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I’m very disappointed in SRT whoring themselves to Sim Raceway. Thank you for pointing out what the unethical bastards are doing.

Screw SRT. Not watching it again until they stop taking sponsorship from these parasites.

“To completely ignore the content creators is very questionable to begin with, using it to advertise their service is straight up rude though….”

Word!

GSMF doesn’t deserve that.

90.50 – way to go though. Not surprising ;)

UncleChuckle: I’m very disappointed in SRT whoring themselves to Sim Raceway.

same here and I add to that iRacing and MS! iRacing for the biased reviews and MS for accepting their “gifts” for scoring high Forza 3! SRT has become BS!

Only part worth in their shows now are steering wheels comparison but paying lots of attention for any contamination!

Is SRT that show where every episode is just a camera alternating between a giant pair of tits?

I don’t know why people thought Clint Howard knew anything about racing games in the first place…

I think virtualr.net are trying to throw mud at all other sim sites just to become the best, It’s a shame that virtualr has become a politicaly driven site as I think it was ok but now i’m not so sure.

in part I agree and in part I disagree but Montoya needs to stop this SRW talk!

Crowbar: I think virtualr.net are trying to throw mud at all other sim sites just to become the best, It’s a shame that virtualr has become a politicaly driven site as I think it was ok but now i’m not so sure.

Well, Simraceway broke the rule of modding again.

This place is just reporting news. It’s not his fault that this is what’s happening in the sim world.

If someone’s favorite sim doesn’t win then the site is biased, but rFactor owns the top spot in the Top Sim Cars segment and Microsoft doesn’t have a wheel in the 5 wheel shootout. What’s up with that?

Maybe, just maybe Forza 3 is better than Shift. Seems like Metacritic compiled 50 plus reviews and the average score is much higher for Forza 3, so could it be that Forza 3 is better than Shift?

And maybe iRacing is terrific? Nah, can’t be. Impossible…

Everything’s a conspiracy if it’s not working out to your favor.

Lincoln Miner: If someone’s favorite sim doesn’t win then the site is biased, but rFactor owns the top spot in the Top Sim Cars segment and Microsoft doesn’t have a wheel in the 5 wheel shootout.What’s up with that?Maybe, just maybe Forza 3 is better than Shift.Seems like Metacritic compiled 50 plus reviews and the average score is much higher for Forza 3, so could it be that Forza 3 is better than Shift?And maybe iRacing is terrific?Nah, can’t be.Impossible…Everything’s a conspiracy if it’s not working out to your favor.

maybe this isnt just about forza vs shift and maybe just maybe forza doesnt deserve to be 8th on the list top sim cars of all time above the likes of the subbie ferrari 575 formula bmw, nah cant be. Impossible.
But i surpose its a how you define a sim, i just hate it when i get pestering fanboys going forza is the most realistic sim because isr said so. Dont get me wrong well i dont really care if you do but i do think forza is an exceptional game. So im not really against isr, i am a bit though they put forza on the list of top sim cars which pretty much says this is one of the most realistic sims of all time, you dont have to put it there, people buy it thats why there doing it. but you hypocrites saying saying srt can say what they like you dont have to agree, well i can to and you dont have to agree.

Oh yes, please do stand behind those metacritic scores that drag shift down from actiontrip and eurogamer – the ones about how it sucks because it’s not a NFS game like undercover or most wanted, and the guy who reviewed it using the external views and then complained the controls were twitchy :)

I don’t know, I think it’s one of those games like Test Drive Unlimited where the real review was of the reviewers – who was actually paying attention to the game and who had already typed up their review from reading the outside of the box. It’s wonderful that a game like Forza 3 can ship with essentially no tyre model, no suspension model and no road surface model, and as long as people are expecting a sim … it’s a sim! Of course, how obvious :)

djotefsoup: It’s wonderful that a game like Forza 3 can ship with essentially no tyre model, no suspension model and no road surface model, and as long as people are expecting a sim … it’s a sim!Of course, how obvious :)

buh but it’s a sim and tops SRT list! may I repeat it myself

t’s wonderful that a game like Forza 3 can ship with essentially no tyre model, no suspension model and no road surface model, and as long as people are expecting a sim … it’s a sim!Of course, how obvious :)

djotefsoup: It’s wonderful that a game like Forza 3 can ship with essentially no tyre model, no suspension model and no road surface model, and as long as people are expecting a sim … it’s a sim!Of course, how obvious :)

buh but it’s a sim some will swear and it tops SRT list! may I repeat it myself…

It’s wonderful that a game like Forza 3 can ship with essentially no tyre model, no suspension model and no road surface model, and as long as people are expecting a sim … it’s a sim!Of course, how obvious :)

Wow… I don’t think I have seen so much rubbish posted in so few posts.

Forza Vs Shift. Neither game is a full sim. And personally I beleive Forza is a more accurate racing game than NFS which I thought was terrible. The cars snap into a drift VERY easily which is very telling of the physics. But that’s just my opinion.

As for SRT biased… Come on folks, just because they don’t agree with your point of view that does not make the biased. They clearly highly rate iRacing as do most people who have used it, it’s an excellent sim. I hope those who were claiming bias above have all tried it.

I did think their review of Forza was a little gushing, but to be honest I don’t think SRT is big enough for MS to care about their review. It’s niche program for a niche market (PC sim racing) however at the end of their day, a review is little more than someones opinion and weather you agree with it or not their opinion is just as valid as yours, and if they think Forza is that good, thats great.

It’s pretty pathetic to accuse a reviewer of not playing a game properly or being bribed for a good review just because you don’t agree with what they said.

SRT is a bussiness and the are just worried about money and that some companies give to them free games, stuff, seats…anyway, I think Virtualr.net do not need to “promote” this show anymore. You are doing a favor to this guys, this site receive like 8000 visits per day, please do not promote more that show on this site.

Crowbar: I think virtualr.net are trying to throw mud at all other sim sites just to become the best, It’s a shame that virtualr has become a politicaly driven site as I think it was ok but now i’m not so sure.

Please think this through again. Why would I want to throw mud on anyone?

I really dig the InsideSimRacing stuff, they have their own category here and I think stuff like that iRacing visit is straight up brilliant. I´m in no shape or form competing with them as their specialty is reviews and feature stories, something VirtualR rarely does.

I don’t even really blame them for this situation. It’s not easy to keep up with the modding community about who does what, who gives permission to who and whatnot. Chances are they didn’t even know that GSMF requested that their stuff is removed from SRW.

And about them, VirtualR is not competing against them either. Do I organise online races and maintain a download database? No..

I`d be happy to support their approach if they only could do it in a legit way….which they are not doing. Put yourself in the shoes of the modders. You´ve created something brilliant (the Porsche is on top of SRT’s list for a reason) and tell someone he can’t use it for his business. It’s not important if you agree with their reasons or not, fact is that they have asked SRW to remove their mod and that needs to be respected.

Sure, you can say “What do I care?”, but please realise that this behavior will hurt us all in the long run. Do you think these issues motivate GSMF and other teams to keep on releasing free stuff? SRW is biting the hand that feeds us all and that’s why I think it’s important to keep on pointing out that their behaviour is frowned upon by the community. It has nothing to do with throwing mud.

It’s certainly not fair to slag off SRT for the questionable ethics of Simraceway (home of the 1-click install).
I’m guessing SRT are not as aware as much as some people are to what Simraceway (home of the 1-click install) get up to with regard to the permissions scandal.

The fact that they are sponsored by Simraceway (home of the 1-click install), doesn’t make SRT bad. They aren’t the ones doing anything wrong.
Thats like slagging off ING for being with Renault during the Piquet scandal.

SRT does need to get more back to simming though and off those console games. The ‘S’ in their name is a clue.

I’m very disappointed with virtualr, continues to ignore the news of our mods that I send via email thousands times. This is unfair and makes virtualr a dictatorship site… I’m very sorry but this ‘thinking way’ is not better of srw
Cosm1 from RPMT

ok first you’re off topic and secondly, just because your mods have not been put here (for whatever reason) suddenly its a dictatorship ?

heh, kind of an over-reaction don’t you think. Montoya can put whatever he wants on his own site. Therefore he can also leave out what he wants too. We’re are just visitors here, not co-owners.
Maybe email him to ask him why instead of airing your dirty laundry in public like this.

Dictatorship? Then every single blog out there is run by a dictator as they all follow the same principle of one user being responsible for the content.

I get loads of news items via mail every day and I have to filter what I post and what not, otherwise the site would turn out to be a big mess with loads of content that no one cares about.

You have to trust me to judge wheter or not is something worth to be posted, as I´m always considering several aspects. Quality is one, legal issues are another. And to be frank, lying to me when being asked wheter or not your mod is legal/made with permission is not really helping your case.

hahahah I wonder where this will head to!!! I’ll continue watching this interesting discussion

Montoya: Dictatorship? Then every single blog out there is run by a dictator as they all follow the same principle of one user being responsible for the content.
I get loads of news items via mail every day and I have to filter what I post and what not, otherwise the site would turn out to be a big mess with loads of content that no one cares about.You have to trust me to judge wheter or not is something worth to be posted, as I´m always considering several aspects. Quality is one, legal issues are another. And to be frank, lying to me when being asked wheter or not your mod is legal/made with permission is not really helping your case.

Tell me WHEN I lied??????????????And WHEN you ask me about permission or legal issue????

I think you did a BIG mistake Montoya

I enjoyed this episode!

But it is very sad to see the reactions in the comments posted here.
http://thesituationist.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/tweedles1-by-marc-scheff_sm.jpg

Try to appreciate what both SRT and VirtualR are providing for the community.

Damn. I’m only 15 years old and its seems I’m more grown up than some of the older posters here….

Zenitchik: I enjoyed this episode!But it is very sad to see the reactions in the comments posted here.
http://thesituationist.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/tweedles1-by-marc-scheff_sm.jpgTry to appreciate what both SRT and VirtualR are providing for the community.

Someone’s finally speaking sense.

SRT most likely plug the hell out of Sim Raceway because they paid them a load of money to help keep the show going. Think about that before you instantly jump to a conclusion.

This is one of the better ISR episodes in a while, some very interesting stuff from the iR interview and I’m glad to see they still take an interest in the sim racing community.

VirtualR is also a great site for news – really easy to keep on top of all the new releases and I’m glad to see that this site is so successful. However it wont continue to be so successful when people keep making childish accusations every time they comment on something. Half the time I think this site would be better if there were no comments on anything.

I didn’t see the rule saying VirtualR had to be impartial, people are too sensitive in the world as it is.

Here’s another anti-complaint from me to cancel out negative comments about VirtualR and Montoya.

I don’t really mind VirtualR calling SRW on their mistakes. I don’t even mind them pointing out that they sponsor SRT (and by doing so, SRT endorses their sponsors practices). The only thing that bothers me is the slightly personal note that some of these posts seem to take. Some of the really early posts on this subject really tended to sound like personal attacks (founded or not).

I really look at VirtualR a valuable news source. To me, it seems, news organizations have to tread very carefully when it comes to editorializing. I’d rather Montoya just post the facts in the story and then either;

1. Add his personal comments to the comments section or
2. Create a separate, clearly marked editorial post.

I can very much understand his feelings on this matter. I would just rather see them organized in a different way.

Also, how about doing a dedicated story and allowing SRW to comment. Maybe an interview with one of the staff? This way VirtualR can present both sides and let the views decide. I’m pretty sure that the guys at SRW would welcome an interview. Don’t get me wrong, pull no punches with the questions. If they are in the wrong, let them hang themselves. Another good interview subject for this story might be one of the modding teams affected by this as well. That way, both sides are represented.

Just my opinion :)

Woh.. some harsh words about our show in here.. It’s all good.. we take the good with the bad.

To clarify something about the GSMF Porsche. Shaun and I have loved that car for a long time and it deserved to be on the list. Whether it’s hosted at RFC, SRW, Filefront, or wherever else, it doesn’t matter to us.

We had no idea about that mod team wanting the car removed from Simraceway and honestly.. we’ve stopped trying to keep up with that soap opera. Not one mod team has stepped up and told us their side of the story.. We get random posts on our You Tube shows, and I’ve called them out to discuss things with me in private, and no one has..

Who is the voice of the modding community ?? Who’s in charge here and who lays down the rules ?? I want him on the show to discuss this situation so that we can all race and put this crap behind us. Email me direct anytime to discuss this darin@insidesimracing.tv.. Or meet me on Skype.. My user name is dgangi11

Lastly.. It doesn’t matter who sponsors the show, Shaun and I will not change the format, or how we rate games, mods, hardware due to a sponsors pressure.. We don’t have a sponsor like that and never will. Without the sponosrs, the show would no longer exist.

But..without our viewers, who are even more important, we wouldn’t exist.. We will always remain honest and give OUR opinions..Thats what the show is all about. Anyone who knows me personally, knows I won’t sell out for anyone, or any price. I may wear your logo for a price, but I won’t change my values or opinion for it. Thats what our show is all about.. Mine and Shauns opinion.. If we change it for our sponsors, why have the show ?

Simraceway DID NOT ask us to put that car on the list. Shaun and I decided to put it there and it deserves to be at the top.. Should we remove it ??

Darin Gangi
Inside Sim Racing

My activity on VirtualR stop here. Nothing of my team will be show here.
Cosm1 from RPMT, Red Passion Modding Team

Also dear Montoya I want that all of our screenshots and racing news about our projects must be deleted from this site

Can someone explain me what’s the problem with simraceway? And why is Virtualr treated like that? It’s a bit ridiculous!

lol at all that,ISR take simracing to a serious and professional level,no matter if they have the same opinion as you or I ,they do the job very well and only give THEIR opinion,it’s the same when a great car magazine test a car,they have their opinion,and maybe your is not the same,who is wrong who is right? it’s a personal feeling, and cosm1,with all respect,why take your problems with montoya to a public thread(totally offtopic)instead of do it in private?TBH its a kid war…virtualR is great and keep the comunity up to date with the simracing news,montoya well done and thank you!

cosm1: Also dear Montoya I want that all of our screenshots and racing news about our projects must be deleted from this site

I really have no idea why you are this pissed off at me all of a sudden but okay, will do that.

@Chris

I´ll defintely will seperate editorial comments from the content in the future, thanks for pointing that out. I can assure you that this issue is nothing personal, I don’t even know the guys behind SRW… I just happen to be afraid about the modding community.

But like you said, I should work on my angle a bit – I agree.

@Darin

First off, I think it’s great that you take the time to reply here. Like I said, you guys aren’t really the ones to blame here and my posting wasn’t meant to sound that way at all. I know we all have to pay our bills and most of the readers/watchers understand that…

However, there isn’t really a single spokesperson for the modding community, that’s what makes it hard to follow. These teams all operate on their own so it is pretty hard to keep up with whats going on, especially if controversial issues are involved.

I find it amazing that people are still supporting/defending simraceway after they continue to ignore the wishes of the people who basically (for free) builds the foundation in their business model.

stabiz: I find it amazing that people are still supporting/defending simraceway after they continue to ignore the wishes of the people who basically (for free) builds the foundation in their business model.

100% agree

stabiz: I find it amazing that people are still supporting/defending simraceway after they continue to ignore the wishes of the people who basically (for free) builds the foundation in their business model.

Maybe because it doesn’t affect them personally ?
It’s not their fight.
It’s between the affected modders and SRW to sort it out really.
I wont stop visiting SRW because some mod is on there that the author doesn’t want there. I don’t condone that behaviour as I believe mod owners should have the say-so on where their mod is available, but if it’s not affecting me personally, I`ll still sign up to race and win something if I want to.

That’s the question, Why those guys do not remove all the that mods?? and why are there so many supportes of SRW?? Who knows, the bussines are bussines. Yeah you can win money with the work of other people and it doesnt even matter…

Everyone should let GSMF handle the matter. I had a mod hosted (civic cup) on SRW and after a few emails they did remove it. Maybe GSMF never contacted them. I doubt SRW frequent all 500 sim racing sites looking for people who don’t want their work hosted on their site. Its best to just let the two parties take care of the matter instead of causing this huge scene.

I swear this soap opera is getting really old really quick.

Great show.

Interesting news from iRacing – a free offline demo and even AI at some point in the future. I like it :)

Have all these modders that are so upset with SRW included a clear Terms of Use with their mods? I’ve certainly never seen one.

captain_underpants: Have all these modders that are so upset with SRW included a clear Terms of Use with their mods? I’ve certainly never seen one.

The point is: SRW make money with things they don’t have the licence for. Since this is illegal the modders don’t want any connection to SRW.

[dd]Baule:
The point is: SRW make money with things they don’t have the licence for. Since this is illegal the modders don’t want any connection to SRW.

Yeah well modders don’t have licences to reproduce GT, F1 or any other FIA sanctioned series either. True, the modders are not making money off it but we all know what a big mess of a grey area this is.

SRW can argue they are making their money based on the prizes they are being offered regardless of the mod that they use to do it. It would be hard to argue that the money is being made because of the mod. Who’s going to give money to someone to use a mod they probably already have and can use for free ?
It’s the service they offer with that mod thats the attraction.
But I do agree that SRW should individually ask each mod group for permission before using it on their site.
It also helps if modders include contact details in their readme’s. A lot don’t and I know this when I’ve wanted to render cars from some mods and I can’t find any contact info in the readme or anywhere and I have to find out from a friend of a friend who knows someone who might know on MSN.

F1Racer: Yeah well modders don’t have licences to reproduce GT, F1 or any other FIA sanctioned series either.

Yep, I’m sure many of the licensed car manufacturers, tracks or others with licensed material on a mod car or track have their own beef with the modders too, but they don’t post here… :-) ISI, Simbin, iRacing all pay for that content, but the modders don’t.

Those logo’s, cars, tracks etc are not public domain. Mods enhance products that do make money and/or keep people from spending money on new sims etc. I’m sure if modders started paying the cars and tracks for their licenses their checks would be cashed.

I guess if you like the Robin Hood stories you could convince yourself that the modders are only stealing from the big bad car manufacturers and the tracks owners are already rich etc, but tracks go out of business and so do sim companies etc. It’s the same logic with torrents. Some people think they are entitled to take for free whatever they can get.

Bottomline to me. Modders don’t pay a nickle to anyone for the licenses or copyrights etc, so I’d say there is more than a little gray area in this issue. I appreciate their labor of love, but I’m not allowed to give away Doors albums for free on CD just because I took the time to create the CD. It’s still Doors owned property.

Why should modders be able to create something with someone elses license and SRW shouldn’t be able to do the same thing? Neither are innocent here. It’s a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

Lincoln Miner: Bottomline to me. Modders don’t pay a nickle to anyone for the licenses or copyrights etc, so I’d say there is more than a little gray area in this issue. I appreciate their labor of love, but I’m not allowed to give away Doors albums for free on CD just because I took the time to create the CD. It’s still Doors owned property.Why should modders be able to create something with someone elses license and SRW shouldn’t be able to do the same thing? Neither are innocent here. It’s a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

Your analogy is very poor. Creating a model is not the same as copying a CD. The issue is – is it wrong to make a model (or paint a picture or take a photo) of a car and give it away for free. You may feel it is wrong, but its nothing like copying a CD. The equivalent of copying a CD would be someone making full size exact copies of say a Ferrari and giving them away.

ISI, Simbin, iRacing all pay for their content, because they are selling their games, and a major reason people will buy an F1 or NASCAR or FIA GT sim is because it is F1/NASCAR/FIA GT. This being the case, it is only fair that some of the money ISI, Simbin, iRacing make should go to F1/NASCAR/FIA GT.

Lincoln Miner:
Mods enhance products that do make money and/or keep people from spending money on new sims etc.

That’s actually a very good point.

F1Racer:
Yeah well modders don’t have licences to reproduce GT, F1 or any other FIA sanctioned series either.True, the modders are not making money off it but we all know what a big mess of a grey area this is.

Until now modding was tolerated by the licence owners, but now we have someone who’s making money with that stuff – that could attract the attention of some lawyers out there. Making money with these mods makes the grey area black – that can’t be good for the modding community.

DW: Your analogy is very poor. Creating a model is not the same as copying a CD. The issue is – is it wrong to make a model (or paint a picture or take a photo) of a car and give it away for free. You may feel it is wrong, but its nothing like copying a CD.

Great. Come up with an analogy you do like, but when someone creates a mod track or a mod car using licenses and copyrights they don’t own they take money away from anyone who could profit legally from those same tracks, cars, or licenses.

Sure they aren’t making money directly, but the people who use the mods now don’t need to spend money on cars or tracks or even sims, that have those cars or tracks, because the modder gave it away for free. Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Chevrolet, Mid-Ohio, Indianapolis, Nurburgring, ect now have their licences/copyrights diluted in the marketplace and less money is spent on them.

It only makes sense if you’re a Robin Hood fan. Modders are taking money from those cars/tracks/licenses/copyrights, but like I said, Mercedes isn’t going to post here.

People posting here spend their time bitching about SRW. They give the modders a free pass. Oh yeah, I forgot. Modders are Robin Hood.

[dd]Baule: Until now modding was tolerated by the licence owners, but now we have someone who’s making money with that stuff – that could attract the attention of some lawyers out there. Making money with these mods makes the grey area black – that can’t be good for the modding community.

Modders were tolerated only because the costs to legally go after them isn’t worth the hassle. Doesn’t mean it’s right. The people posting here negatively about SRW are Modders themselves or friends of modders.

I just don’t see the CFO of BMW spending much time on these forums complaining about modders. This is Lord of the Flies to them, so yeah it’s “tolerated” if you call not being taken to court “tolerated”.

Whether a modder does or doesn’t make money off of someone elses intellectual property, licenses or copyrights shouldn’t matter, but think about this…

How many modders own or are part of a website that does make money via advertising and benefits from the mods or the modders association, post replys etc in the forums.

SRW is making money, but many of the modders are making money for themselves or others too whether directly or indirectly.

SRW and the CFO of BMW, Nazareth, Milwaukee or Silverstone, don’t post on this forum, so it’s a bit one sided here with all the modders or friends of modders posting.

There are three sides if not more to this story though. Giving VirtualR or SRT grief over this issue is ridiculous though. At the very least, leave them out of it.

So what is your point, exactly? That modders “steal” from the big companies so they should not complain when someone else comes along and steal their stuff to make a profit? Thats a stretch – an old one too – considering the fact that the modders only pay is praise on the internet.

The stuff about free mods hurting sales is just bs, anyone her would buy a theoretical GTR3 in a heartbeat, no matter how many modders have made the tracks or cars beforehand. Modders can “only” enhance an existing product, and if Simbin stopped flogging that Race 07 franchise and made a new pc title with the Lizard engine who here would not buy? (Except those going on and on about all mods being illegal so they can feel better about downloading RaceX)

Whats next? Blaming mods for iRacings lowish subscriber base?

stabiz:Whats next? Blaming mods for iRacings lowish subscriber base?

Well why not ? It’s not impossible for someone to say, well I would have subcribed to iracing to race on xxxxx track, but I have it in rFactor and GTR2 so I don’t think I`ll bother paying for it.

Also I`ll bet there are people who love the Nordshleife but didnt buy GTR Evolution for it because someone converted it to rFactor.

There are many different angles you can come from.
rFactor made more sales and therefore ISI made more money because of the free mod base. But that’s what rF was designed to do. Look at rF’s longevity compared to other sims.

You can’t single the modders out as being all innocent and having all the rights in the world. It’s not that clear cut.

F1Racer: Well why not ? It’s not impossible for someone to say, well I would have subcribed to iracing to race on xxxxx track, but I have it in rFactor and GTR2 so I don’t think I`ll bother paying for it.Also I`ll bet there are people who love the Nordshleife but didnt buy GTR Evolution for it because someone converted it to rFactor.There are many different angles you can come from.rFactor made more sales and therefore ISI made more money because of the free mod base. But that’s what rF was designed to do. Look at rF’s longevity compared to other sims.You can’t single the modders out as being all innocent and having all the rights in the world. It’s not that clear cut.

+1,000,000

What people can do though is blame SRT and VirtualR.

Mods are free. Free is good. Websites that host mods advertise and make money. Hmmm, too confusing. Did I mention mods are free and free is good?

Hey, I’d like to buy ARCA racing. Oh wait, there is a free ARCA mod. Now I don’t need to buy ARCA, but wait that means the ARCA sim and licensee’s don’t make money. Too confusing. Did I mention mods are free and free is good?

That’s the way many people think on the interweb.

[dd]Baule:
The point is: SRW make money with things they don’t have the licence for. Since this is illegal the modders don’t want any connection to SRW.

My understanding is that the mods are still available for free at the site. If SRW were selling these mods, then it’d be a lot more cut and dried.

My point is, if the modders aren’t making it clear how they want their mods to be used or not used, then they can’t really complain when people take advantage, and someone will always take an advantage if they can legally get away with it. Maybe SRW feels that since modders aren’t demanding people ask for permission in writing, then they aren’t legally required to. Maybe if modders want to be treated professionally, they should stop acting like amateurs and at the very least compose a TOU to go with their mods.

Maybe having faith in humanity has served them well enough in the past, but IME, having faith that people will do the right thing is met with disappointment more often than not, especially when the Dollar is involved.

captain_underpants:
My point is, if the modders aren’t making it clear how they want their mods to be used or not used, then they can’t really complain when people take advantage

They DID, Some of them at least. Teams like GSMF or CTDP said clearly and unambiguous that they don’t want SRW to host their Mods or even events with them. The friendly SRW-team deleted the mods immediately from their website, and some weeks later they suddenly turn back again.

How can someone defend such morals? I don’t get it…

I regret even joining this discussion. F1Racer and Lincoln seems to be a good fit though.

[dd]Baule:
They DID, Some of them at least. Teams like GSMF or CTDP said clearly and unambiguous that they don’t want SRW to host their Mods or even events with them. The friendly SRW-team deleted the mods immediately from their website, and some weeks later they suddenly turn back again.How can someone defend such morals? I don’t get it…

I’m not defending SRW. What I’m saying is that there’s unscrupulous bastards around, and it’s up to the modders to protect themselves and their rights, if they have any, against such people. Maybe merely asking for SRW to remove mods doesn’t have the requisite legal weight, I don’t know, but you can be sure if SRW can find a loophole to exploit, and keep those mods up on the site, they will.

The whole modding thing seems to be a fairly confusing area, legally speaking. Just how many rights do modders have over a ‘creation’ that has been derived from other businesses intellectual property? It seems logical that all the hours of work that modders put in should count for something, but does it really in legal terms? Has this ever been tested?

Don’t get me wrong, I love the whole modding scene, and think games developers ignore the modding community at their peril. I just think that perhaps they shouldn’t start wailing too loudly about their ‘rights’ lest they discover they don’t actually have any. Or, if they do, that they get them down in writing BEFORE people like SRW start exploiting them.

[dd]Baule: CTDP

You’re not considering all the complexity of modern commerce.

CTDL contracted with ISI to build and sell Superleague Formula the Game.

http://www.ctdpworld.org/news/items/ctdp_goes_slf-game.html

They’re making money on their hobby and mods are a part of their world. Call their other mods testing and development and the users of the mods their Qualty Assurance or Beta testing program. Just because a company gives some of their products away doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to make money somehow.

GSMF asks for donations. We don’t see their books. Are they 100% not for profit? Very likely, but my old league site asked for donations too, now they have banner ads every where you look on the site. Don’t be so quick to assume all mod makers don’t want to eventually spin it into a career at a game company or a way to draw users to a website for advertising purposes. Things change pretty quick. Photobucket and many websites like them start free and then end up using the “free” to establish a user base and then charge.

If the mod groups were 100% philanthopists interested in only helping the needy sim users, then ask the SRW users if they enjoy the one click install. I bet some do. Isn’t that helping the kind and gentle sim user? Robin Hood to the rescue. SRW charges for some things, but other things are free.

I don’t have a dog in this hunt and don’t subscribe to SRW, but there is quite a bit of gray area in all of this and some don’t see it. They just want to throw SRW and SRT and VirtulR under the bus to protect the helpless mod makers.

If the mods aren’t in it for money, then many of them should be fine with more ways to spread the love and distribute their free mods. SRW has both free and pay for use options. SRW users aren’t complaining.

The only people in this issue, who are completely innocent are BMW, Milwaukee, Nazareth, BMW, Porsche etc. Honestly, I’d put SRT and VirtualR in the next category of innocence then SRW and the Modders.

Everyone is benefiting from the licensees and they aren’t making a nickel. Who’s sticking up for them?

Lincoln Miner: Mods are free. Free is good. Websites that host mods advertise and make money. Hmmm, too confusing. Did I mention mods are free and free is good?

Hey, I’d like to buy ARCA racing. Oh wait, there is a free ARCA mod. Now I don’t need to buy ARCA, but wait that means the ARCA sim and licensee’s don’t make money. Too confusing. Did I mention mods are free and free is good?

Thats missing the point, if GSMF asked SRW to remove their mod from the site then the respectful thing to do would be to actually remove it. Did ARCA ask the rfactor modders for this ARCA mod to stop their work? I doubt it, if they did then the likely outcome would have been something similar to this.
http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=243009
Same goes for every f1 mod and race track released on rfactor. The only logical conclusion is that these massive corporations for the most part couldnt give a toss about what modders do in their free time, because it has a negligible impact on their business.

Modding itself is also perfectly acceptable imo, I have every right to convert evo’s nordschleife to rfactor (because the FFB in Evo is rubbish, obviously) if I own both games. The issue is whether these mods are for personal use or distributed – I agree that in this instance Simbin would have every right to be pissed if the track were to be distributed to people who dont own Evo. But I guess thats why all these mod groups are now implementing CD checks.

Oh, and the best things in life are free

Have you thought through the full nightmarish implications of allowing people to mod? Imagine the gall of some mod team who would take a law abiding paid up F-1 licensed game and willfully mod the Fia GT cars into it. They might even get it into their heads to form a company and release it as a commercial product later on. Thank goodness these days we have SRW around to take all the kudos and money out of those kinds of people before they get too big for their boots.

forza better than shift ??? let me laugh
and for the modder things : i’m not on this side or this one, i made mods for some games, i’ve downloaded some mods for some other games…
the fact is :
MODDING IS ILLEGAL NOT LEGAL NOT ALLOWED AND NOT SUPPORTED by the… editors most of the time
so now we got (illegal) modders asking other people to stay in the rules… hmmm, funny.

Big ups to SRT for another cool episode on a subject that I’m still very much into, Sim Racing.

Overall the program is getting better and enjoying the growth of the show.

I’d like to add more to this discussion without going off topic regarding Sim Racing in its current form and its direction and attitude of the people involved.

Where would be the best place to do this here?

Btw really digging VirtualR keep up the good work!

My activity on VirtualR stop here. Nothing of my team will be show here.
Cosm1 from RPMT, Red Passion Modding Team

Mods please delete the last two lines of my first post.

Cheers

Meant to post this before

“How to respond to a game review”
http://www.destructoid.com/how-to-respond-to-a-videogame-review-154490.phtml&mainnav=&track=featurebox

felipe:
same here and I add to that iRacing and MS! iRacing for the biased reviews and MS for accepting their “gifts” for scoring high Forza 3! SRT has become BS!Only part worth in their shows now are steering wheels comparison but paying lots of attention for any contamination!

stabiz: I regret even joining this discussion. F1Racer and Lincoln seems to be a good fit though.

Heh, sorry for having a different opinion to yours, m8.

captain_underpants: I’m not defending SRW. What I’m saying is that there’s unscrupulous bastards around, and it’s up to the modders to protect themselves and their rights, if they have any, against such people. Maybe merely asking for SRW to remove mods doesn’t have the requisite legal weight, I don’t know, but you can be sure if SRW can find a loophole to exploit, and keep those mods up on the site, they will.The whole modding thing seems to be a fairly confusing area, legally speaking. Just how many rights do modders have over a ‘creation’ that has been derived from other businesses intellectual property? It seems logical that all the hours of work that modders put in should count for something, but does it really in legal terms? Has this ever been tested?Don’t get me wrong, I love the whole modding scene, and think games developers ignore the modding community at their peril. I just think that perhaps they shouldn’t start wailing too loudly about their ‘rights’ lest they discover they don’t actually have any. Or, if they do, that they get them down in writing BEFORE people like SRW start exploiting them.

There ya go, what he said ! You’re exactly right there mate and I don’t see how any of that post can be argued against.

I know many guys who wouldn’t buy GTR 2 or Race On or any other game in fact because they get everything converted to rFactor so it’s absolutely true modding is illegal but hey I love it! The problem is most modders specially new comers don’t realize that and try to play by rules they aren’t allowed to!

ISI makes money with rFactor because people buy rFactor to play mods! I wonder how legal is ISI in this too when they release a game with few cars and track but know it will sell well because modders will make money for them!

felipe: I wonder how legal is ISI in this too when they release a game with few cars and track but know it will sell well because modders will make money for them!

ISI are completely clean in this. They made a moddable platform but they didn’t make any of the mods. All of their content is totally legit.
Questioning ISI’s legality wouldbe like arresting the guy at the gun shop because he sold you a gun that you killed someone with.

felipe: I know many guys who wouldn’t buy GTR 2 or Race On or any other game in fact because they get everything converted to rFactor so it’s absolutely true modding is illegal but hey I love it! The problem is most modders specially new comers don’t realize that and try to play by rules they aren’t allowed to!ISI makes money with rFactor because people buy rFactor to play mods! I wonder how legal is ISI in this too when they release a game with few cars and track but know it will sell well because modders will make money for them!

You nailed it.

And the reason the modders haven’t challenged SRW in court is because they’re already illegally infringing on the licenses and copyrights of the car manufacturers, tracks or others.

Many modders use the same product names, tracks etc that Simbin is paying when they release a game. Tell me that’s not dirty pool. Simbin loses. The products don’t get paid either.

Those mods wouldn’t be quite so exciting if they had ZERO product names. ZERO real tracks and ZERO real cars now would they.

The mod community is in the gray area of things like torrents and Napster. Distributing content that they don’t own. Yeah, they built it and yeah it’s free, so if you appreciate the Robin Hood kind of mentality then you’ll defend the modders to the bitter end, but if their case ever went to court they’d owe money for their mods to car manufacturers, tracks, products etc. Not to mention the revenue they stole from Simbin and others, because of the “free” mods.

Now SRW comes along and distributes their “free” mods and it’s GASP that’s not right! Well, then what do you say about the money mod makers owe to Simbin etc for taking revenue from them by giving away free mods. Those mods wouldn’t be quite so exciting if they had ZERO product names. ZERO real tracks and ZERO real cars now would they….????

F1Racer:
ISI are completely clean in this.They made a moddable platform but they didn’t make any of the mods.All of their content is totally legit.
Questioning ISI’s legality wouldbe like arresting the guy at the gun shop because he sold you a gun that you killed someone with.

You’re absolutely correct, but F1′s point is very very good. ISI knows exactly what they are doing. At some point all they need to make is a physics engine and the tools for mod makers, who’ll create their content. It’s like having a bunch of unpaid employees who can create illegal content and you can’t be touched legally.

We just supplied the ability to create an unlicensed BMW to run on an unlicensed track and use the unlicensed F1 trademarks etc. I had no idea a mod maker would actually create one…

Yeah, right. It’s a bit different than a gun or a paint program or a word processor. ISI’s mod tools do one thing and one thing only. Create unlicensed racing content.

Mods are great, but they aren’t without victims and it bugs me that some people put these mod makers on a pedestal and think they are completely innocent and can do no wrong, but SRW is somehow evil. Neither’s hands are clean here and there is plenty of gray area to go around.

And on a related note, for many iRacing, who licenses every single piece of content legally is the evil one. The interweb. It never changes.

Lincoln Miner:
ISI’s mod tools do one thing and one thing only.Create unlicensed racing content.

I think you’d be hard pushed to get them to admit to that.
The tools can equally be used to create fantasy cars and tracks in the same way that ISI did with the original content.
What modders do with the tools is not ISI’s responsibility.
Of course ISI knows as well as we all do that unlicenced mods are going to happen, but what do they then do ? Not produce rF because of that consequence ?

F1Racer:
The tools can equally be used to create fantasy cars and tracks in the same way that ISI did with the original content.

Great point. Modders could create fantasy mods of cars and tracks, but who wants that… Boring. You need the value stored in the unlicensed content to make your mods popular.

Yeah, unlicensed value… ;-)

BMW, Ferrari, Audi, Porsche, Mid-Ohio, LeMans, Nurburgring, Spa, Indianapolis, Castrol, Rolex, Benneton, etc….

All these licenses have value. Fantasy cars and tracks with no sponsor names or logos are flat out boring. Mod makers aren’t paying for the value in the licenses/copyrights of the cars and tracks etc, that they create/copy.

That’s fundamentally why I have little patience for their bitching about SRW. No ones hands are clean. Why should I care? It’s comical.

I can’t hear your Robin Hood phrases anymore. Modders who – for example – create a BMW in order to steal that model from BMW to make it accessable for people who don’t want to pay for it… that’s bullshit!

I don’t talk about stealing content from simbin games or others, I talk about scratch-made mods or conversions with proper CD/DVD verifications.

Well, I guess continuing this discussion doesn’t make any sense…

F1Racer: The tools can equally be used to create fantasy cars and tracks in the same way that ISI did with the original content

The later tracks ISI released such as Brianza are interesting. They are clearly real life tracks – just they don’t use the real name. Is it significant that they were free downloads?

The unlicensed Mercedes in Simbin’s STCC is also 95% a Mercedes in terms of modelling.

It would be interesting to know just exactly what is covered by licensing. Clearly the name is, but it does seem you can sail very close to the wind in terms of likeness.

Very true. But most of the mods we use regularly don’t go for likeness’s. ;)

Good point about Brianza though. Look’s like we’re all going to hell. hehe

[dd]Baule: I can’t hear your Robin Hood phrases anymore. Modders who – for example – create a BMW in order to steal that model from BMW to make it accessable for people who don’t want to pay for it… that’s bullshit!I don’t talk about stealing content from simbin games or others, I talk about scratch-made mods or conversions with proper CD/DVD verifications.Well, I guess continuing this discussion doesn’t make any sense…

CD/DVD verifications for what rFactor? How does that compensate Simbin or the trademark holder for IBM or whomever. Simbin paid real money for the licenses for those cars and tracks and now you think a CD/DVD verification for rFactor helps either Simbin or BMW or the track that never got any money at all, because rFactor never licensed it?

You’re simplifying the economics.

You are all upset, that SRW is making money on a mod from a modder, who supposedly isn’t making any money anyway, but you have no problem with rFactor making money on a mod that is unlicensed. It takes money away from Simbin and the license holders, but you don’t seem to care about that.

Additionally, SRW is not charging for the mod. You can use the service as a free member and download the free mod. The premium service is an option and charging for mods isn’t a part of it.

You have double standards. Protect the mod maker, but not Simbin or anyone else. And the mod makers don’t even lose money, because they are supposedly not in it for the money anyway…

FYI, I used the Robin Hood example, because it’s easy to understand.

You don’t seem to understand trademarks and in that sense you are correct, until you do there is no sense for you to continue this discussion.

If you still feel that modders are legally allowed to slap any trademark, logo, car, track, or other intellectual property on their car and/or track without authorization then read these this article on Trademarks from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark

Shorter Lincoln Miller:

SRW can redistribute unlicensed content for profit and ignore the creators rights, if they don’t get sued by an individual doing not-for-profit work that means that it’s legal, oh and ps, if you want to know what the law is, here is a link to wikipedia.

Beautiful.

Chris_CXC_Simulations: (…) Also, how about doing a dedicated story and allowing SRW to comment. Maybe an interview with one of the staff? This way VirtualR can present both sides and let the views decide.

Personally I think that’s a great idea to talk things out to make peace. Come on guys!

Tell me one person in this whole planet with over 6 billion people who bought rFactor to play mainly those cars and tracks you get wih it? No one!

rFactor is making big money using free labor and unlicensed products that’s the reason why people buy rFactor to play mods i.e. illegal work in 98% of times! How clean is rFactor is very relative specially when they know and every one who play sim games know too that rFactor is just the bridge to illegal wonderland! Remember Al Capone was not sentenced for the hundreds of deaths he was responsible but tax invasion! here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone

I think SRW deciding to join the party is great hella everybody is making money with “free modding” why can’t they? The big losers in this are Simbin and iRacing and ARCA! rFactor is just the old good Napster of sim racing even though it’s my favorite sim by far!

Is rFactor as clean as crystalline water? Of course YES! Are we stupid? Hella NOT!

F1Racer: Very true.But most of the mods we use regularly don’t go for likeness’s. ;)Good point about Brianza though.Look’s like we’re all going to hell.hehe

ok just a couple of things there… :)

‘Hella’ is a company that make auxilliary lighting for cars and other vehicles.
It could also be ‘Hell’ in Italian I guess hehe.

The Al Capone reference has to be the weirdest yet, but even so, he did not get done for tax ‘invasion’. Invasion is what the US did to Iraq (then decided to call it a war for some strange reason).
You mean tax evasion

Lastly, ‘clean as crystalline water’…. thats such a more scientific approach to the simpler ‘clear as crystal’ saying. I like it :)

that’s all you can come up with

English is maybe my fifth language after Portuguese, Italian, French, Spanish which I speak all fluently if I don’t include Chinese to that where I’m right now studying in an University so I don’t really care too much how well I can speak my fifth language falling to sixth now so save your grammar to people who really need it because my head is really full of languages so I do mix up things quite often! You would really understand that if you spoke at least 2 languages fluently !

I really hope you aren’t trying to correct every state in the US, the Aussies, South Africans, etc how to speak like you i would had to say you would be wasting your time and theirs too :) specially in forums and going off topic!
but hey F1Racer I like your comments “most” of the time so what where we discussing about?!

About the invasion thing I really need to read what I’m writing lol but on the same not don’t bite the hands that feeds you i.e. America!

F1Racer: ok just a couple of things there… :)‘Hella’is a company that make auxilliary lighting for cars and other vehicles.
It could also be ‘Hell’ in Italian I guesshehe.The Al Capone reference has to be the weirdest yet, but even so, he did not get done for tax ‘invasion’.Invasion is what the US did to Iraq (then decided to call it a war for some strange reason).
You mean tax evasion
Lastly, ‘clean as crystalline water’….thats such a more scientific approach to the simpler ‘clear as crystal’ saying.I like it :)

It doesn’t really matter what the main use of rFactor is. Fact is ISI do not include any illegal content in their software when you buy the game.

Holding them responsible for the content of mods and what people choose to do with their game is a bit like holding the developer of torrents responsible for all the copyright infringement. It’s a completely legal technology. It’s not his fault that it’s main use is for the distribution of copyrighted material.

The fact remains that weather the mod is scratch made or not. If it’s based on a real life series it is using copyrighted and trademarked logos without a licence to do so. You can spin it any way you like but it is not legal.

What SRW are doing may be questionable. But as others have said it’s very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black when mod groups complain about SRW. Furthermore I have never used SRW but all mods are freely available to download you just pay for faster downloads and online racing. And well surely the fees they charge cover the server costs which do not come for free.

As others have said, 99% of this problem between SRW and modders is full of holes and grey areas and NO ONE is completely innocent.

Don’t take it personal man. I added smileys and laughs in there so you could see I wasn’t being serious.

In fact quite liked the way you phrased a few things actually even though I didn’t expect Al Capone to ever crop up in a sim conversation.

For your info I DO speak at lest 2 languages fluently.

Don’t ever tell me that America feeds me mate. Apart from the fact, thats total BS, you really don’t want to get into a discussion with me on the US.

Oh and if you can write posts like that, with pretty good English usage, then you can know how to spell ‘hell’ instead of ‘hella’.

Now let’s not fall out over this. You did spell ‘losers’ correct so thats a big plus. <- note the smiley.

One more thing, I`ll correct anytime I please :)

FooAtari: It doesn’t really matter what the main use of rFactor is. Fact is ISI do not include any illegal content in their software when you buy the game.Holding them responsible for the content of mods and what people choose to do with their game is a bit like holding the developer of torrents responsible for all the copyright infringement.It’s a completely legal technology. It’s not his fault that it’s main use is for the distribution of copyrighted material.The fact remains that weather the mod is scratch made or not. If it’s based on a real life series it is using copyrighted and trademarked logos without a licence to do so.You can spin it any way you like but it is not legal.What SRW are doing may be questionable.But as others have said it’s very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black when mod groups complain about SRW.Furthermore I have never used SRW but all mods are freely available to download you just pay for faster downloads and online racing. And well surely the fees they charge cover the server costs which do not come for free.As others have said, 99% of this problem between SRW and modders is full of holes and grey areas and NO ONE is completely innocent.

Spot on !