SRT – Episode 52 Released

Jessica, Darin & Shaun of Insidesimracing.tv have released a new episode of InsideSimRacing, bringing us a bunch of very interesting topics.

The guys compare five different steering wheels in their Sim Racing Wheel Shootout, Jessica visits iRacing’s headquaters and talks to Dave Kaemmer and a new leading car is introduced to the list of top sim cars. Enjoy the show!

A little side note: The guys claim that the new leader of the top sim car list can be downloaded off their sponsor’s website Simraceway, even though the modding team who created this car has strictly pointed out they want their content to be removed from the mentioned website.

Even though the mod has partly been removed and hidden on the site, it is still accessible and has been modified by the site to support their install system – All without permission from the content creators.

To completely ignore the content creators is very questionable to begin with, using it to advertise their service is straight up rude though….

GTOmegaRacing.com

  • stabiz

    So what is your point, exactly? That modders “steal” from the big companies so they should not complain when someone else comes along and steal their stuff to make a profit? Thats a stretch – an old one too – considering the fact that the modders only pay is praise on the internet.

    The stuff about free mods hurting sales is just bs, anyone her would buy a theoretical GTR3 in a heartbeat, no matter how many modders have made the tracks or cars beforehand. Modders can “only” enhance an existing product, and if Simbin stopped flogging that Race 07 franchise and made a new pc title with the Lizard engine who here would not buy? (Except those going on and on about all mods being illegal so they can feel better about downloading RaceX)

    Whats next? Blaming mods for iRacings lowish subscriber base?

  • http://racingrenders.com F1Racer

    stabiz:Whats next? Blaming mods for iRacings lowish subscriber base?

    Well why not ? It’s not impossible for someone to say, well I would have subcribed to iracing to race on xxxxx track, but I have it in rFactor and GTR2 so I don’t think I`ll bother paying for it.

    Also I`ll bet there are people who love the Nordshleife but didnt buy GTR Evolution for it because someone converted it to rFactor.

    There are many different angles you can come from.
    rFactor made more sales and therefore ISI made more money because of the free mod base. But that’s what rF was designed to do. Look at rF’s longevity compared to other sims.

    You can’t single the modders out as being all innocent and having all the rights in the world. It’s not that clear cut.

  • Lincoln Miner

    F1Racer: Well why not ? It’s not impossible for someone to say, well I would have subcribed to iracing to race on xxxxx track, but I have it in rFactor and GTR2 so I don’t think I`ll bother paying for it.Also I`ll bet there are people who love the Nordshleife but didnt buy GTR Evolution for it because someone converted it to rFactor.There are many different angles you can come from.rFactor made more sales and therefore ISI made more money because of the free mod base. But that’s what rF was designed to do. Look at rF’s longevity compared to other sims.You can’t single the modders out as being all innocent and having all the rights in the world. It’s not that clear cut.

    +1,000,000 :happy:

    What people can do though is blame SRT and VirtualR.

    Mods are free. Free is good. Websites that host mods advertise and make money. Hmmm, too confusing. Did I mention mods are free and free is good?

    Hey, I’d like to buy ARCA racing. Oh wait, there is a free ARCA mod. Now I don’t need to buy ARCA, but wait that means the ARCA sim and licensee’s don’t make money. Too confusing. Did I mention mods are free and free is good?

    That’s the way many people think on the interweb.

  • captain_underpants

    [dd]Baule:
    The point is: SRW make money with things they don’t have the licence for. Since this is illegal the modders don’t want any connection to SRW.

    My understanding is that the mods are still available for free at the site. If SRW were selling these mods, then it’d be a lot more cut and dried.

    My point is, if the modders aren’t making it clear how they want their mods to be used or not used, then they can’t really complain when people take advantage, and someone will always take an advantage if they can legally get away with it. Maybe SRW feels that since modders aren’t demanding people ask for permission in writing, then they aren’t legally required to. Maybe if modders want to be treated professionally, they should stop acting like amateurs and at the very least compose a TOU to go with their mods.

    Maybe having faith in humanity has served them well enough in the past, but IME, having faith that people will do the right thing is met with disappointment more often than not, especially when the Dollar is involved.

  • [dd]Baule

    captain_underpants:
    My point is, if the modders aren’t making it clear how they want their mods to be used or not used, then they can’t really complain when people take advantage

    They DID, Some of them at least. Teams like GSMF or CTDP said clearly and unambiguous that they don’t want SRW to host their Mods or even events with them. The friendly SRW-team deleted the mods immediately from their website, and some weeks later they suddenly turn back again.

    How can someone defend such morals? I don’t get it…

  • stabiz

    :lol: I regret even joining this discussion. F1Racer and Lincoln seems to be a good fit though.

  • captain_underpants

    [dd]Baule:
    They DID, Some of them at least. Teams like GSMF or CTDP said clearly and unambiguous that they don’t want SRW to host their Mods or even events with them. The friendly SRW-team deleted the mods immediately from their website, and some weeks later they suddenly turn back again.How can someone defend such morals? I don’t get it…

    I’m not defending SRW. What I’m saying is that there’s unscrupulous bastards around, and it’s up to the modders to protect themselves and their rights, if they have any, against such people. Maybe merely asking for SRW to remove mods doesn’t have the requisite legal weight, I don’t know, but you can be sure if SRW can find a loophole to exploit, and keep those mods up on the site, they will.

    The whole modding thing seems to be a fairly confusing area, legally speaking. Just how many rights do modders have over a ‘creation’ that has been derived from other businesses intellectual property? It seems logical that all the hours of work that modders put in should count for something, but does it really in legal terms? Has this ever been tested?

    Don’t get me wrong, I love the whole modding scene, and think games developers ignore the modding community at their peril. I just think that perhaps they shouldn’t start wailing too loudly about their ‘rights’ lest they discover they don’t actually have any. Or, if they do, that they get them down in writing BEFORE people like SRW start exploiting them.

  • Lincoln Miner

    [dd]Baule: CTDP

    You’re not considering all the complexity of modern commerce.

    CTDL contracted with ISI to build and sell Superleague Formula the Game.

    http://www.ctdpworld.org/news/items/ctdp_goes_slf-game.html

    They’re making money on their hobby and mods are a part of their world. Call their other mods testing and development and the users of the mods their Qualty Assurance or Beta testing program. Just because a company gives some of their products away doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to make money somehow.

    GSMF asks for donations. We don’t see their books. Are they 100% not for profit? Very likely, but my old league site asked for donations too, now they have banner ads every where you look on the site. Don’t be so quick to assume all mod makers don’t want to eventually spin it into a career at a game company or a way to draw users to a website for advertising purposes. Things change pretty quick. Photobucket and many websites like them start free and then end up using the “free” to establish a user base and then charge.

    If the mod groups were 100% philanthopists interested in only helping the needy sim users, then ask the SRW users if they enjoy the one click install. I bet some do. Isn’t that helping the kind and gentle sim user? Robin Hood to the rescue. SRW charges for some things, but other things are free.

    I don’t have a dog in this hunt and don’t subscribe to SRW, but there is quite a bit of gray area in all of this and some don’t see it. They just want to throw SRW and SRT and VirtulR under the bus to protect the helpless mod makers.

    If the mods aren’t in it for money, then many of them should be fine with more ways to spread the love and distribute their free mods. SRW has both free and pay for use options. SRW users aren’t complaining.

    The only people in this issue, who are completely innocent are BMW, Milwaukee, Nazareth, BMW, Porsche etc. Honestly, I’d put SRT and VirtualR in the next category of innocence then SRW and the Modders.

    Everyone is benefiting from the licensees and they aren’t making a nickel. Who’s sticking up for them?

  • ForzaBarca88

    Lincoln Miner: Mods are free. Free is good. Websites that host mods advertise and make money. Hmmm, too confusing. Did I mention mods are free and free is good?

    Hey, I’d like to buy ARCA racing. Oh wait, there is a free ARCA mod. Now I don’t need to buy ARCA, but wait that means the ARCA sim and licensee’s don’t make money. Too confusing. Did I mention mods are free and free is good?

    Thats missing the point, if GSMF asked SRW to remove their mod from the site then the respectful thing to do would be to actually remove it. Did ARCA ask the rfactor modders for this ARCA mod to stop their work? I doubt it, if they did then the likely outcome would have been something similar to this.
    http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=243009
    Same goes for every f1 mod and race track released on rfactor. The only logical conclusion is that these massive corporations for the most part couldnt give a toss about what modders do in their free time, because it has a negligible impact on their business.

    Modding itself is also perfectly acceptable imo, I have every right to convert evo’s nordschleife to rfactor (because the FFB in Evo is rubbish, obviously) if I own both games. The issue is whether these mods are for personal use or distributed – I agree that in this instance Simbin would have every right to be pissed if the track were to be distributed to people who dont own Evo. But I guess thats why all these mod groups are now implementing CD checks.

    Oh, and the best things in life are free :sd:

  • djotefsoup

    Have you thought through the full nightmarish implications of allowing people to mod? Imagine the gall of some mod team who would take a law abiding paid up F-1 licensed game and willfully mod the Fia GT cars into it. They might even get it into their heads to form a company and release it as a commercial product later on. Thank goodness these days we have SRW around to take all the kudos and money out of those kinds of people before they get too big for their boots.

  • quik4ever

    forza better than shift ??? let me laugh
    and for the modder things : i’m not on this side or this one, i made mods for some games, i’ve downloaded some mods for some other games…
    the fact is :
    MODDING IS ILLEGAL NOT LEGAL NOT ALLOWED AND NOT SUPPORTED by the… editors most of the time
    so now we got (illegal) modders asking other people to stay in the rules… hmmm, funny.

  • http://www.asrg.org MartinWA

    Big ups to SRT for another cool episode on a subject that I’m still very much into, Sim Racing.

    Overall the program is getting better and enjoying the growth of the show.

    I’d like to add more to this discussion without going off topic regarding Sim Racing in its current form and its direction and attitude of the people involved.

    Where would be the best place to do this here?

    Btw really digging VirtualR keep up the good work!

    My activity on VirtualR stop here. Nothing of my team will be show here.
    Cosm1 from RPMT, Red Passion Modding Team

  • http://www.asrg.org MartinWA

    Mods please delete the last two lines of my first post.

    Cheers

  • FooAtari

    Meant to post this before

    “How to respond to a game review”
    http://www.destructoid.com/how-to-respond-to-a-videogame-review-154490.phtml&mainnav=&track=featurebox

    felipe:
    same here and I add to that iRacing and MS! iRacing for the biased reviews and MS for accepting their “gifts” for scoring high Forza 3! SRT has become BS!Only part worth in their shows now are steering wheels comparison but paying lots of attention for any contamination!

  • http://racingrenders.com F1Racer

    stabiz: I regret even joining this discussion. F1Racer and Lincoln seems to be a good fit though.

    Heh, sorry for having a different opinion to yours, m8. :wink:

  • http://racingrenders.com F1Racer

    captain_underpants: I’m not defending SRW. What I’m saying is that there’s unscrupulous bastards around, and it’s up to the modders to protect themselves and their rights, if they have any, against such people. Maybe merely asking for SRW to remove mods doesn’t have the requisite legal weight, I don’t know, but you can be sure if SRW can find a loophole to exploit, and keep those mods up on the site, they will.The whole modding thing seems to be a fairly confusing area, legally speaking. Just how many rights do modders have over a ‘creation’ that has been derived from other businesses intellectual property? It seems logical that all the hours of work that modders put in should count for something, but does it really in legal terms? Has this ever been tested?Don’t get me wrong, I love the whole modding scene, and think games developers ignore the modding community at their peril. I just think that perhaps they shouldn’t start wailing too loudly about their ‘rights’ lest they discover they don’t actually have any. Or, if they do, that they get them down in writing BEFORE people like SRW start exploiting them.

    There ya go, what he said ! You’re exactly right there mate and I don’t see how any of that post can be argued against.

  • felipe

    I know many guys who wouldn’t buy GTR 2 or Race On or any other game in fact because they get everything converted to rFactor so it’s absolutely true modding is illegal but hey I love it! The problem is most modders specially new comers don’t realize that and try to play by rules they aren’t allowed to!

    ISI makes money with rFactor because people buy rFactor to play mods! I wonder how legal is ISI in this too when they release a game with few cars and track but know it will sell well because modders will make money for them!

  • http://racingrenders.com F1Racer

    felipe: I wonder how legal is ISI in this too when they release a game with few cars and track but know it will sell well because modders will make money for them!

    ISI are completely clean in this. They made a moddable platform but they didn’t make any of the mods. All of their content is totally legit.
    Questioning ISI’s legality wouldbe like arresting the guy at the gun shop because he sold you a gun that you killed someone with.

  • Lincoln Miner

    felipe: I know many guys who wouldn’t buy GTR 2 or Race On or any other game in fact because they get everything converted to rFactor so it’s absolutely true modding is illegal but hey I love it! The problem is most modders specially new comers don’t realize that and try to play by rules they aren’t allowed to!ISI makes money with rFactor because people buy rFactor to play mods! I wonder how legal is ISI in this too when they release a game with few cars and track but know it will sell well because modders will make money for them!

    You nailed it.

    And the reason the modders haven’t challenged SRW in court is because they’re already illegally infringing on the licenses and copyrights of the car manufacturers, tracks or others.

    Many modders use the same product names, tracks etc that Simbin is paying when they release a game. Tell me that’s not dirty pool. Simbin loses. The products don’t get paid either.

    Those mods wouldn’t be quite so exciting if they had ZERO product names. ZERO real tracks and ZERO real cars now would they.

    The mod community is in the gray area of things like torrents and Napster. Distributing content that they don’t own. Yeah, they built it and yeah it’s free, so if you appreciate the Robin Hood kind of mentality then you’ll defend the modders to the bitter end, but if their case ever went to court they’d owe money for their mods to car manufacturers, tracks, products etc. Not to mention the revenue they stole from Simbin and others, because of the “free” mods.

    Now SRW comes along and distributes their “free” mods and it’s GASP that’s not right! Well, then what do you say about the money mod makers owe to Simbin etc for taking revenue from them by giving away free mods. Those mods wouldn’t be quite so exciting if they had ZERO product names. ZERO real tracks and ZERO real cars now would they….????

  • Lincoln Miner

    F1Racer:
    ISI are completely clean in this.They made a moddable platform but they didn’t make any of the mods.All of their content is totally legit.
    Questioning ISI’s legality wouldbe like arresting the guy at the gun shop because he sold you a gun that you killed someone with.

    You’re absolutely correct, but F1′s point is very very good. ISI knows exactly what they are doing. At some point all they need to make is a physics engine and the tools for mod makers, who’ll create their content. It’s like having a bunch of unpaid employees who can create illegal content and you can’t be touched legally.

    We just supplied the ability to create an unlicensed BMW to run on an unlicensed track and use the unlicensed F1 trademarks etc. I had no idea a mod maker would actually create one…

    Yeah, right. It’s a bit different than a gun or a paint program or a word processor. ISI’s mod tools do one thing and one thing only. Create unlicensed racing content.

    Mods are great, but they aren’t without victims and it bugs me that some people put these mod makers on a pedestal and think they are completely innocent and can do no wrong, but SRW is somehow evil. Neither’s hands are clean here and there is plenty of gray area to go around.

    And on a related note, for many iRacing, who licenses every single piece of content legally is the evil one. The interweb. It never changes.

  • http://racingrenders.com F1Racer

    Lincoln Miner:
    ISI’s mod tools do one thing and one thing only.Create unlicensed racing content.

    I think you’d be hard pushed to get them to admit to that.
    The tools can equally be used to create fantasy cars and tracks in the same way that ISI did with the original content.
    What modders do with the tools is not ISI’s responsibility.
    Of course ISI knows as well as we all do that unlicenced mods are going to happen, but what do they then do ? Not produce rF because of that consequence ?

  • Lincoln Miner

    F1Racer:
    The tools can equally be used to create fantasy cars and tracks in the same way that ISI did with the original content.

    Great point. Modders could create fantasy mods of cars and tracks, but who wants that… Boring. You need the value stored in the unlicensed content to make your mods popular.

    Yeah, unlicensed value… ;-)

    BMW, Ferrari, Audi, Porsche, Mid-Ohio, LeMans, Nurburgring, Spa, Indianapolis, Castrol, Rolex, Benneton, etc….

    All these licenses have value. Fantasy cars and tracks with no sponsor names or logos are flat out boring. Mod makers aren’t paying for the value in the licenses/copyrights of the cars and tracks etc, that they create/copy.

    That’s fundamentally why I have little patience for their bitching about SRW. No ones hands are clean. Why should I care? It’s comical.

  • [dd]Baule

    I can’t hear your Robin Hood phrases anymore. Modders who – for example – create a BMW in order to steal that model from BMW to make it accessable for people who don’t want to pay for it… that’s bullshit!

    I don’t talk about stealing content from simbin games or others, I talk about scratch-made mods or conversions with proper CD/DVD verifications.

    Well, I guess continuing this discussion doesn’t make any sense…

  • DW

    F1Racer: The tools can equally be used to create fantasy cars and tracks in the same way that ISI did with the original content

    The later tracks ISI released such as Brianza are interesting. They are clearly real life tracks – just they don’t use the real name. Is it significant that they were free downloads?

    The unlicensed Mercedes in Simbin’s STCC is also 95% a Mercedes in terms of modelling.

    It would be interesting to know just exactly what is covered by licensing. Clearly the name is, but it does seem you can sail very close to the wind in terms of likeness.

  • http://racingrenders.com F1Racer

    Very true. But most of the mods we use regularly don’t go for likeness’s. ;)

    Good point about Brianza though. Look’s like we’re all going to hell. hehe

  • Lincoln Miner

    [dd]Baule: I can’t hear your Robin Hood phrases anymore. Modders who – for example – create a BMW in order to steal that model from BMW to make it accessable for people who don’t want to pay for it… that’s bullshit!I don’t talk about stealing content from simbin games or others, I talk about scratch-made mods or conversions with proper CD/DVD verifications.Well, I guess continuing this discussion doesn’t make any sense…

    CD/DVD verifications for what rFactor? How does that compensate Simbin or the trademark holder for IBM or whomever. Simbin paid real money for the licenses for those cars and tracks and now you think a CD/DVD verification for rFactor helps either Simbin or BMW or the track that never got any money at all, because rFactor never licensed it?

    You’re simplifying the economics.

    You are all upset, that SRW is making money on a mod from a modder, who supposedly isn’t making any money anyway, but you have no problem with rFactor making money on a mod that is unlicensed. It takes money away from Simbin and the license holders, but you don’t seem to care about that.

    Additionally, SRW is not charging for the mod. You can use the service as a free member and download the free mod. The premium service is an option and charging for mods isn’t a part of it.

    You have double standards. Protect the mod maker, but not Simbin or anyone else. And the mod makers don’t even lose money, because they are supposedly not in it for the money anyway…

    FYI, I used the Robin Hood example, because it’s easy to understand.

    You don’t seem to understand trademarks and in that sense you are correct, until you do there is no sense for you to continue this discussion.

    If you still feel that modders are legally allowed to slap any trademark, logo, car, track, or other intellectual property on their car and/or track without authorization then read these this article on Trademarks from Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark

  • djotefsoup

    Shorter Lincoln Miller:

    SRW can redistribute unlicensed content for profit and ignore the creators rights, if they don’t get sued by an individual doing not-for-profit work that means that it’s legal, oh and ps, if you want to know what the law is, here is a link to wikipedia.

    Beautiful.

  • sediol

    Chris_CXC_Simulations: (…) Also, how about doing a dedicated story and allowing SRW to comment. Maybe an interview with one of the staff? This way VirtualR can present both sides and let the views decide.

    Personally I think that’s a great idea to talk things out to make peace. Come on guys!

  • felipe

    Tell me one person in this whole planet with over 6 billion people who bought rFactor to play mainly those cars and tracks you get wih it? No one!

    rFactor is making big money using free labor and unlicensed products that’s the reason why people buy rFactor to play mods i.e. illegal work in 98% of times! How clean is rFactor is very relative specially when they know and every one who play sim games know too that rFactor is just the bridge to illegal wonderland! Remember Al Capone was not sentenced for the hundreds of deaths he was responsible but tax invasion! here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone

    I think SRW deciding to join the party is great hella everybody is making money with “free modding” why can’t they? The big losers in this are Simbin and iRacing and ARCA! rFactor is just the old good Napster of sim racing even though it’s my favorite sim by far!

    Is rFactor as clean as crystalline water? Of course YES! Are we stupid? Hella NOT!

    F1Racer: Very true.But most of the mods we use regularly don’t go for likeness’s. ;)Good point about Brianza though.Look’s like we’re all going to hell.hehe

  • http://racingrenders.com F1Racer

    ok just a couple of things there… :)

    ‘Hella’ is a company that make auxilliary lighting for cars and other vehicles.
    It could also be ‘Hell’ in Italian I guess hehe.

    The Al Capone reference has to be the weirdest yet, but even so, he did not get done for tax ‘invasion’. Invasion is what the US did to Iraq (then decided to call it a war for some strange reason).
    You mean tax evasion :happy:

    Lastly, ‘clean as crystalline water’…. thats such a more scientific approach to the simpler ‘clear as crystal’ saying. I like it :)

  • felipe

    that’s all you can come up with :question:

    English is maybe my fifth language after Portuguese, Italian, French, Spanish which I speak all fluently if I don’t include Chinese to that where I’m right now studying in an University so I don’t really care :sd: too much how well I can speak my fifth language falling to sixth now :wink: so save your grammar to people who really need it :lol: because my head is really full of languages so I do mix up things quite often! You would really understand that if you spoke at least 2 languages fluently :lol: !

    I really hope you aren’t trying to correct every state in the US, the Aussies, South Africans, etc how to speak like you i would had to say you would be wasting your time and theirs too :) specially in forums and going off topic!
    but hey F1Racer I like your comments “most” of the time so what where we discussing about?!

    About the invasion thing I really need to read what I’m writing lol but on the same not don’t bite the hands that feeds you i.e. America!

    F1Racer: ok just a couple of things there… :)‘Hella’is a company that make auxilliary lighting for cars and other vehicles.
    It could also be ‘Hell’ in Italian I guesshehe.The Al Capone reference has to be the weirdest yet, but even so, he did not get done for tax ‘invasion’.Invasion is what the US did to Iraq (then decided to call it a war for some strange reason).
    You mean tax evasion
    Lastly, ‘clean as crystalline water’….thats such a more scientific approach to the simpler ‘clear as crystal’ saying.I like it :)

  • FooAtari

    It doesn’t really matter what the main use of rFactor is. Fact is ISI do not include any illegal content in their software when you buy the game.

    Holding them responsible for the content of mods and what people choose to do with their game is a bit like holding the developer of torrents responsible for all the copyright infringement. It’s a completely legal technology. It’s not his fault that it’s main use is for the distribution of copyrighted material.

    The fact remains that weather the mod is scratch made or not. If it’s based on a real life series it is using copyrighted and trademarked logos without a licence to do so. You can spin it any way you like but it is not legal.

    What SRW are doing may be questionable. But as others have said it’s very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black when mod groups complain about SRW. Furthermore I have never used SRW but all mods are freely available to download you just pay for faster downloads and online racing. And well surely the fees they charge cover the server costs which do not come for free.

    As others have said, 99% of this problem between SRW and modders is full of holes and grey areas and NO ONE is completely innocent.

  • http://racingrenders.com F1Racer

    Don’t take it personal man. I added smileys and laughs in there so you could see I wasn’t being serious.

    In fact quite liked the way you phrased a few things actually even though I didn’t expect Al Capone to ever crop up in a sim conversation.

    For your info I DO speak at lest 2 languages fluently.

    Don’t ever tell me that America feeds me mate. Apart from the fact, thats total BS, you really don’t want to get into a discussion with me on the US.

    Oh and if you can write posts like that, with pretty good English usage, then you can know how to spell ‘hell’ instead of ‘hella’.

    Now let’s not fall out over this. You did spell ‘losers’ correct so thats a big plus. :happy: <- note the smiley.

    One more thing, I`ll correct anytime I please :)

  • http://racingrenders.com F1Racer

    FooAtari: It doesn’t really matter what the main use of rFactor is. Fact is ISI do not include any illegal content in their software when you buy the game.Holding them responsible for the content of mods and what people choose to do with their game is a bit like holding the developer of torrents responsible for all the copyright infringement.It’s a completely legal technology. It’s not his fault that it’s main use is for the distribution of copyrighted material.The fact remains that weather the mod is scratch made or not. If it’s based on a real life series it is using copyrighted and trademarked logos without a licence to do so.You can spin it any way you like but it is not legal.What SRW are doing may be questionable.But as others have said it’s very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black when mod groups complain about SRW.Furthermore I have never used SRW but all mods are freely available to download you just pay for faster downloads and online racing. And well surely the fees they charge cover the server costs which do not come for free.As others have said, 99% of this problem between SRW and modders is full of holes and grey areas and NO ONE is completely innocent.

    Spot on !

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