait and see before we put a judgment. Now is just… too early !

samanthaUK:

Simbin must be partners with srw, pro members, get GTR2 ( released 2006 ) free, when you subscribe to their monthly service at a cost.

Well no, anyone can buy something and give it away as a prize or for joining something. If they bought 4 loaves of bread and gave them away to someone else, it wouldn’t make them partners with the baker, just customers.

They might be partners, of course, but that isn’t the evidence for it.

As for this, it’s laughable. Most, if not all, mods are derivative works and most, if not all, will be uncopyrightable because of that – and because they don’t do anything significant to warrant copyright. So it’s just lots of hot air and blather about “permission”

I doubt very much anyone needs permission to do anything, with at least the vast majority of released mods. If you crap in a field it’s no good going back for money when you realise the farmer sells it to make roses grow.

As others have said, many other sim sites, whether they ask for money or, whether they beg for donations are doing the same thing. The main difference is these guys are open about the money and upfront about how much they want from you. When, for example, RD post a rant and whine about the lack of donations they have received, and say they will have to start pay to race, I wish they’d have some self respect and have the balls to run a business instead of begging and then, when it fails to work, whining about it.

So I give these new guys some kudos for being open about being commercial.

The truth is, these guys aren’t likely to make any significant money from the so-called “sim community” because the sim community is too small and insignificant and already spread amongst too many titles and sites….and most of them, as Bram’s recent whine suggests, don’t want to pay anything.

Blimey, it’s unlikely simbin or any of the folk the modders mod will make any money from the sim community. So, once iracing is the only gig in town, the modders won’t have a gig anyway. They should be jumping on any chance for their work to matter. Not acting like prima donnas. One day, if not already, they’ll have to grow up and get paid for something too and it won’t be sim-related if they succeed in making the “sim community” synonymous with “pay for nothing”

Given that many of the mods I see on this site have absolutely no respect at all for the copyrights or licenses they use I can’t really see what their point is (except, of course, for the ones they have to heed because their past incursions resulted in action from the owner – I note the last story spoke of fear of this happening for more mods)

Lastly, this is the worst kind of “journalism”, I know this isn’t a professional news source, but you could at least try and report things with a degree of impartiality and professionalism.

LensFlare:

That meant that they would not make commercial events with content that had been asked to be removed. The boycott starting after they had already started to build their website and organize some events in advance. That’s what I was calling “communication flaws”.

The boycott started after the modders got no answer if there would be events like the race.me events on the old RFC. As SRW seemed that they didn’t want to talk with the modders about that issue the boycott started. THEN they reacted and said that modders should have contacted them…

So that issue could have been solved before the boycott started. And then they blame the modders?

I for myself never said that I would never ever add any of my work on SRW. But as long as certain things are still unclear I don’t want to see my work on that site. But obviously they ignored my request and never tried to discuss this issue with me. And I’m sure they didn’t do that with other modders who joined that boycott.

I totally agree with Michael.

Glad I’m not alone.

Totally silly stuff! SRW isn’t doing anything different from what Race2play are oh wait they are… if you want you can become a PRO member with access to all racing events, one click downloads, etc. while race2play charges you U$15 a month if you want to get in some good races. BUT SRW will be totally free if you want but you ain’t get some races I guess that’s what Race2play does. Modders should be happy their work will get more light but instead they just hate! I bet Race2Play is giving the shots over this boycotting and many modders are following without a damn clue of what is going on. My case… I want to race online in some good races but I cant spend U$15 a month doing that but for U$4 hell ya I can
Again SRW contact each modder please and open a channel for them contacting you things will get solved and we can continue to find all the best mods pretty easily!

Ohh yes I´m definetely taking sides here, no doubt. I´m on the site of the people who spent a good portion of their day creating content for free for us…and whose whishes are being ignored by SRW.

I find it funny that many people are quick to defend SRW while the modders are looked down on. I think some of you people’s should rethink their priorities, where would the rfFactor community be without modding?

A few random points I want to comment on:

1) The SRW guys are good chaps with good itensension and it’s all just a communication flaw

If you call hiding a flaw, then yes, I agree. Ever since their project started, the guys running this site have been hiding, only releasing PR statements that did not answer any questions or contained lies.

Their statement to the boycott claimed that they never planned to run commercial events with mods and yet those events are still listed. That’s a big fat lie right there…

They never cared to communicate with the community directly, it would have been easy to sign up to RSC or to VirtualR and engage with users. They didn’t, which leads me to believe they have a good reason not to.

2) SRW doesen’t really expect to make profits

Right, that’s why they bought rFactorcentral to start their site. I don’t know if any of you guys are businessmen but you don’t invest in something unless you expect a return of investment.

3) SRW wants to help modders make profits

Jesus, when will the last person understand that modders can’t make profits with mods of real-life series? This is simply not possible from a legal point of view and the fact that SRW is even suggesting that shows that they are either feeding you lies or have no idea what they´re talking about.

4) VirtualR shouldn’t be taking side or offer editorials

I usually agree, I´ve never done anything like this before and I hope I don’t have to do it again, this matter is too important to be left alone.

It seems to be that no one is really seeing the side of the modders, everybody’s always quick to blame them as whiners or whatnot. I think you people are making a terrible mistake here, these guys and their willingness to work their asses of for free are the backbone of the rFactor community – Not a single website or business outfit.

Regarding ΜΜG, some over the top negative comments have been made in the past, I’ll give you that. I don’t want to offend individual MMG members but clearly, a SRW endorsement by a team that has history of releasing mods with ripped content was not exactly the most effective way of reassuring the community about the site’s “integrity”. Quite the opposite, really. How come Petros Mak was the only person who was convinced by their statements? Was everybody else that stupid?

I don’t get any pleasure in saying “I told you so” about SRW guys’ probably hoping that reactions and mod teams’ requests would die out eventually and that they would be able to stick to their original plan then. Why would they make this investment if they were to exclude what are probably the most popular mods out there and run only pay-to-play events at ISI content? It’s obvious that if they were to stick only to those, they would be left with the choice of ignoring modders’ wishes, otherwise it would be hard to keep this site viable and they would probably rather shutting the whole thing down.

This is nothing else than bad business decisions for them. I don’t think they ever realized how catastrophic disapproval from the core of the community can be. When they end up listing only ripped mods and events that run at GPL conversions, they’re going to, but it will be a bit late then.

Paul Kelly:

Another terrible analogy. Petros is not a filmmaker. He’s a mod maker. And the site in question, SRW, hosts mods. So you’re trying to divorce the two, when it’s very difficult to do so.

OK I see the problem here. You understand what an anaolgy is, but you fail to relate to them because you take them literally.
The analogy is fine. With analogies you don’t necessarily compare like to like. That’s kinda the whole point.
You well know the point I’m trying to make whether you pretend to or not and you know that just because someone you dont like, likes something, doesn’t mean you need to dislike it. Is that clear enough for ya or are we going to get into a whole big thing here ?

Montoya, come one…

You can’t possibly say that “noone takes modders side” !!

I mean come on, I thought I was the only one thinking differently. And I’ve got 2 or 3 people posting comments and am quite surprised actually.

Then on topic:

You have taken side with modders that either don’t work from scratch or have definitely copyrights blindness.

It doesn’t take a genius brain to make a conversion and change this or that. I don’t call that modding.

And a conversion from a different game is by definition “not quite legal”.

Things made from scratch, however, don’t show any respect for licences. You’ve got real sponsors, real names, inside them, no worry ever made about not having the licence to use those logos / names.

So no, I’m not quite taking this side in this foolish battle because I think that “everything for freeee” motto is really an issue on the internet.

Go on like this and you’ll be surprised to see less and less games on the PC. Oh wait, you guys are already are… Noticed the NFS: Shift category on a simulation news website? lol !

So… In conclusion, I don’t see that much of bad things in SRW and quite the opposite, to be honnest.

F1Racer:

OK I see the problem here. You understand what an anaolgy is, but you fail to relate to them because you take them literally.
The analogy is fine. With analogies you don’t necessarily compare like to like. That’s kinda the whole point.
You well know the point I’m trying to make whether you pretend to or not and you know that just because someone you dont like, likes something, doesn’t mean you need to dislike it. Is that clear enough for ya or are we going to get into a whole big thing here ?

It’s about as clear as a mud puddle, man. You can make analogies between anything you want, but that doesn’t ensure their clarity.

Petros makes mods, and the ethics of his group have been in question. SRW is going to host mods, and its ethics are in question. You don’t see the intertwined relationship there? There’s not enough of a connection there to draw conclusions on both as a whole?

Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles could see that. Sorry you can’t.

I see the point you’re trying to make. And it makes zero sense. Is that any more clear?

You can babble on all you want about independent thinking, about how MMG and SRW aren’t connected. It will be gibberish to me. Petros Mak wrote a letter in support of SRW — two groups that I don’t trust one bit, aligning in public — and that’s quite enough of a connection for me.

Paul, very few modders have “ethics”.

Everything depends on the level of ethic you ask for.

If you take a mod made from scratch, using real logos, real series names, real drivers names, or tracks being called “Le Mans” when the ACO (who owns the rights) made clear noone should use that name unless paid for, where’s the ethic?

I’m quite looking forward to what is about to happen, because SRW might be injecting more morale and respect of right owners into the community of modders.

You could host a “F1″ mod with fake logos and changed names and maybe call it “SRW Formula” mod if you want, and I’m positive the mod becomes legal and you can actually make some money for it.

Maybe (just a theory here, but just to show you that you shouldn’t see evil everywhere when you don’t know exactly the facts) MMG decided to see those points as true and decided to work on a mod where logos / names would be fictionnal…

F1Racer
I think that the only correct analogy starring Michael Jackson and Bin Landen would have occured if Jackson went to Afghanistan before 9/11, shook hands with Landen, allready a wanted man, then talked to the press about him being an ok peson and then 9/11 took place .

LensFlare
You don’t seem to understand that there are no legal issues with modders’ replications of real world cars with real world sponsors, as long as they do not use it for commercial purposes. It’s not in a shady place between legal and illegal. Preventing a modeler from making a real world car would be like asking for royalties if a painter drew a 911 on a canvas. But once you start selling mods, the company is going to come forward saying that it reserves the right to give exclusive rights for commercial usage to whatever games industry it chooses.
So what SRW does raises several issues:
- The unfair practice of not respecting modders’ wishes as stated by their license agreements. Regardless of the fact that mods often replicate real world cars, the rendering is their intellectual property. The sole act of (however crackable) encryption on mod content clearly indicates that they took effort in having their copyright rights respected.
- The, let’s say “unethical”, for lack of better word as I don’t speak good English, practice of not only making money out of other peoples’ work, but leaving modders the only party in the sim industry that make no money at all, despite being the driving force behind it.
- The next to impossible to overcome legal problems that occur when you start to use models that depict real word cars, series and tracks for commercial purposes, as said before.
So even if there was nothing for them to gain or loose, modders are right to take a stance against this and Montoya is right to think that too few persons really take their point of view into consideration.
I don’t know if you would see less games on pc indeed if it went on like this, but you sure are going to see less mods if it didn’t.

No, CrippleHorse, I’m perfectly aware of what you’re saying. I’m just saying that boycotting the thing instead of looking at the positive side is a shame.

I mean you can still fill the games with content that you don’t own licence for, but you can also make some modifications and make a “SRW compatible” mod.

If you see my point.

English is not my mother tongue either, so sometimes I can be misunderstood. Even in french, I sometimes have problems lol

About the “unfair practice of not respecting modders wishes”, I’d say lets wait a bit more and see what happens. If they go on like this, I’ll be on your side saying they are evil. But for now, what I see is a bunch of guys a bit overwhelmed by a situation they had not foreseen (lack of info, or too much optimism, or just lacking experience). I say let’s wait and see.

That’s a comment worth quoting,

CrippleHorse:
F1Racer
I think that the only correct analogy starring Michael Jackson and Bin Landen would have occured if Jackson went to Afghanistan before 9/11, shook hands with Landen, allready a wanted man, then talked to the press about him being an ok peson and then 9/11 took place .
LensFlare
You don’t seem to understand that there are no legal issues with modders’ replications of real world cars with real world sponsors, as long as they do not use it for commercial purposes. It’s not in a shady place between legal and illegal. Preventing a modeler from making a real world car would be like asking for royalties if a painter drew a 911 on a canvas. But once you start selling mods, the company is going to come forward saying that it reserves the right to give exclusive rights for commercial usage to whatever games industry it chooses.
So what SRW does raises several issues:
- The unfair practice of not respecting modders’ wishes as stated by their license agreements. Regardless of the fact that mods often replicate real world cars, the rendering is their intellectual property. The sole act of (however crackable) encryption on mod content clearly indicates that they took effort in having their copyright rights respected.
- The, let’s say “unethical”, for lack of better word as I don’t speak good English, practice of not only making money out of other peoples’ work, but leaving modders the only party in the sim industry that make no money at all, despite being the driving force behind it.
- The next to impossible to overcome legal problems that occur when you start to use models that depict real word cars, series and tracks for commercial purposes, as said before.
So even if there was nothing for them to gain or loose, modders are right to take a stance against this and Montoya is right to think that too few persons really take their point of view into consideration.
I don’t know if you would see less games on pc indeed if it went on like this, but you sure are going to see less mods if it didn’t.

LensFlare: If you take a mod made from scratch, using real logos, real series names, real drivers names, or tracks being called “Le Mans” when the ACO (who owns the rights) made clear noone should use that name unless paid for, where’s the ethic?

You’re effectively saying ALL modding based on real entities is unethical……which is kind of a problem in a genre where everyone is obsessed with realism and simulating reality, whether it be tracks or cars. Hell I’ve even seen people complain because the billboards on a track arent the same as real life
I think the factor that sets SRW apart in this instant is intent. Do modders “rip” off the ACO’s rights to Le Mans to make money? No. Are SRW using the modders’ work to make money? Only they know that, I have no idea what their operating costs actually are but so far from a distance it looks far from ethical.

Well, Forza, that’s exactly my point. Realism and simulation is not so much about names and logos, but about physics and handling.

I wouldn’t be annoyed at all to drive such a modified mod.

“Do modders “rip” off the ACO’s rights to Le Mans to make money?”

Of course not, but doing so, they make content available for a game when maybe the ACO would love to release an official game.

When you have rFactor almost for free and a free mod available for download, it is indeed a problem in terms of fair marketing. A developper will need to pay good money to make an official game about Le Mans, and might get cold feet thinking that… well… is it worth it when we have such a free concurrent?

That’s my whole point.

I also have no problem with Montoya injecting his opinion into the site, either. He is the godfather of this site and a major player in the sim racing community, and his voice is one that should be heard and his opinions should be considered.

Maybe the headlines on posts in which Montoya offers an opinion could start with “Opinion: ” Otherwise, I don’t mind reading the occasional opinions of a guy who is pretty well plugged into the sim racing community, even if I disagree with them at times. It’s all food for THOUGHT.

This blog without an occasional Montoya opinion on major issues in the sim community would be like a newspaper without an editorial and only reader-submitted letters to the editor.

After all, Montoya has provided this blog for us to rant and rave about sim racing topics EVERY DAY. Who are we to say he can’t he do the same from time to time?

Paul Kelly:
After all, Montoya has provided this blog for us to rant and rave about sim racing topics EVERY DAY. Who are we to say he can’t he do the same from time to time?

I’m not sure anyone is.

As I said in my post above, Montoya can do as he pleases. My point is simply if this is to be a news site, then perhaps personal opinions should be kept in the comments section, or should be run as a separate editorial. I’d probably be slightly alarmed if he didn’t have opinions given how involved he is in the community, I just think there are way to express opinions on such matters which can be better or worse for this site which he puts so much into.

VirtualR is in my opinion brilliant as a source of sim news, and I believe Montoya’s opinion, whilst obviously not always the same as mine, will at the very least be from a point informed to an above-average level. I just think, for me personally, I’d much rather see this site remain a news site and not “just” a glorified blog (no disrespect intended).

Who am I to say this? Well, I’m a member of the community who greatly enjoys and appreciates Montoya’s efforts to provide this site. Giving my honest opinion on how I see this site being the best it can be is the least I can do.

Paul Kelly:

It’s about as clear as a mud puddle, man. You can make analogies between anything you want, but that doesn’t ensure their clarity.

Well that all depends on the intelligence of the person you’re telling it to.

Petros makes mods, and the ethics of his group have been in question. SRW is going to host mods, and its ethics are in question. You don’t see the intertwined relationship there? There’s not enough of a connection there to draw conclusions on both as a whole?

MMGs ethics issues stem from a totally different place to SRWs. My opinion on SRW has not change for the better or for the worse because of MMGs involvement.
I don’t let one have a bearing on the other.
MMG aren’t running SRW and SRW aren’t changing anything for the worse because of MMG. If they change something for the better, then thats a good thing.
You’re putting 2 and 2 together here and getting 5 mate.

Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles could see that. Sorry you can’t.

Now who’s making the musician analogies ? Don’t tell me what I can and can’t see. I just happen to disagree with your way of forming an opinion of SRW.

I see the point you’re trying to make. And it makes zero sense. Is that any more clear?

Very. I can see now how narrow visioned you are. But hey, you are entitled to your opinion, and if SRW does work out to be not the big evil it’s alleged to be, then I hope you do stay well away from it as you claim you will.
I would want you to miss out on it for all the wrong reasons.
Obviously if SRW are unethical and whatever you want to call them, then I dont see how any part of that will relate to MMGs involvement. To me they are seperate entities (at least for now).

You can babble on all you want about independent thinking, about how MMG and SRW aren’t connected.

I didn’t say if they were or were not connected. I said I didn’t understand why your dislike or mistrust of SRW grew because MMG made a statement about them.
To me that was just MMG saying they were ok guys and not as bad as people think.
True or not that doesn’t change SRW’s M.O. If anything the community did that (I hope) with their boycott (which I agree was a necessary thing given the circumstances)

It will be gibberish to me. Petros Mak wrote a letter in support of SRW — two groups that I don’t trust one bit, aligning in public — and that’s quite enough of a connection for me.

Yeah all you need now is a sign affidavit from Satan to say he has 51% shares in SRW and you have the trifector (sp?).

CrippleHorse:
F1Racer
I think that the only correct analogy starring Michael Jackson and Bin Landen would have occured if Jackson went to Afghanistan before 9/11, shook hands with Landen, allready a wanted man, then talked to the press about him being an ok peson and then 9/11 took place .

Aah but I would have had to mistrust Jackson in the first place then dislike Bin Laden even more because Jackson made friend with him :D
We all know 9/11 (or 11/9 if you live anywhere else in the world, other than the US, where the dates are the correct way around :happy:) was Bush’s fault not Jacksons. Iraq was Jacksons fault wasn’t it ? Which is why he was bumped off by a middle-eastern hitman.

Can I just ask.. hypothetically.. if SRW offered a great service which meant hassle free online play, great organisation, league races, one-click install etc.. and they just wanted to have a way to cover their operating costs in return for providing this community with this service, something it can quite clearly benefit from, is that a bad thing ? Would people object to that ?
If you’re covering your server and running costs, how commercial does that make you ?
I’m in no way saying this is what SRW are doing or want to do, just if people would have an issue to covering something like that.

Well, then they could come out and say so, not hide and let everybody speculate about what they are up to. If they are so intent on making a service for the sim racers, it cant be that hard to just inform people.

F1Racer: But hey, you are entitled to your opinion, and if SRW does work out to be not the big evil it’s alleged to be, then I hope you do stay well away from it as you claim you will.
I would want you to miss out on it for all the wrong reasons.

You can count on it. There’s almost nothing at SRW that I can’t get at NoGrip, RSC, the modding group’s Web site or other sources.

Plus with the exile of modders from SRW, that’s going to be the most reliable way to get mods and add-ons for at least the near future.

F1Racer:
Can I just ask.. hypothetically.. if SRW offered a great service which meant hassle free online play, great organisation, league races, one-click install etc.. and they just wanted to have a way to cover their operating costs in return for providing this community with this service, something it can quite clearly benefit from, is that a bad thing ? Would people object to that ?
If you’re covering your server and running costs, how commercial does that make you ?
I’m in no way saying this is what SRW are doing or want to do, just if people would have an issue to covering something like that.

My issue isn’t with the commercial aspects. Hell, I’m an iRacing member!

My issue is with the lack of transparency and communication with the sim racing community, and SRW’s initial response saying the community should have asked them these questions instead of SRW offering initial transparency.

It’s pretty common practice when opening a business to inform the customer of your intent, not vice-versa.

F1Racer
You’re right wondering where this “non-commercial” view collapses, it’s proper thinking to seek consistency in any view. Obviously, there’s no clear barrier, that’s why efforts of this kind opt for ad and donation-based ways of covering expenses.

Regarding 1-click install, am I the only one who would detest this thing becoming the norm? We should be able to select not to include movies, menus and files that replace other files if we want to. It’s just better for everyone to show novices how to install things with a guide.

Those one-click installs should include a one-click, complete uninstall, too, for the sake of the sim community. There’s nothing worse than a mod that installs with a single executable file but doesn’t an uninstaller, and they’re out there.

That’s why I prefer to install mods compressed in the .rar format because I can see the entire file directory breakdown of where the mod files are being installed, which makes deleting the mod MUCH easier without an uninstaller.

Paul Kelly:

My issue is with the lack of transparency and communication with the sim racing community, and SRW’s initial response saying the community should have asked them these questions instead of SRW offering initial transparency.

That’s it ? All this dislike and distrust you have for them comes just from this ?
I agree that them saying the community should have asked them is a totally stupid thing to say, but lets face it, even if they weren’t as transparent as maybe we would have liked they certainly wouldn’t have been able to do anything with the community mods without us finding out eventually.
I also agree that their communication should have been better which wouldn’t have been too difficult.
On the flipside I also think things have been a little blown out of proportion in regards to how people judge them despite it all.
Clearly SRW judged things a bit wrong and maybe they are continuing to do so but at least the boycott opened their eyes a bit and changed things. So thats a good thing.
Forgive me if I’m trying to look for a positive angle on this until I see there isn’t one. But maybe SRW can fix this and put things on track in a way we can all agree too.
If so, I don’t see a downside to what they’re trying to do.

F1Racer: Clearly SRW judged things a bit wrong and maybe they are continuing to do so but at least the boycott opened their eyes a bit and changed things. So thats a good thing.

Has it? As I understand, SRW still offers mods for download from mod groups that asked for their work to be removed from SRW until those groups could determine SRW’s business practices.

What I find funny in all this that I and MMG get blamed for doing something all of you should have done in the first place.

My first post in the boycott thread stated “IF the rumors are in fact true that SRW would be earning money from our mods, I would not support it. But we should not judge without finding out the facts.”

Everyone was so eager to jump in alongside CTDP and GSMF to boycott SRW, when neither of them even emailed SRW to ask them what they were about, instead, they began a whole boycott rumor based on assumptions, and everyone followed like a flock of sheep.

What did I do? I wanted to find out the info for myself. I contacted SRW and said. Having seen the rumors going on and the initial boycott article, I wanted to take the time to find out from you guys at SRW what is going on and what you have planned. As a Modder that wants mods to be free forever, and as a community member who enjoys playing mods myself, I wanted to have more clarification on how SRW would run.

SRW immediately replied back within 24 hours with a long and detailed email about what they planned on doing. All of the features that existed on rFcentral would remain FREE for all to use, the subscription based service would exist for those who want to access high speed servers, new content made by SRW themselves such as the one click install, web based telemetry, race events with huge prizes, high speed download servers and more to come.

Finding out this info I asked SRW if it was ok to post that info online, to show it to the community so they could get an official detail from SRW themselves, since no one else decided to do that. In fact, I’m being blamed for being the only person on the net who has contacted them and made their statements available to public.

The service they are giving away in their subscription form for me doesn’t sound so bad. Over 90% of mod groups support download hosting sites such as rapidshare, megaupload, fileplanet, where you have to pay a subscription to host your files permanently and not have them deleted after 90 days of not being used. SRW provides the hosting for mod groups for FREE, mod groups don’t have to pay for the mods to be hosted on their high speed servers, only the downloaders have to pay to access the high speed servers, FREE members get to access the normal speed servers of which rFactorcentral had very few and didn’t support every single mod/track.

The reason why I posted the news article with the clarification is because I felt people were jumping onto the bashing bandwagon without even attempting to acquire the facts from the developers themselves. Instead, they follow rumors spread by groups instigating the boycott.

In all fairness also, virtualr.net should not be blamed here. Montoya is entitled to his view and his ideals, virtualr.net has always been an unbiased site, and what he did was post a news article of groups wanting to boycott. This news article posted now does take the thing a bit further, but its his choice to support or not to and he is entitled to it. Who should be blamed is the mod groups that instigated the boycott without even attempting to acquire facts from the developers. And I know they will come here and say they tried, but thats bullshit, they didn’t try, they spread misinformation and those who have seen SRW currently see that its not the evil entity it was made out to be. Unfortunately virtualr.net being an unbiased site as it is was caught in the middle of modders wanting to show their ego rather then do it the right way and get FACTS. Don’t blame Montoya or virtualr.net for that.

All the years we as a community have always wanted to have one home for all modding, one place to be able to find all resources for all games, so that we don’t have to traverse through 100 different sites to find stuff with broken links half the time. We’ve always wanted competitions and service that would give back to us the community that supports so much. SRW is trying to provide that and instead of being supported to see how it will stem out, its being shunned.

Its not that its being shunned thats the problem. The problem is the way its being shunned. Many of you are content to shun it simply because a mod group wishes to shun it, you will willingly follow a groups decision instead of finding out the FACTS yourself. What is that about? You all have eyes, you all have brains, why do you allow yourselves to be led like sheep by someone else’s words? If someone bags something, why don’t you take the time to find out if their reasons are merited? There are always multiple sides in every story, if you choose to take only one side, then you choose to be naive and to be led like a lamb in the slaughterhouse. Common people, you’re all mature adults, send an email, ask your own questions, say things like, “Hey, I heard this about you guys and would like clarification.” GET YOUR OWN ANSWERS. For gods sake, you are not all incapable of doing so.

Very interesting post, Petros. Thanks for it.

Let’s hope people “will learn someday”, to refer to the title of the news, that you should be quite certain of your facts before opening a war. Looks a bit like Irak, this thing. W. Bush everywhere saying “Evil, Evil ! Nuk’em!” lol

;)

Petros_Mak:
Everyone was so eager to jump in alongside CTDP and GSMF to boycott SRW, when neither of them even emailed SRW to ask them what they were about, instead, they began a whole boycott rumor based on assumptions, and everyone followed like a flock of sheep.

Well if you would’ve followed the discussion from the beginning you would have noticed that SRW were asked about the commercial event and they didn’t give any definite answer to that question. Yes the boycott started without a clear answer but it’s not the modders fault that this answer wasn’t given. And as we see on the screenshot the assumptions about commercial events using community made mods were right.

Your first post on the boycott issue started with:

Petros_Mak:
I myself can say that I have not supported the idea since I read the announcement on rFc when it was first announced. I had already stated to quite a few who had asked me about it that I would not be supporting it.
Groups like CTDP, GSMF, Virtua_lm, IDT, MMG and all the rest spend years of their lives producing mods for free, without being paid, to create mods for the community to enjoy for free. Sites like rFcentral take the credit for our hard work through us modding groups advertising ourselves through their site, allowing them to at some point sell themselves out and earn money through our traffic.

also in this post:

Petros_Mak:
I am glad to see teams like CTDP, GSMF and others coming up and standing up for modding’s free rights. Whether we as groups get along with each other or not, we are all driven by the same passion and dedication to the real life series of which we try to represent through our mods, and standing together to ensure that modding remains free is a noble cause. I am happy to join in with MAK-Corp and MMG in not supporting SRW or any venture of this type to come in the future.

And now your blaming other modders to follow CTDP and GSMF? Maybe you should check your old postings before writing things like that stupid statement where you cite from the mail that EVERY modder got or this recent posting.

I was so ready for someone to post that, which again goes back to my main point. Its interesting that you only post that comment I made which suits your rant but not my other in the same article which says…

Petros_Mak: Petros_Mak
August 8th, 2009 at 04:09

Until we all actually find out what Simraceway plan and how they plan to implement their site and league, there’s not much we can say right now. Groups are boycotting from the knowledge they currently have of simraceway, but yet, simraceway has yet to contact any group (to my knowledge) about using their mods or detail their plans to any group. It may come around later on that when they do this, groups will see the entire situation was a mute point and support it. At the end of the day, its not like every single FREE racing league will close down due to simraceway, free leagues will still exist, our mods will not be subject to be used only by simraceway unless the mod group giving them rights is that stupid to give them complete rights. With the current knowledge we have of them, yes we’re boycotting, but lets wait and see how it all unfolds and what we’ll be told by simraceway when approached and see how it turns out.
In any case, this is not a modding or community killer unless the big teams sell off their mod rights to simraceway. If they don’t do that, modding will still continue around the net with just one extra league called simraceway and no one will feel the brunt.

As you can see, even then I had stated that we need need to see what simraceway is all about before we go judging. Even I was going by the assumptions made by groups like CTDP and GSMF as my BELIEF was that being big mod groups as they are, they would have contacted SRW before starting the boycott. Having THEN found out that they didn’t and it was all their assumptions, and getting the clarifications from SRW as I did, I changed my mind as any person would.

Petros_Mak:
I was so ready for someone to post that, which again goes back to my main point. Its interesting that you only post that comment I made which suits your rant but not my other in the same article which says…

Then first of all don’t say that this was your FIRST posting on that topic. It clearly wasn’t. Also it’s interesting how quick you changed your opinion on that issue to almost the opposite of that in your first posting.

Petros_Mak:
As you can see, even then I had stated that we need need to see what simraceway is all about before we go judging. Even I was going by the assumptions made by groups like CTDP and GSMF as my BELIEF was that being big mod groups as they are, they would have contacted SRW before starting the boycott. Having THEN found out that they didn’t and it was all their assumptions, and getting the clarifications from SRW as I did, I changed my mind as any person would.

You still don’t get as many others here: modders tried to talk with SRW! But they didn’t seem want to talk with the modders. So why should the modders run after them? The modders tried to communicate with them. SRW just reacted after the boycott. So don’t blame the people that YOU followed before you quickly changed your mind when SRW missed the opportunity to talk.

And why should the creators of the mods contact the site that want’s to show their work on a site with a commercial backroung, modify them (1-click-installer) etc. They also don’t give modders access to their work and don’t respond on requests to give them access or remove their work from their site. And still the modders are the one who should contact SRW?

So how many mails should one write before he has contacted the new grand masters of our community enough?

Look erale. Not to go back and forth here. The main point of the entire thing was that people can email and find out for themselves rather then believe something because someone says its that way. My first post I wrote under the belief that CTDP and GSMF either/or had acquired FACTS before starting the boycott. I also wanted to stress out with my next post that of course if what CTDP and GSMF claim is to be true, then of course we shouldn’t support, but it turned out that it wasn’t.

Remember that SRW is not yet fully released, they can’t give access or remove anything until the entire database is completely transfered over. Doing so would mean the destruction of the entire ability to move over the database efficiently and any MySQL programmer will tell you the exact same. They need to first transfer everything, make sure it works, then they can start deleting what people don’t want. They can’t do it in mid process. If the site is done 100% and they still don’t listen, then yes crucify them, but don’t do it now. Again its all these assumptions. They are not listening, its not that they are not listening, does anyone even try to think of it from their perspective? no, all you care about is YOUR perspective.

The REALITY of the matter is that until everything is transfered over, they cannot delete anything cause that will pretty much destroy the entire database. It would mean having to re-code the entire MySQL structure and data to have different values due to the deleted values missing. Its a lot faster to simply add it all to the new site, then remove things once that is done.

Finding out FACTS as I did, I decided to steer away from the boycott. I began to question those who instigated it from the info I got from the developers. Who would you believe? A developer? or someone going about by assumptions?

Its like someone coming out saying that Simbin will make their next sim pay2play, Simbin saying they won’t, and the community instigating a boycott on simbin because some person decided to go on rumors.

Sure, SRW’s way of portraying itself and showing what its all about wasn’t done so perfectly, but they are doing something new, and they are not perfect, no one is, they will make mistakes, but its not about the mistakes the make, its how they conduct themselves to make those mistakes right, and so far, they have done nothing wrong.

You say modders shouldn’t have to run after them? They run after every single person who uses a single piece of content for their mods, and they won’t run after someone who THEY THEMSELVES clain to be making money off THEIR mods? pfft, come on man, thats total bullshit. If they don’t want to run after them, then thats plain LAZY. I at least had the decency to not only find out what they were about, but make it public so people could get their view.

I’m not telling people to support SRW, but I’m also not telling them to not support it. What I AM saying is. People need to make their own choice based on facts THEY acquire, not things written on the net. Anyone can say anything on the net, if you want facts, go to the company/person/project directly and get facts for yourself and judge for yourself.

In my situation, I emailed, I found out, I changed my mind. Quite a few others have changed their minds from having received access, others don’t change their minds. Everyone is entitled to their oppinion. You think that anyone who runs a group or a site is excempt to making their own choice? Whats wrong is when they try to make others blindly follow their choice, I have not done that, I have just released clarification and told people, “Get the facts yourselves and MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE!”

Petros_Mak:
Look erale. Not to go back and forth here. The main point of the entire thing was that people can email and find out for themselves rather then believe something because someone says its that way. My first post I wrote under the belief that CTDP and GSMF either/or had acquired FACTS before starting the boycott. I also wanted to stress out with my next post that of course if what CTDP and GSMF claim is to be true, then of course we shouldn’t support, but it turned out that it wasn’t.

Well you said what CTDP and GSMF claim wasn’t true. I say it is. Because I tried to talk with SRW. I even try to talk with them now but still I don’t get an answer. Like many other modders out there… And I don’t count a PR mail that every modder got and was just blabla as an answer.

Petros_Mak:
The REALITY of the matter is that until everything is transfered over, they cannot delete anything cause that will pretty much destroy the entire database. It would mean having to re-code the entire MySQL structure and data to have different values due to the deleted values missing. Its a lot faster to simply add it all to the new site, then remove things once that is done.
Finding out FACTS as I did, I decided to steer away from the boycott. I began to question those who instigated it from the info I got from the developers. Who would you believe? A developer? or someone going about by assumptions?

What facts? On sunday it was possible to reach some mods of boycotting modders through the MOTY list on the page. After this blogpost was made they’re not reachable anymore from that list either. So they’re capable of “removing” mods really fast. You can still access their mod profile by adding the correct mod id in the url but you won’t get on the profile through the site itself. Also on the event list there were paid events that were using community mods. It’s funny how they could end up there as SRW NEVER intended to use them on their side.

Petros_Mak:
I’m not telling people to support SRW, but I’m also not telling them to not support it. What I AM saying is. People need to make their own choice based on facts THEY acquire, not things written on the net. Anyone can say anything on the net, if you want facts, go to the company/person/project directly and get facts for yourself and judge for yourself.
In my situation, I emailed, I found out, I changed my mind. Quite a few others have changed their minds from having received access, others don’t change their minds. Everyone is entitled to their oppinion. You think that anyone who runs a group or a site is excempt to making their own choice? Whats wrong is when they try to make others blindly follow their choice, I have not done that, I have just released clarification and told people, “Get the facts yourselves and MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE!”

No one told other modders to join the boycott. In the beginning some modders said that they don’t want their mods listed until some points are cleared. Then some others joined the first few modders but no one forced them too. Everyone had their reason to not support SRW.

Again I will say this… Race2play really doesn’t want to see SRW succeeding and they are using some people’s stupidity to try to get SRW in trouble BUT the dust will settle and everyone will enjoy a great SRW! Just think… what have you got to loose if SRW succeeds? Don’t be another ignorant sheep Tell me what in this life you got to loose??? Instead of coming with the ” my dick is bigger than yours!” mentality!

Some good points raised on both sides here. For me I remain cautious but optimistic. If SRW did get things sorted to a point where the community is happy (but it has to WANT to be happy first and not go around with blinkers on), then we could be onto something pretty cool.

If SRW don’t do things to appease the very community they need to succeed, then they will find themselves failing before they even get off the ground.
One thing I’m not going to do is dismiss it blindly. True, I am not a mod maker and as such have nothing at stake, but I think SRW would be pretty aware of the huge stink this community is able to create (rightly or wrongly), if SRW start using these mods for the wrong reasons and without the permissions of the makers.

If SRW show good intentions and a couple of the bigger mod groups decide its now ok to get on board, I think we would see a lot of others follow suit.

Its up to SRW to get it right and up to the community, especially the mod makers, not to dismiss SRW out of hand or make quick rushes to judgment without knowing all the facts first.

SRW’s main fault here is lack of communication. It shouldn’t have taken Petros to go and find out and post SRW’s response here. THEY should have done that. It’s not up to us to ask them.
I do think SRW’s intentions, not matter how badly carried out, are good and if the whole thing does get off the ground with all sides happy, it could be a very popular stomping ground for many of us.

Point taken about Race2play too felipe. There might be something in that but race2play’s position in all this has no effect on my opinion of SRW. I prefer to judge it for myself after taking in what I read and the points raised by prominent people and groups in the community.

I am optimistic.

I understand that those reactions were caused by the trauma of losing rFcentral, though, so I’m also optimistic about the fact that the community can still “behave” better and more rationnaly in the coming months.

Something about the so called facts:

At the very beginning SRW told something about paid races with community mods – like they did during the last months on rFactorcentral. When the modders announced the boycott, SRW suddenly said they never had planed such races. The preceding statement disappeared.

Now we have a list of paid races with community mods right in front of our eyes, so what are the words from SRW worth?

F1Racer: If SRW show good intentions and a couple of the bigger mod groups decide its now ok to get on board, I think we would see a lot of others follow suit.

I agree with this. But right now, the most visible mod group on board is one I don’t trust. Yes, I’ll admit I’m practicing guilt by association. But I simply don’t care for MMG and its condescending attitude toward the mod community.

I also still don’t appreciate SRW’s knee-jerk reaction/response to other mod groups’ attempts at contact only AFTER the boycott was organized. Many of the issues that erale listed also are troubling and suggest funny business going on behind the scenes.

So I will remain skeptical until proven otherwise. It would be a pleasant, welcome surprise if SRW could sway me.

[dd]Baule:

Now we have a list of paid races with community mods right in front of our eyes, so what are the words from SRW worth?

Well have any of them taken place yet ? Or is that just a web layout from as it was before the boycott ? I don’t think it’s gone live yet.

Also if they are keeping it that way, then apart from a mod boycott which isn’t going to stop races going ahead, what are the modders intending to do about it ?
They each need to write to SRW insisting clarification on what their mod is going to be used for or instant removal of it from their site.
Modders to have their rights to their work. Its an art work and they have as much rights to their work as I would if I painted a picture of Senna at Monaco.

The ISI rFactor End User License Agreement (EULA) can be reviewed here:

http://www.rFactor.net/legal.html

Of particular interest to me is whether SRW has secured written consent from ISI to “Exploit, or permit the exploitation of, this Software or any of its parts commercially”.

The issue regarding the potential commercial use of community mods by SRW may be moot if SRW conducts business in violation of the ISI rFactor EULA and ISI delivers SRW a cease and desist order.

Paul Kelly:
I agree with this. But right now, the most visible mod group on board is one I don’t trust. Yes, I’ll admit I’m practicing guilt by association. But I simply don’t care for MMG and its condescending attitude toward the mod community.

But to be fair you are talking about an attitude that was from a while ago and involved people who are no longer with MMG. Also its kinda unfair to blame an entire group for 1 or 2 peoples attitudes which was only over the mod releases.
Other people have accused them of ripped content etc. talking as if all their mods were like that and that issue was only over 1 mod if I recall.
The 2007 mod had nothing ripped.
Also the above posts from Petros are fine in themselves and no more condescending than anyone elses. There is a lot of grudge bearing about this community and no room being left for people to repair the damage.

I also still don’t appreciate SRW’s knee-jerk reaction/response to other mod groups’ attempts at contact only AFTER the boycott was organized.

Yes it was a shame that it took a boycott for them to react. But really maybe a boycott could have been avoided if people had approached them for clarification seeing as SRW weren’t forthcoming enough to do so themselves (even though they should have).
However, aren’t you glad that they did react ? If I was a mod maker I would have much preferred a knee-jerk reaction to no reaction. So I suppose that the mere fact that they did react it a positive thing.

So I will remain skeptical until proven otherwise. It would be a pleasant, welcome surprise if SRW could sway me.

As you wish. Its not a bad thing to play it cautious given the events.

The biggest isuue is that they are gonna use mods and tracks from other authors to make profit in their payment leagus or payment servers or payment memberships.
so thats would not be legal unless they agree with the authors,. by paying money to them for their mods to be able to use them in their payment site , servers, or leagues. or if the author gives them permission to do it for no money

erm… yes we know all that.

When you say ‘are gonna’, well they haven’t yet and the do know the issues the mod makers have with that so maybe they won’t. But IF they do go ahead using mods for paying races without permission then its up to the maker of that mod to jump on them like a tonne of bricks.

I find it difficult to understand how anyone could possibly argue against the modders on this. It’s their work, not yours, and not SRW’s. SRW is LEGALLY REQUIRED to obey all take-down requests of scratch-made work they did not create. How hard is that to compute? They don’t own that content! Period! Regardless of what some of these armchair warriors think, this work is protected by copyright law, and SRW can be sued if they do not comply with all take-down requests of scratch-made content.

Who’s arguing against the modders ?

Not me.

We’re just giving another point of view which is essentially: wait and see.

Not speaking “against” anyone here, am I ?

Nope. I think some people assume because we are not shooting down SRW completely in flames that we must therefore be against the modders. Its that George W Bush ‘you are either with us or against us’ mentality.

I know one thing for sure. I take sides with the modders. But if the modders are not going to listen to reason, providing there is some to be listened to, then thats their own lookout.
If they want to be up themselves so much that they are blinded with what could be moulded into an opportunity, that would be a shame.
I guess my point is what I said before – that they shouldn’t be so quick to judge or dismiss things out of hand. Get all the facts first and don’t jump.

But if Im choosing between a group of hard working individuals who tirelessly churn out free stuff to feed our sim racing addiction and have been doing so for ages, against a newcomer on the scene who wants to introduce money into the equation and have already got up the modders noses for various reasons notwithstanding that they seemingly were intending to use their mods without asking first…. the choice of sides is easy.

However this isn’t down to taking sides. Its about reasoning it all out and trying to turn this SRW mess (which admittedly they got themselves into by maybe not going the right way with things) into something that looks like it can be positive for everyone.

Although I am fine arguing against modders if I disagree with them or think they might not be seeing things as clear as they think.
Right now, I think the boycott was the right thing, I think it had an effect and I also think it put SRW in their place and unless they’re stupid they must know they can’t start using these mods in conjunction with money.

Some people talk here as if its something that’s unsolvable or has no light at the end of the tunnel. Bad deed done and that’s that. To be fair, no bad deed has been done either really. It was stopped before it got started and to date there have been no paying races with these boycotted mods despite what their website might still advertise.
I hope SRW do fix things and I also hope the mod makers are not giving up on SRW quite yet. There looks to be potential there and it just has to play out right with neither side getting on their high horse or having an ego trip.

SRW will go down as the “FOTY 2009″ addon – that is the “Fail of the year” award from the community. Heck, I’ve still yet to get in. Would be wise to have the site ready and accounts transferred before you have your countdown that has been up for a few months hit zero.

It’s just…. Sad. But, what do you expect from a commercial non community group? Fact of the matter is they don’t know the politics within the sim, and it’s only natural that it takes them time to learn what they can and can’t do within the community and save face.

Signed,

Waiting.

Nice to see some well argumented posts on a hot & emotional topic F1Racer.

I can see why some here want SRW to change, but why would anyone want them to fail?? Who on earth would benefit from that ??

I can also understand Montoya initially calling to arms, but some here are taking things way too far and have ended up so focused on what they are against that they forget what they are for. This is ultimately a debate about whats good for simracing as a genre and about “guiding” SRW towards what most here percieve as the right path, not about personal grudges… right?
Don’t dig the trenches too deep

EmptyBox:
SRW will go down as the “FOTY 2009″ addon – that is the “Fail of the year” award from the community. Heck, I’ve still yet to get in. Would be wise to have the site ready and accounts transferred before you have your countdown that has been up for a few months hit zero.
It’s just…. Sad. But, what do you expect from a commercial non community group? Fact of the matter is they don’t know the politics within the sim, and it’s only natural that it takes them time to learn what they can and can’t do within the community and save face.
Signed,
Waiting.

See this is just the kind of post I’m talking about.
First sentence, already calling it a fail and then saying ‘I have still to yet to get in’. (oh and its not an addon)
SRW aren’t even off the ground yet so how on Earth can it have failed ?
OK so theres a failure to get the accounts over in time but that could be anything from a glitch to a work overload thanks to the boycott :) You’re just making it sound like its failed fully and finally already when its really only in one area and that probably won’t be for long.
Just need some perspective here.

With that attitude it surely would fail and you might find that despite SRW’s initial approach, its a bright opportunity missed.
Then the post states “Fact of the matter is they don’t know the politics within the sim”. OK lets disregard the fact that the sentence makes no sense.
How do you know what they do and do not know ? You think SRW is going to buy into rfc and organise all this without know a little of what makes the cogs go around ? That would take more stupidity that even those who are dead against them give them credit for. I don’t see that being the case.
The whole post smacks of ‘this is our community, you are an outsider and if you want to join our gang you have to learn our rules’.
There is a difference between a gang and a community.
I know it sounds like Im biggin’ up SRW but not really. I just think they screwed up a little but deserve a chance to right things. Some people just don’t wanna give that chance.
I have hope more than faith that they can correct the issues with the community. This community is short on organised features like this. But, I guess the community has to want it first.

Why would anyone want srw to fail. Rfc is not coming back. Hopefully a week from now when were all in we will see if it lives up to expectations or not. Until then sleep tight.
I think we need to lock this one up. Going in circles.

Face it, if you have a deliberate countdown that was up for around 50 days (I first saw it around 56 IIRC) atleast and you completely fail to migrate everything over before you “open” your new site, you’ve quite clearly have done wrong. They easily could’ve just posted that they are having delays and push the countdown clock back. But they simply didnt. They made it sound as on DDay rFc was out, SRW was in. Honestly, I just want to get in there to see the layout, as it does look interesting, but there is nothing new for me. 1 Click install? Bah. I like to know what I’m doing. And yes, this is a double standard. This is a COMMERCIAL group – not a guy doing it in his freetime.

And it might as well be an addon- personally, I don’t use rFc anymore, and likely won’t use SRW. When something worth a darn comes out I’ll find out, I don’t need umpteen thousand garbage mods – which, is truly what these sites proliferate. But, oh well.

There are politics within the community – if you can’t see that your blind. It’s all very touchy – its a fluid situation, changing from time to time. Perhaps if they had a second chance they would’ve seeked out talking to the modders rather than waiting for Petros to contact them. ;)

If your going to someones house, don’t you think you should call to see if their at home? Same thing happened here. They are the ones who opened up the can of worms, not us.

If your going to be part of the community its YOUR responsibility to learn how it works, not ours to hold your hand crossing the street. ESPECIALLY as an outside commercial group. This whole thing smells of corporate backtracking.

That being said, I will try it out (if) I get the chance to, if only to poke my head around. It’s not blacklisted or nothing, but they did fail miserably.

You really think they have a clue how this community works – yet they seemed to have burnt the bridges a wee bit to soon.

EmptyBox:
There are politics within the community – if you can’t see that your blind.

Within the community yes, but not within the sim, which is what you wrote and why I said it didn’t make sense and not because you think I was blind.

If you think I don’t know how this community works after all my time in it you’re seriously mistaken.

Anyway, I’m done with this saga. Lets just see how the next chapter in the book gets played out.

SRW, well thanks a bunch. I dont know about you but I was keen to see paid for racing, as long as modders gave consent of course. I wanted all they have promised, as I have been bombarded by them by email about all the exclusive features that were on site for you to use, my garage, one clickinstall, telemetry, racing stats against other users, mod control, controller control and all sorts of other “features” including an “SRW” version of GTR2 which imo is simply rubbish due to incompatability with plugins such ad XD hud by Yako. I am a paid up pro member of SRW and what for! The Pro features were supposed to be opening on 1st oct but I have yet to see the difference between a pro member and a casual user except of course the free copy of GTR2 which is modded so that the server client is fixed to the SRW servers only! there I have said my piece. A very disgruntled G.