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Niels: ” I prefer rFactor 1 over the more advanced models in iRacing or rFactor 2where cars aren’t that drivable over the limit.”

If anyone else said this they would get hung drawn and quartered by the respective sims fan base.

Its fantastic that we have someone like Niles who understands what it is that makes driving and racing cars Fun , and then put that into Game Stock Car for us all to enjoy.

Looks like I’ll have to find time to watch this later, but though I haven’t yet, a big Good Luck and Congratulations on the new venture. May it be a success!!

Great. I’ve always loved SimHQ and their often very interesting articles.

Saw that C6 circuit they had over at SIMHQ. Wish they allowed more entries, or that I knew about it ahead of time. Hopefully they will have another one. :D

That’s why I’m happy that iRacing has been working to make the cars more stable over the last year or so. They shouldn’t be hard to drive in control, they should be hard to drive fast and and for all but the very top level formula cars exceeding the limit should mean understeer and scrubbing speed, rather than swapping ends.

Especially in the lower powered iRacing cars it’s no longer ‘hang on and hope not to loop the car’, it’s a rare moment when I self spin anymore in the club level cars. Even better, sounds like they might have a fix for the snappy behavior when correcting a slide and we might get it next week :)

Are the physics based on anything real? Or based on how-we-want-it-to-feel?

Niels’ work is extraordinary. Some of the very best. To say that RFactor 2 cars are less driveable over the limit is some of the most complete B.S. I have ever heard in my entire sim racing life though. The cars of RFactor 2 are so much better than the ones in RF1. Also the tyre model is still being worked on and doesnt have all its features activated, but even so, RF2 has improved the feeling and handling in the limit area so, so, so much over RF1. I’m very suprised that a guy like Niels with all his experience and awesome talents could come to such a conclusion.

Yes a bit of a unlucky interview there. If he doesn’t understand all the fuss with the new sims why just don’t stick with Pole Position.

I think people really just expect to be fast with evey car and every car to behave the same way which is clearly impossible as the simulators improve.

Stick Loeb into a F1 car and he’ll be nowhere although he’s driving his live long cars or stick Vettel into a rally car and he’ll have a hard time also.

There are only a few guys in the world which can do that like Raikkönen.

Heck even the F1 drivers say they can’t drive the car on the limit when the car is not setup right. You have to spend your live with learning driving one kind of cars and even then the majority will fail to drive the cars on the limit and people just don’t get that.

Well firstly rFactor 1 is only as good as the mod you’re playing. In my case I almost only drive my own cars, with the Bodnar FFB wheel, pedals, low latency rig, feel very convincing.

Out of the box rF2 may feel better than ‘out of the box rF1′ and I haven’t tried the latest builds. The 1966 cars felt odd when I tried them a longish time ago.

The main thing though, regardless of how impressive the tire model is, it has to be mod able. RFactor 1 has a ‘does everything quite well’ type tire model, and it is (after years of spreadsheet building) easy to mod. RF2 isn’t at that stage yet where there is a simple(ish) way to create a tire that you know has grip x at slip y and load z.

And when things aren’t mod able to the exact slip angle, tire load and tire force, I loose the desire to work with it. Even if the model is better, I’m probably going to get much better results with an older still decent model that is fully controllable for any set of parameters the tire may find itself facing.

Making a car is as much about the numbers that go into the model as it is about the model itself. Only when both are fully understood can you make a good car. Using notepad or ‘feel’ to tweak a super tire model will not result in a better handling car. Well not how I do it anyway, perhaps some Notepad Uri Geller type people may claim otherwise..

Edit:
These videos show some of the tire modding in rFactor 1,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EWj53lczKY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYrDQWlwyEQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CSGZ-33huw

Once we know enough about rF2 or another modable sim to make such a tool, I’ll be more than interested to have a good go!

I think you are underestimating the science involved in making a sim car. You can see the youtube links in my reply to Kendra. I have nothing against new models, other than in general being a guy who doesn’t fall for hype until the product is proven.

I admire the people developing such amazing stuff since I know a bit more about “Hello World”. Therefore I was wondering why an well established developer says he doesn’t understand the fuss about new sims. But maybe I missed the point.

youve obviously never driven a car on and over the limit in real life then.
Also it doesnt matter how sophisticated the program is, its the inputs and HOW its been programmed thats important. Its only as clever as its programmer, that old saying.

rf2 is catergorically worse than RF1 in handling and ffb – it lost ALL the weight transfer FFB – which has been acknowledged by ISI. The FFB in RF2 is effectively Rf1 FFB + realfeel set to 100%. The only cars that seem to function ok are the 1960′s F1 cars which have a degree of slip angle that you can work with, and have some weight in the FFB, for whatever reason. The Megane trophy car is also ok – but the GTR, F2 car, F1 car, all horrifically bad.

ISI should focus on getting the core fundamentals finished, and let the modding community produce the content, like RF1.

the handling of the cars on and over the limit is a joke. In reality cars handle much more like netkar pro, and this is a fact you’re going to have to just accept.

the common theme running in all of Niels mods is he makes the cars much much more driveable, especially on and over limits (it still suffers from gmotor inherent flaws). He does this because….this is what its like in real life.

i guarantee if you stuck loeb in an F1 car he would be right up there within a second or 2 seconds maximum of the best times.

in the same way Rossi was only a few tenths off in his Ferrari F1 test.

this shows how flawed your thinking is. Racing drivers all drive off Feel, and all cars, rally or F1, have 4 tyres and an engine. Top drivers will be able to drive to the limit in any discipline you can think of.

Not a single F1 driver says ‘they can’t drive the car on the limit’ in the context you’re talking about, they will be referring to the way They want to drive, some have different styles. The top drivers like schumi or alonso or raikonnen simply adapt if a car is not to their liking. They will still be able to drive on the cars tyre limits and reach slip angles consistently.
It just might be that the car might want to snap oversteer or something in which case its ‘difficult to drive’ and is an inherent flaw in the chassis, but they will still be able to drive on the limit of what the car can do.

your entire post was just nonsense frankly.

Ah, please, the comparison of Loeb, Vettel and Raikkonen is a NONSENSE. It’s based on nothing but your own imaginations. My PERSONAL opinion is that Loeb is in the league of Nuvolari, Clark and Senna – but I don’t know of course.

Rossi wasnt a few tenths off the times, you’re an idiot. He was very close to someone who doesnt race in F1 but he wasnt a few tenths off.

Hahaha ACTUALLY I probably have more real life experience than 90% of the people on this forum, you’re a jerk man.

I totally understand and respect Niels is point of view, it doesnt matter how good, how complex, how amazing a tyre model is, if we arent given the tools to use the full potential and take full oadvantage of that it than it doesnt matter if it is the best most realistic tyre model ever, because noone would be able to use that potential. So in that case I completely agree with you Niels. No point in having the best tyre model in the world if only a scientist or highly trained engineer can program and use it, as the software isnt meant for those people, but more normal people like us (and super talented guys like you Niels). I do hope you stick with it and try to learn it, as the technical potential of the model is 10 fold more advanced than the RF1 model. The technology is always advancing, in all areas, graphics physics, sounds, etc. everything is always going to get more complex, deeper, more variables etc. hopefully when ISI releases tools to better manipulate the tyre model to your desire without you having to be a Formula 1 tyre engineer you will then be more motivasted to work with it because you are awesome man!

Pastor, theres no point in even talking to you, to go as far and say that RF2 is worse in handling and ffb than RF1 and that it is just RF1 ffb with full realfeel is a joke on your part. Learn how to drive son. Not saying its perfect, but its up there.

Ya people will probably complain because it might be hard to handle. I see real life F2, F3,5, etc drivers that are 2, 3, 4 seconds off F1 regular drivers times on their first few outings. Those are real life drivers, that have been doing this since they were babies, that have all the feelings of g-force, the full car, no input lag, etc etc. Yet people that just drive based on a ffb steering wheel with some audio and visual cues behind the computer expect to be within a second or 2 of real life.

Racing is like sex, every single guy thinks they are great at it. When 90% arent, and the sad part is that 90% of those 90% that arent good, will never realise that they arent good.

I wish these sim racers could go in real life against some real pro drivers, I mean real pro drivers, like up and comming open wheel karting and junior Formula stars. I would love to see when they get stuck at a point of being 3-5 seconds a lap slower and having no way to improve, because they feel like they are on the limit, on the edge the entire time, and have no idea where the other 3 or 4 seconds is comming from. I would love to see all these, think they could be great in real life wannabes get blown away.

Your points are all valid and verified as true. Throughout recent years we had several tv shows/marketing campaigns putting simracers to drive real cars. And the only successes were seen on sports cars or not that fast prototypes/formulas. Reality and danger are simply a shock. The only way for a simracer to became as fast as a F1 driver would be on track with imense runoff areas in every corner and with unlimited tyre sets. Even Schumacher failed when he had to face modern bykes. But then you have Kimi Raikkonen…

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/1/10355.html

i think this shows just how much you dont know about anything, but talk as if you do. Whats funny is you clearly didnt even bother googling quickly, before confidently saying what you said.

hilarious. that tells me all i need to know about how your mind works and how you formulate your opinions.

Do I even have to say it Kendra ? Can’t you let someone have a different opinion without having insults thrown at them ?

More insults… I think I have to put you on notice here Kendra. It’s too frequent and unnecessary.

Actually Loeb has already driven at least 2 F1 cars(Redbull and Renault).

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2008/11/8720.html
He’s far fom having any hard time with them.

Renault R26 F1 test at paul ricard in 2008(Loeb’s best laptime was only 1s slower than Kovalainen):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6kuNt0AfDI

dude, i ‘ve seen that already but you don’t get the point or maybe i should have written it the other way.
it’s not about loeb or vettel. those guys are the cream of the cream. those guys are really extraordinary people but what about the million other racers which even don’t get into F1 or wrc.
could they just jump in to any car and move it on the limit and then the next car and the next car? well i think we all know the answer.
dirving cars fast and on the limit is not that easy as many think here.
i said already people are learning their live long to drive one kind of cars and the they still don’t reach their goal in racing. but thank you for the rectification. voted up. :)

Ive read the Rossi articles over the years. I read F1 news almost every single day.

You cannot compare a “2008″ spec car (that could mean so many things, very vague) raced in 2010, on a comletely different day with different conditions, in a low fuel “time attack” set-up, compared to a race lap with fuel, worn tyres, 300km race setup, and so on.

The time he set was extremely impressive, trust me, I rate Rossi very highly.

too frequent?

When he says things like I obviously havent driven a car….., and in such a condescending tone, well what do you expect?

No you didn’t see it, or you wouldn’t have made such a statement. Some people have more potential than others, it’s a fact.

I expect you to rise above the need to use direct insults. I expect you to be better than that, which I thought you were.

Well you did ask.

…….2008 spec car would be just that. The F1 car from 2008 made by Ferrari. Yes the car was developed, we don’t know, but the time is still very comparable, if it is within the ballpark then you know it was good enough.

Ok then – how about THIS.
http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2008/11/8720.html

more proof of how wrong you were. Trust me, google is your friend. Use it and learn some facts to base your opinions on.