The Simbin Development Team maintains close ties to the sim racing community and as such, the Swedish developer is very much aware of the rush to convert content from their latest GTR Evolution simulation to other titles.
Among other news, Simbin has sent out an email with their stand on modding and conversions to various sites including this one. Allow me to share the most important paragraphs with you:
In the past SimBin have applauded serious modding groups and have even employed the help of some as well as recruit new employees from the groups of talented individuals. We have every intention of supporting quality mods, customs skins and all the other changes that make our games come alive with the help of dedicated modding communities across the globe. GTR Evolution underlines this statement by being relatively easy to add new and unique content for.
But… SimBin can no longer afford pouring funds into creating unique quality content for competing titles. Lately the mutual respect that used to exist seems to have vanished and now straight conversions between competing titles are done in a matter of minutes after we release a new game. Our Nürburgring and Macau are prime examples. Unless something is done to stop this we will no longer be able to afford creating quality content and with 10Tacle fresh in memory I think it is clear that some individuals in the simracing community are effectively ruining it for everyone by their actions and that there will be no more new titles unless this behavior is stopped.
Straight conversions require little skill, no imagination and it is nothing but petty theft. True mod making is the addition of NEW, fresh and unique content to a title… not stealing content for use elsewhere. I hope all of you will consider this and take matters into your own hands by not allowing these conversions in your own community.
This is a wake-up call. Things must change now if SimBin are to deliver any new titles on PC, and the change can only start with you dedicated simracers saying “enough” !
If you have ideas on how to change the way things are at the moment or what can be done to ensure a more “fair” way of modding in the future then let us know, we are interested in solutions much more than in assigning blame. The alternatives are either lawsuits which we really don’t want to resort to, moving all developments to consoles where things are not stolen, or you guys taking up the challenge and create an environment in YOUR community where conversions are not accepted. If you agree with our stance in this, then let your concern be heard in those forums and gathering points where piracy seems to be an accepted standard.
We hope you can make a difference in the battle against theft and piracy while allowing the true modders to create their works of art adding to the fun and enjoyment of everyone.
This statement really shows Simbin’s respect for the community as other companies would have resort to more drastic measures without any further notice. I completely agree on their points and have chosen to define a ground rule for myself.
VirtualR.net will not be endorsing, promoting or linking any straight GTR Evolution conversions that come without any form of protection that ensures they will only be used by GTR Evolution owners (i. e. CD-Check).
I hope that most of you agree on this decision, as usual the comments are the place to voice your opinion.
StefanDK
September 3rd, 2008 at 16:56
SimBin makes quite sence when saying this. I fully support it. It would be awful if no more titles were published from SimBin. Though I like being able to drive the various tracks in the various games, I still support having unique tracks and cars exist in one game and not another.
I personnaly buy most of these games to get the most varying experiences (well, not iRacing since it costs too much an hour for me…). So I do not see an ethical problem for me, personally, in racing on track conversions, since I have already bought the original game.
Floptickle
September 3rd, 2008 at 16:56
I completely agree with Simbin, and they have my full support :)
Floptickle
September 3rd, 2008 at 16:58
Oh yeah, and Stefan and I have something in common. I own the titles where some of my custom tracks (the converted ones ;)) come from.
Filipe Galego
September 3rd, 2008 at 17:00
Let’s hope that this is the begin of some changes in the mod community…
stabiz
September 3rd, 2008 at 17:18
I really hope so too, and I`m not saying it to be politically correct. I have several conversions on my hd, but the fact that I own legitimate copies of the game they came from, makes it ok in my mind.
The problem are all the “screw *insert game*, when is it available for rFactor/GTR2?” morons.
StefanDK
September 3rd, 2008 at 17:24
To be honest, I did not know that the conversions were illegal?? Geeze I must consider uninstalling them then … Hm… That just says a thing about how common or accepted it is in the sim community??? Not that I am such a big part of it hehe…
Hope I don’t get a lawsuit on my hands aaarrrghhhh…
Joe Buddy
September 3rd, 2008 at 17:25
Yea, just imagine seeing your hard work out there being used and enjoyed with out you getting recognition, in fact someone else is getting credit for a job well done.
Now imagine that you and your family DEPEND on the revenue for your hard work to provide food and shelter.
Originally, it was hard to convince some of my children that pirating was stealing. But explained in the right way, they “got it”.
Are you an honest person? Would you take something from someone else with out their permission, something they worked hard for, something they care for?
I believe in treating people just the way I would want them to treat me.
I really hope we don’t lose Simbin.
Joe
ermax18
September 3rd, 2008 at 17:26
I like the efforts some of the newer conversions have made to ensure people own the original content. The problem is you have shady people that will release unprotected versions of the conversions. Once the CD Check is done the content is then open for copying. SimBin/ISI would have to work on a better framework for moding with better copy protection. I think for the most part all of us are honest and buy all of the content. I have purchased sims that I never even play (iRacing/RACE07) just to help fund my hobby. It is such a small market I would hate to see it dry up.
KittX
September 3rd, 2008 at 17:50
ok, so a lot of modders said “no” to conversions of tracks in public. But wouldn’t you mind that it’s still not very honest at last?
As soon as lots of new track builders are using some objects or textures from SimBin’s original work. Let’s say “no” to that also, and this way we have to delete all the tracks from NoGrip, Rfactorcentral etc because i am more than sure that almost every track has at least one object or texture from gtl/gtr2/race etc. Double standards again, huh?
But on the other side, i’m sure than not every track builder can easily make, for example, a good tree texture with no bugs of alpha channel, at least it will take some (or maybe a lot) of time. And now let’s imagine how’s to create every texture from scratch. This way only few track modders will keep awake, and you’ll be waiting for every new track for ages.
I am not supporting the piracy or any illegal stuff, but just let’s not stick out your honesty, because it’s still not 100% honestly.
DCLXVI
September 3rd, 2008 at 18:00
I have to agree with them.
It’s easy to convert, but it’s something else to create quality new content.
Even if all simracers buy both (most) simracing games, it could lead them not to by the new ones.
I think they should think about a system where modders could be retributed for their contribution to the game with new original mods from scratch, that could help.
Also they should keep the spirit of the original games, an remember what made the game sucessfull. It seems they forget how to do a GT that is pleasant to drive.
Otherwise if it becomes too Arcade, most simracers won’t buy the game. And Simbin become bin.
Also they should not forget they were modders before starting Simbin.
Now if this is only an excuse to announce that RACE Pro won’t be ported to PC… No comment
Pugamall
September 3rd, 2008 at 18:29
I gotta agree with what they say,I love having a massive list of tracks and car choices in all my sims,but not at the expense of loosing the people who make the sims,I’m happy to say I have all the sims they have done so it should cover me,but no doubt there are some in my list that might breach some form of rights,and I would’nt know,but I,m sure if they have been available to me then people without the games would have similarly packed hard drives.
I’m so so looking forward to the new Simbin Pc racing game,with lizard engine ect,I think the suggestions they make and rules to be taken on by sites like this should show some signs of goodwill from the community,and help keep the good relationship intact
RKipker
September 3rd, 2008 at 18:33
I fully support Simbin and all gaming developers on this. I don’t think cross-platform converting should be accepted by the community. If it must be done, I believe a CD/DVD check is a must. If you got it on Steam, then to bad buy another copy.
I purchased GTRe on Steam and off Amazon from JR Music (box)and still paid less for both than than any new PS3/360 game.
Come-on folks… please see the writing on the wall! I’m not saying buy two copies, but please stop supporting direct conversions of a developers content.
BTW, I think GTRe is far better than GTR2/rfactor. It’s a shame folks don’t convert the indenpendent mods to GTRe.
Just a simple opinion, but its mine!
RKip
F1Racer
September 3rd, 2008 at 18:36
Race Pro is on the PC. Its called GTR Evolution with the only difference being a track (so I believe).
I also agree with Simbins sentiments. Cross-modding (converting content from one sim to another) is rampant these days and the GTR-E Nordschleife was a classic example.
Now its about to come out on GTR2 and rFactor and the actual boxed game hasn’t even been officially released yet !
The DVD check is a step in the right direction but as someone pointed out already, once its installed, its all there for re-packing without protection.
The only vague thoughts I have is for the game to have all of its original content encrypted but still be able to accept new mods from 3rd parties.
Also the sim-racing makers like Simbin/Blimey could help themselves by providing the community with encryption tools to encrypt their final work if necessary.
All the community can do in reality is have the webmasters of all the major sim sites get their heads together and make a pact never to host cross-modded material (and remove the recent GTR-E conversions).
Stopping it completely will be very difficult because there wil always be those that don’t care about having everything pirated no matter what. The ones that cannot see the big picture or don’t care about it.
To be honest, considering the history of the sim community, Simbin must have known their GTR-E content would be converted. So why didn’t they take precautions and encrypt it ? Is it because it can’t be done on this old game engine ? Couldnt anything have been done ?
HistorX for exmple not only briliantly forced a dvd check for install but ecrypted the car files too.
It might not be 100% watertight but all you can do really is play a damage limitation game.
If only the dvd-check system could be more solid and not allow the content to be so exposed once installed. Maybe, again, the sim makers can help there with some clever tools for the community in future games.
I think its up to the game makers too to look at the future and help themselves by helping us.
Encrypt your date but help the modders to either encrypt theirs too and maybe even come up with a solution that allows cross-modding to take place because a system will be in place to prove ownership of the recipient game.
This probably all sounds nonsense and unworkable but Im just bouncing ideas around.
First thing…webmasters meeting on IRC or MSN or whatever.
A summit if you like. :)
No more news or even previews of any cross modded material.
You cant stop it, but you can sure limit the damage.
David
September 3rd, 2008 at 18:38
Well I think on the surface this statement by Simbin seems prety fair but I think Simbin is making the problem much greater then it really is and not for the right reasons. I doubt anyone is going to avoid buying a new title that is awesome because they got a converted version of it. That is just not realistic.
If your are a GTR fan you will continue to follow the series and by new titles in the hopes for improvments and new content. If you are a rfactor fan you may download a converted title but if the converted content is that great any serious person like myself will by the orignal because you want the best. Just like the historic mod converted GTL cars it lasted a few days or so basicly something new then just died away.
The truth is people like Simbin and many other software companies just want to rebadge the same old stuff with no real improments and sell it for a fresh 40 or 50 bucks. My point is that if your stuff is great and improved any serious person will glady drop the money needed to buy it. The truth is Sinbins stuff is just not that good still and they want to catch every little fish they can. I am not approving of stealing but this attiude that they will be forced to stop producing new content is foolish. Please you will be forced to produce better and improved content.
In the early days software companys just keept putting out fresh titles of the same old stuff with a few token improvments while still charging top dollor for the software. The postive side effect of conversions if you want to call it positive is it may keep software companys thinking about producing new and improved stuff before they release a new money making title with a few little changes.
If you took a look at the money they claim may be lost thru conversions compared to the real amount of people that would have bought the title I doubt it would be more the 1 percent of loss.
F1Racer
September 3rd, 2008 at 18:45
Might want to start by removing this.
http://www.virtualr.net/gtr-evo-nordschleife-for-gtr2-10-released/
Paul Kelly
September 3rd, 2008 at 18:47
I support SimBin wholeheartedly on this. I’ve never been a fan of conversions for the most basic of reasons — most of them suck compared to the original!
The DVD check isn’t an effective deterrent to theft at all. Torrents of almost every PC racing game are available on the Net within days of their release, and disc images from those torrents can be used during DVD checks for converted mods without the holder actually having paid for the game represented on the disc.
lovretta
September 3rd, 2008 at 18:48
I totally understand Simbin, and I support them. But again, I want to have The Ring and R8 in the rFactor. Because of one very simple thing: forcefeedback. RealFeel plugin. If SimBin would start to use this sort of forcefeedback = direct force feedback – whats happening on steering rack – send it to wheel, then I would never ever consider playing GTR2 in rFactor. Today, I fired up GTL after a long time, came to a first corner, and gave up. This generated ForceFeedback is just bad.
So if they finally “include” some realistic FFB then I don’t need conversions anymore.
F1Racer
September 3rd, 2008 at 18:52
yes but thats only you lovretta. Im sure theres loads of people who have many other reasons to justify themselves.
Anonymous
September 3rd, 2008 at 19:09
I have purchased every SimBin title so Im ok with my convertions. But I guess that are not those convertions that are hurting their sales but the disapointment with their most recent titles! those Race06-07 limitations and dumbed down simulation sucks! Why not GTR3 with 2005-2008 FIA championships? WHy limit the grid to 25 cars? since RACE is a step back from GTR and GTR2 in many aspects these convertions seems natural for me.
Wil
September 3rd, 2008 at 19:10
I have purchased every SimBin title so Im ok with my convertions. But I guess that are not those convertions that are hurting their sales but the disapointment with their most recent titles! those Race06-07 limitations and dumbed down simulation sucks! Why not GTR3 with 2005-2008 FIA championships? WHy limit the grid to 25 cars? since RACE is a step back from GTR and GTR2 in many aspects these convertions seems natural for me.
GTEvo
September 3rd, 2008 at 19:15
hi Lretta
Not Thousands Realfeel Plugins will displace One LTT(Live TrackTechnologie)
This Feature is the MainArgument to buy and use any Simbin/Blimey Title.
Only that LTT is the Opposite to rFactor..LTT is defenetly the Most Innovated Feature around whole Simracing on IsiEngine.
For each Hardcore Simracer is this the MustHave around Simracing on the realistic GPS Track Made by Simbin/Blimey.
In this Sence
Holger
Wix
September 3rd, 2008 at 19:17
in general a mod is every bit as illegal as a conversion, if you take the copyright law for real. I guess that in the end it would come down to respect. Software company´s should not suffer income loss.i guess we all agree there, but we are all hypocrits if we start playing the perfect user now. i am convinced that even the nicest simracer has tried his part of illegal content. Maybe indeed we need a mentality change. its nice to hear Montoya say he is going to put up a tighter selection on the posts. i guess i will do the same on http://www.bsim-racing.com. tough its not always easy to find out what is right and what is wrong. i hope its not going to create to many flame wars. moraly its correct. practically it will not be easy to find the border between acceptable or not. However, i have to admire the way Simbin tacles the problem by the mail release to the community. it does make you think about how we all are harming the sim scene to some extend.
Annyways … i purschased GTR – GTR2 – rFactor – Live for speed – GT Legents – GTR-Evo – Racedriver – grid – all Grand Turismos and my Photoshop … thats about all i can do.. How many of us purschased the tools for modding ? I guess all modders have legit 3d-Max, Photoshop and other modder tools. :-) that might be a nice follow up for this topic
F1Racer
September 3rd, 2008 at 19:58
Wil – “I have purchased every SimBin title so Im ok with my convertions.”
I think you’re missing the point. Its hasnt go anything to do with if you’re ok or not. The majority probably aren’t and the issue that the conversions exist in the first place.
Its that they exist thats the problem, not that YOU are “legal” because you own the games.
Octavarium
September 3rd, 2008 at 20:12
I think the telling fact is that the ONLY part of GTR-E which people want to get their hands on is the new Nordschliefe. Real improvements you can’t convert from game to game – much as its an enjoyable game, it’s difficult to see GTR-E as anything other than a cash cow when it includes little more than you would expect from a top quality mod. Sure the price is good, but if you compare it too rFactor which when released was a pioneering platform and totally new engine it doesn’t seem like were getting a whole lot.
In reality conversions won’t stop people from buying the real deal IF and ONLY IF the real deal is worth their money in the first place.
RJC_pt
September 3rd, 2008 at 20:24
If they add their own engine they could prevent it better…
Releasing 4-5 games with the same engine, makes things harder on them… Having games with repeated content doesnt make it better either (race 06/ race 07)
Thats no execuse anyway, i for one have them all ( gtr 1/2, gtl, Race 06/07, gtr e,rf and lfs) and i like to be able to drive some car that i have in one sim on track of other sim… i’m honest here
Now for all they can complain(and blackmail wint console thing) so should we, make a better efort at doing sims, use YOUR engine, your own filetypes, and bring something really new, stop complaing and do better, if your games is better and offer tons of content what are convertions for anyway?
Seems to me that latter simbin games are aimed at being mediocre, doing the basis, leaving space for the next game the next year, that does not make a custumer happy, when you feel that they are not giving 100%…
Anyway, sory for the not so organised post
Simdriver
September 3rd, 2008 at 21:39
I understand Simbin and agree with them. Mods are a great thing and everybody used them. Time to make a Difference between Modders and Converters.
Simbin always makes a good Job. I dont want to loose such good Race-Sim-developers, because of Converting their work to other Sim`s. I buyed all Sim`s from GTL to GTR Evo and happy with them. And yes i used the Converted “Nordschleife” from GTR Evo in GTR². I dont know if it is right to use it, but i know that i payed 40€ for this track (and the Rest of this GREAT Game). It`s a Hard thing
It`s Time to make a Change, thats truth but how? Please dont go to Console and make your Games Arcarde-Like. Or do you want to mess with GT-Developers? I think Simbin can come very close to GT5 if they update Graphic (HD-Like). Physic was always the “Best” (for me). GT5 is also Grandios. But Simbin is this what you want?
And YOU??? What do you want??? Think of it!!!
Misu
September 3rd, 2008 at 22:01
From my point of view, SimBin’s statement is understandable but some of the things stated are not fit for my opinion. Maybe its just a personal stupidity.
But.
The issue is mostly because they use a pretty similar platform compared to some “competing titles” so I think they need to cooperate in some ways with the rivals on the market to design and setup a brand new marketing model. In short I think its pretty unimportant if a person use a SimBin circuit in – for example – rFactor if the gamer has bought both titles because every parties gets their moneys. So the issue is really about giving everybody what they are working for.
I think the rFactor GTL MOD was a step towards this model even if there were modified copies distibuted on torrent sites. I see that SimBin is keen to make changes in its publishing policy, dropping the disgusting Starforce protection and using Steam is a sign for me, so lets try to reinvent the wheel.
Wil
September 3rd, 2008 at 22:15
Hi f1Racer! I really love your renders and your blog.
I dont missed the point just put mine, right? :mrgreen:
This statement seems like just a justificative for moving to console market which them are already doing.
The race06-07 are just mediocre compared with GTR/GTR2 series. why not release The Ring as a GTR2 addon or something like Fia GT 2005/2008?
I would pay the full price for this. Its not the 40-50 bucks problem.
I purchased Race Grid just to enjoy Leman multi-class racing…
And the Steam method of distribuition sucks too.
Like someone here said I guess that their own policy is the actual problem of this convertions nothing else.
Cheers.
;-)
September 3rd, 2008 at 22:42
i agree with simbin
also with F1RACER September 3rd, 2008 at 6:36 pm
&
David September 3rd, 2008 at 6:38 pm
anyway, why would anyone want to convert, simbin’s ‘Macau’
when race king’s version for rfactor is 110 times better, play it @ 3:30pm, time scale X20, and watch the transformation to night, i would say it as the best night lighting fx
UncleBoogie
September 3rd, 2008 at 22:44
“Wah wah we’re taking about ball home”.
When they were a mod group they were hardly pure as the driven snow. Now they’re basically saying that their sims offer nothing of worth beyond the content if they believe they are losing sales. They’re admitting their sims aren’t very good if you think about it, which is very funny.
Funny how ISI don’t post whiny diatribes and throw their toys out of the pram over how all their stuff is ported over to multiple Simbin titles.
This is yet another PC developer seeing the “gouge for everything” model on the consoles and getting dollar signs in their eyes, then blaming the community for the failings of the PC market so they don’t lose any kudos when they leave because the gullible majority believe it.
Either that or Simbin are crushingly naive, which could very well the case given the “our sims offer nothing of use beyond the cars and tracks” subtext of their note.
Rick Roll
September 3rd, 2008 at 22:56
Lars Ulrich is coming after everyone!! He has your IP!! WATCH OUT!
C
September 3rd, 2008 at 23:05
I think Simbin just told us we could hunt and kill converters. Or perhaps they missed a comma.
F1Racer
September 3rd, 2008 at 23:39
UncleBoogie – “Funny how ISI don’t post whiny diatribes and throw their toys out of the pram over how all their stuff is ported over to multiple Simbin titles.”
erm… what ISI stuff ? The Hammer and the Houston car ? The Toban circuit maybe ?
ISI’s rFactor is open and 99% of the content is 3rd party stuff, not ISI’s.
Wil – “This statement seems like just a justificative for moving to console market which them are already doing.”
Well I dont suppose we can dismiss this possibility. It would be a shame if they did leave the PC behind. After all their roots are here and they are where they are now largely because of the community.
I still see a few people saying how they are personally affected. This isnt about 1 single individual who might own all the games so thinks its ok for the conversions to exist, or the person who would buy a track for $40 (How many others would ? – The company cannot plan around an individual).
The bigger picture is the community.
I dont paticularly like the undertone of the part of Simbins statement that basically says ’stop conversions or no more games’. Not the most diplomatic way to handle things but then again I dont think you get very far being nice and soft around here :)
Simbins next game should be with a new engine and support for file encryption for their data.
With Race and GTRE its fairly open to extract the data and what they are saying now is the equivalent of “The door of my house is open but I dont want anyone to come in and steal anything from me or I`ll move house !”
The answer obviously is, get a lock on the door then.
But that doesnt mean you have to stop inviting people in.
I think you can still encrypt your own game files but leave the game open to additional 3rd party content.
That must be where the answer lies.
kankar
September 4th, 2008 at 03:11
Unless being completely blind we all know SimBin is aiming con$ole market now. they just released 5 games in less then 2 years.. (and not much content in each of them except gtr2 from blimey!)
That said, i agree with them to be against copy-cat, but the gtr1 – gtr2 – buggy race -race07 –gtr evo – are all based on the isi engine… let’s say they are practically mods themselves of ISI mother. so after all the cash simbin made since 3 years by selling those.. i think these direct conversions were the price to pay sooner or later unfortunately for them.. That said I won’t download these converted tracks, we have to respect those lucrative minds who created them. Sincerely.
Anonymous
September 4th, 2008 at 04:34
F1Racer: I agree with your point – A fair and good faith point – but their statement still dont catch…
They should look at this convertions like a manifest from the community saying this: “WE WANT ALL THIS COOL STUFF INTO A DECENT GAME STRUTURE, WITH A TRUE RACING SYSTEM, PIT-STOPS 24H RACES, ETC.!”
Ramon van Rijn
September 4th, 2008 at 08:17
Its very funny to see how many just don’t see it right concerning property rights. You buy a game and are actually thinking the content is yours; ready to port/convert it to your other game.
Basicly you are saying, hey I bought this nice movie, now I can create my own movie using video-clips from several movies I own into making my favorite movie. True, but you can’t release it without crossing the lines!
Thats the same for this on-going conversion madness. You think you are right because you own the game(s). Wrong!
Reading the above comments, about they should make a ‘proper’ game etc.etc.
Why don’t you offer your help and start a new career at SimBin, because some of you think they can do it better.
GTR2 was indeed a great game for its era. But if you read a bit better on forums where reallife racers drove for example RACE07 or Evo, you will notice the latest SimBin titles are closer to reality than you might think.
A true simulation is not that it is hard to drive a car, like in GTR or GTR2. Everyone with a driving license your be able to drive a high-powered car and really fast too. The difference is approaching the limits, thats what physics and reality is based on. In this matter GTR2 is totally wrong and the current title right.
Almost every WTCC-weekend, real WTCC drivers try RACE 07 and all they can say its as close to reality as it can get. Same goes for the other classes in RACE 07.
Then we go to features; why are you still comparing features from one race-game to another. 24h Racing, driver swapping, etc.etc. Honestly, how many simracers do you think will actually do this? I don’t have the numbers but I think it will only be 1-3% of the drivers. Is it worth investing for only 1-3% of the customers to implement such features?
Why don’t I see those questions for Call of Duty 4 or Crysis/etc.etc. Where is the grafity gun from Half-Life2? Where is the BFG from Doom?
Very strange that simracers keep on demanding features. I am pretty sure every game developer needs to produce their game with a given budget in a given time, just like every decent project in a normal company.
They have to make choices and not every feature can be in it, its simply a matter of money/time and customer-base -> Read sales!
Finally their is the ongoing demand for licensed cars. As a commercial company you are not allowed to steal somebody’s property into a game. Modders think they can, but actually they are operating in a grey area. Real game developers needs permission for tracks/cars to include in a game. Sometimes free, some cheap, some expensive. You can’t invest $$$$ in content you will never get back in sales. The simracing world is just too small for it.
FIA GT is the main question in this. I am not sure why SimBin is not using this concept anymore, but I do know they got the FIA GT license at the time the Blimey-boys were in fact SimBin. Maybe the license is at Blimey? Maybe the license can’t be used anymore because the original FIA GT series from the past does not exist anymore. Its changed at least 2 times in the last years!
To conclude my essay; I own/rent most of the current and past simracing games (iRacing, GTR-series, GTL, rFactor, LFS) and I enjoy almost all of them. Each game has good things and flaws. We can’t simply have it all in one game. The future will decide for us.
PS. I am Admin for RaceDepartment.com; RaceDepartment will in no way run or host illegal mods/tracks for their community. We love the simracing industry and will try helping in their survival, no matter if its SimBin, ISI, LFS or the really creative mod-groups!
Thanks for reading.
WiX
September 4th, 2008 at 08:41
about that ” moving to the console world ” issiue. it might be possible that Simbin is looking to go Console only , because of the better revenue , but i think that in the arcade league they are not major players . Gran Turismo , Forza and Project Gotham are way ahead in the arcade racer section. Look at Grid .. they proved that something in between does not really make it a golden deal. I think that if the SIM in SIMbin has some meaning , they will have to stay in the PC scene. it looks more and more that the Sim PC community will have to rely on LFS and rFactor-2 , and maybe iRacing ( tough they will have to drop the price , to make it in the long run ) Talking LFS .. they proved you can hold back the convertors . they use their own engine ( and a bloody good one ) their own content .. if they made certain parts of the sim moddable, like the cars , or tracks , this would have allready been NR1 for a long time. now lets wait and see what ISI can do with rFactor2 …
r8response
September 4th, 2008 at 08:50
This won’t make me popular, but i find what Simbin has said somewhat hypocritical.
They started their “careers” by ripping off tracks from EA for their F1-2002 mod GTR 2002. I have alot of respect for that mod and any work they’ve done up until now.
But they face alienating the community thats supported them for so long by placing demands on us when they started out by doing exactly what they want to see stopped
F1Racer
September 4th, 2008 at 11:07
r8response: As I recall, F1-2002 was an EA Game and GTR2002 was a mod played on an EA game. So it doesn’t totally count as being hypocritical unless they ripped content from a non EA game.
I dont recall that Simbin were cross-modding when they started.
Ramon van Rijn: Nice post m8
GTEvo
September 4th, 2008 at 11:08
hi Guys..im pretty sure..with that first Day we get an Lizard Titel from Simbin/Blimey…the whole “Serios” Communitie start an Isi/Lizard Flamewar !
Then its not anymore a dissemble Moddingsceene against Simbin/Blimey..then its much more..then its a “Isi-Mod Communitie” against the World !
In this Sense..
“Bann Isi” :!: :?:
But Serios Guys:”
Asked yourself this 3 Questions.
1.Why did Simbin especially at this Time written his OpenLetter?
2.How can be ModdersWork the Reason for 10Tacles Bankruptcies, wich Simbin want telling us…?
3.is it really that unpredictable Earthquake now for Simbin..that they cant see this coming !?.
Sportsfriends…dont believe anything what Companies will telling you..in most Facts its an able subjective political Motivation, by using PseudoArguments if they start a new EvolutionPhilosophie.
Nobody in this Sceene could see this diffrent and a bit suspect if Simbin had shown his Warning Fingers around GTL/GTR2 Release..but now..directly with his start in the KonsoleMarket is this very very “cheap” and translucent where the Motivation for this OpenLetter targets.
Im a very proud Owner of each SimbinGame..but i have then a Question too, directly to Simbin :”
Could you explain us that unbelievable “BetaGame” Publishing from your first RACE Titel !?
This Game was horrible..absolutley BetaContent..within so enourmous technical Errors und offcourse an unaczeptable “Predator-Kapitalism” !
Ive never seen and heard any Apology, i never seen there an really needed MustHave-OpenLetter to there Fans and Customers..ive only seen well-grounded Ignorance, after thousands deep dissapointed SimbinFans..like me..
Guys….its nice to see that the “Communitie” is not that “BAD-Communtie” how they felt generally..we all can see now that our Communitie is a very serios and very healthy Solidarity..i cant defently accept this subjekttive negative “All-In” Argument..this Alibi-Argument from Simbins-Site to depreciate our Communtie.
!
For me its defenetly not the seriosts Kind of Art to Change Things wich are needed since Internet was born
Warning OpenLetters to there Customers, to stop there complete Production is disconcerting and desolate for the Best HighClass Simulation Company in the World !
Its dilletantish. :!:
A heartsbloddy
SimbinFan
Holger
cn
September 4th, 2008 at 12:33
I’ve bought GTR, GTR2, Gt Legends, RACE07 and will buy GTR Evolution when it comes out for retail in Australia. I do understand their stance on this but I would like to drive Nurburgring or Macau with GTR2 cars or vice versa. So it is a little disappointing for me that Simbin won’t allow it……
F1Racer
September 4th, 2008 at 12:33
The simplicity of it all seems quite clear.
Simbin are moving into the console market whatever happens next. What they are now saying is (however much you choose to read into it), that they`ll only keep on with PC too if the sim-community behaves itself with regards to cross conversions.
Then they are laying the ball firmly in our court.
I think we all know the outcome of that. Those who are 100% legit, will remain so and DO care about their racing sims future, are probably and unfortunately in the minority.
I dont think its fair to lay the finding of a solution at our door. Individuals in the community have no control over the actions of the others. All that can be done is for websites not to publish these conversions and any such conversions will go underground, albeit just limiting the damage.
The game makers themselves must take some responsibilty.
How can they complain about GTR-E content being ripped these days ? Surely with the community history they must have known it was going to happen. But it was unavoidable for 2 reasons. 1: By now enough people know how the GTR-E game engine and its file structures work so ripping was easy 2: GTR-E uses that same old game engine and file structure.
Apart from the sim community accepting its responsibilities (which I think it should), Simbins next PC title should have its content protected for its own good but still be open for add-on mods and content.
We as individuals can only do so much.
Mojo
September 4th, 2008 at 15:42
SimBin’s statement and most of the replies here only show how helpless both SimBin and the cimmunity are. Unable to produce interesting content, SimBin tries to threaten the community with migration to console market, and the community responds by demanding content protection, morale etc.
Face it: neither the community nor SimBin can prevent piracy, this is the internet, deal with it. Whoever asks for content protection is a fool, you can’t protect content on a PC. SimBin has been happily living from the money they made with games that add minimal content but charge the full price and expect to run this strategy ad infinitum and now that a lot of people who supported this strategy in the beginning are getting fed up and stop supporting it, they threaten us instead of finally produce a product that out rivals GTR2 in every aspect.
Wil
September 4th, 2008 at 16:05
Considering the lack of proper struture from RACE series and the step back from GTR2 I dont give a damm about SimBin quiting. THey dont stand a chance against PGR and GranTurismo series
.
MAXX
September 4th, 2008 at 16:58
I’ve bought GTR, GTR2, Gt Legends, Race, RACE07 and GTR Evolution.
I can understand the people from Simbin, and i don’t need any conversations from GTR-Evo to older titles.
But me likes to use tracks and Cars seen in old Simbin Titles (Ferrari and Porsche which GTREvo is lacking) in GTR Evo. So, old content in new games seems fine for me. Content from new games to old games is bullshit.
Same is about Converting anything to RFactor. The quality of the conversions can’t reach the original so far i tested it.
Only HistoricGT comes close to the feeling of GTR Legends.
I am happy, that Simbin is publishing Racesims for the PC market, cause there isn’t anything comparable.
just my 2 cents
maxx
MAXX
September 4th, 2008 at 16:59
i forgot to mention, that the main problem of gtr evo for me is, the lack of night races and driver change during endurance races
Pugamall
September 4th, 2008 at 18:55
‘ THey dont stand a chance against PGR and GranTurismo series .’
Wil
You serious ? !!
Wil
September 4th, 2008 at 19:46
Im serious in “arcade departament” budy
hornet
September 4th, 2008 at 19:49
…the obvious solution would be “do like iRacing”. Might even get rid of some of all the wreckers.
Ragster
September 7th, 2008 at 11:24
I tried to voice my concerns at no-grip about this and got some abuse and they ask for me to be banned and then i got banned.How are we to tackle this effectivly if that is going to happen everytime we show our thoughts?.