Sensekhmet: Well, it seems the lawyers are starting to have their say. BATracer has been shut down by Ferrari until they remove ALL of Ferrari content:
http://batracer.com/

oh, then just send F1Racer to help them out! he will put his cape on and solve it! he is working in law-firm, you know!?
and we all (including ferrari lawyers) are “sadly mistaken” about the status of self-made ferrari-content. so, now its up to him to save us all. if he points out his statements he believes to be true to the ferrari-lawyers, all will be good – as he definitely knows it better than all of us silly boys! he just needs to tell them that their “tiny feeble minds” are only “spouting their ignorant nonsense” and therefore they have no right to question anything what happens on BATracer.

f1racer: “So, you think, if I render a Ferrari F1 car, that I have somehow created Ferrari merchandise? LOL. Your ignorance knows no bounds
How can it be THEIR merchandise, you silly little boy. They have no claim on my work at all.”

montoya, i guess its ok to write in a way like f1racer does to other community members (as long as he doesnt use the term “turd”, isnt it?).

danny, dont taunt us: whats f1racers background? we all wanna laugh too, please!

i know art can pretty much be anything but i was meaning it in that specific way. i was not drawing any lines in sand and dont want to get into the whole art thing because it will just lead to unecessary confusion.

maybe you understand what i am refering to in relevance of this topic.

Kramer:
ok first you have realized that i said clothes and tshirts are not art like a photo or pic then in then in yr 2nd sentence you said if i think selling tshirts is legal ?
i dont think clothes is art so of course selling clothes would not be legal. duh!
you got mixed up i think.maybe if it spells Ferradi and looks similar with no sponsors on the car it would be ok because clothes are replicated all the time in the world. anyway this is another story.I only know f1racer from renders and posts i read here from time to time but you say his history like he has done something criminal.you can see from his website he has been contributing to the community for years and years so he must carry some respect with that?other than this i dont think people care wot his history is with you but i think i know where i might put my bets on which of you is the bad one.

I’m not disagreeing with you because I think both sides of this argument has valid points but you say that you dont consider clothing with art on it to be art, and I for the life of me cant work out how that works. Art by its very definition is anything that stirs the emotions or sentiment, so it can pretty much refer to anything. Who is to say that modding is a form of art if artwork on a piece of clothing isnt? I’m quite clueless about law and legal stuff in general but the moment you draw a line in the sand between what is and what isnt art, the entire argument becomes subjective with no real basis.

Danny:
Why arent ferrari clothes with ferrari drawings and colours not a form of expression like ‘art’? Its art on a T shirt isnt it? Do you think if you start selling red ferrari shirts with drawings of schumacher and ferrari on it , it would be legal? Dont make me laugh.Oh and you dont know who F1 racer is and his history so I dont expect you to understand my post.

ok first you have realized that i said clothes and tshirts are not art like a photo or pic then in then in yr 2nd sentence you said if i think selling tshirts is legal ?
i dont think clothes is art so of course selling clothes would not be legal. duh!
you got mixed up i think. maybe if it spells Ferradi and looks similar with no sponsors on the car it would be ok because clothes are replicated all the time in the world. anyway this is another story.

I only know f1racer from renders and posts i read here from time to time but you say his history like he has done something criminal. you can see from his website he has been contributing to the community for years and years so he must carry some respect with that? other than this i dont think people care wot his history is with you but i think i know where i might put my bets on which of you is the bad one.

Kramer: wot do you mean by merchandise? you cant create clothes and stuff but pictures and photos etc are just forms of expression and are different.you cant start making ferrari jumpers and tshirts and just sell them without ferrari coming down on you bigtime. but you can take photos of a ferrari at a racetrack and frame that and sell it. there are grey areas but works of art do carry some excemption from the rules.reading his last post, i think he actually did have the guts to confront you m8 and very well too. you got nailed.but u look to be someone who make someone else not want to talk to u from what I read on your first post here.

Why arent ferrari clothes with ferrari drawings and colours not a form of expression like ‘art’? Its art on a T shirt isnt it? Do you think if you start selling red ferrari shirts with drawings of schumacher and ferrari on it , it would be legal? Dont make me laugh.

Oh and you dont know who F1 racer is and his history so I dont expect you to understand my post.

Danny:
You are contradicting yourself over and over. You claim art work of a ferrari is just an expression and ferrari have no rights to it, but how is that different to you creating your own ferrari merchandise, consisting of ferrari cars, and logos? Thats copyrighted.

wot do you mean by merchandise? you cant create clothes and stuff but pictures and photos etc are just forms of expression and are different.
you cant start making ferrari jumpers and tshirts and just sell them without ferrari coming down on you bigtime. but you can take photos of a ferrari at a racetrack and frame that and sell it. there are grey areas but works of art do carry some excemption from the rules.

As usual you dont have the guts to confront me and run off.

reading his last post, i think he actually did have the guts to confront you m8 and very well too. you got nailed.

but u look to be someone who make someone else not want to talk to u from what I read on your first post here.

F1Racer: So, you think, if I render a Ferrari F1 car, that I have somehow created Ferrari merchandise? LOL. Your ignorance knows no bounds How can it be THEIR merchandise, you silly little boy. They have no claim on my work at all. The trademark infringement can come into play if I sell them off as official products or make believe they are. Otherwise it’s plain artwork and a form of expression. They have no claim to it.<

You are contradicting yourself over and over. You claim art work of a ferrari is just an expression and ferrari have no rights to it, but how is that different to you creating your own ferrari merchandise, consisting of ferrari cars, and logos? Thats copyrighted. The offical product bit is what you just made up as it doesnt matter. If you are profiting from the ferrari trademark then that is illegal. There is no such thing as ‘non offical’ status making it legal.

As usual you dont have the guts to confront me and run off. Weak as usual , but thats to be expected of you.

Now you’re slagging off the entire modding community too? Real smart .

You’ve said I’m clueless and I’ll accept that when you put up a reasonable coherent argument to prove me wrong, backed up with facts just so you can rub it in my face that I was wrong. That is instead of just calling me that without offering a counter-argument. I don’t mind being told I’m wrong if you can produce the true facts of where a person stands in this copyright and trademark infringement scenario. Educate us, please.

Unfortunately a mature reasoned argument or debate is something that is alien to you and you have no intellect or mental ability to pull something like that off.

So, you think, if I render a Ferrari F1 car, that I have somehow created Ferrari merchandise? LOL. Your ignorance knows no bounds
How can it be THEIR merchandise, you silly little boy. They have no claim on my work at all. The trademark infringement can come into play if I sell them off as official products or make believe they are. Otherwise it’s plain artwork and a form of expression. They have no claim to it.
Maybe Ferrari would like to contact me and claim all their official merchandise that is lying on my website. McLaren and the other teams too for that matter.

Danny, look, you haven’t the slightest concept of what you’re talking about and you are clearly out of your depth with anything bigger than the alphabet and nursery rhymes. Go back to your toys and figuring out what your little winkie is for.

Anyway on another positive note, nice to see you back with such utter desperation to engage with me again. It’s gonna be a 1-post affair though as I figured I would at least reply to you once just for the pleasure of it and to let you know what a complete ignoramous you are whilst I wonder how you ever escaped out of the bucket and how so many millions of other sperm were cheated out of a chance….and now my conversation with you is over.

Oh it was over too soon, but then, c’est la vie.

I predict Danny’s next response will be an amazing tirade of the same regurgitated crap about MMG, Petros, my age and a few random insults thrown in the mix for good measure. It’s all he has in his armory I’m afraid and it’s the weapon equivalent of a spitting. You’re all dried up mate. Same old same old.

Ta-ta forever DD. You’re gonna have to fish in other waters from now on, I ain’t swimming in your lake any more. Don’t get too depressed, there are other guys you can hit on.

I don’t know where you come from but calling people “turds” and stuff like that is not accepted around here. You can argue all you want but please stick to some basic manners.

Unfortunately there are some out there that refuse to give permission and or refuse to respond to requests.

F1Racer: I could ask you the same question.Good luck with that then. Tell you what I`ll sell a framed F1 render, give you all the details and you try and see if you can successfully sue me for it or write to the F1 team involved and tell them what I’ve done.Bear in mind I’ve had F1 and Indycar teams contact me in the past for work based on the renders I did of their cars.Also you can visit many 3D forums and see renders of things from movies and stuff that usually is trademarks belonging to film companies or large corporations. Its all legal and as your work you can sell if if you please.Its a form of art and theres nothing lawyers or judges can do. I invite them to try.And you can back this up with some evidence ? Remember we are talking about free artwork here.Hmmm slight difference here. I would imagine that this clothing companies were not giving away their clothes but rather profiting from it ? Thats a whole different deal.But don’t ya love this crap where a company uses a symbol and that precludes anyone else in the world from using a similar symbol in anything they do. Pathetic.So if I paint a Ferrari F1 I must remove all ads and sponsors before selling it ?Maybe I should remove their trademark colour too. Oh and their trademark carshape, hmmm now I have a canvas with 4 wheels on it… uh oh, better remove the Bridgestone logo’s…and the BBS lettering off the rims.Oh now it looks silly. So yeah it must be illegal to paint, draw or sketch an F1 car and have someone buy it in a gallery.Really ? You really believe this ?You misunderstand that one. Do you think then that modders have no say in how or where their own work gets used in commercial environments ? If you know me well enough then the answer to the question is yes, I could have easily packed more than 5 into 1 sentence.However it was not meant as an insult and I fail to see why you took it as one.Try and be a bit less sensitive.

So under your logic your allowed to create and sell Ferrari merchandise legally. Its just artwork that you personally created right? Why dont you start your own little merchandise factory and see how far you get? lol.

No ones going to bother going after a drawing in an art gallery but technically it is most probably illegal.

As far as Im aware, providing your ‘artwork’ whether it be a mod or whatever does not appear to be, or come across as, an official or endorsed product without any affiliation to the trademark/copyright owners, you are ok.

For example, as stated before, if I make a render of a Ferrari F60 and frame it and put it up for sale on Ebay, I cannot in any way make it look like it is an endorsed or official product relating to Ferrari. If I do, theres trouble.
It has to be clear that its non official and an original piece of art and an expression of my vision of the car.
Same with mods. They are artwork that are a persons expression of what they saw on the original. It must be clear that their is no afficilation with the company that has been reproduced.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think this is how it goes. Of course we know there are different laws in different countries but essentially it is more or less the same where copyright and trademark infringement is concerned.

A)there are a variety of commercial/promotional licensing options available from ISI as well as dedicated commercial software solutions (like the above mentioned rF Event). Going out and buying a copy of rF off the shelf for these purposes doesn’t cut it and,

B)most modder content is illegal for commercial/promotional use in any way or form…whether you have permission from the mod creator or not. Example, Sony owns the gaming rights for F1, Simbin for other FIA series. They pay a ton of money to acquire those rights so they can create a product to, in turn, make money. The minute you start showing a mod that in some (many) cases, is better than the sanctioned/licensed product put out by the license holder, you will be setting yourself up for problems.

This is the way it is. Rules are rules and business is business.

There is a good possibility that the event in this video is also legit. Who knows, MMG may have also approved the use of their car.

No need to jump to conclusions.

sdr:
who tells you that you arent wrong? yourself?

I could ask you the same question.

if you sell your pics like in your mentioned site and advertise for them using words/trademarks like ferrari etc…yes, me and a lot of lawyers around the world are thinking that seriously in our wildest dreams.

Good luck with that then. Tell you what I`ll sell a framed F1 render, give you all the details and you try and see if you can successfully sue me for it or write to the F1 team involved and tell them what I’ve done.
Bear in mind I’ve had F1 and Indycar teams contact me in the past for work based on the renders I did of their cars.
Also you can visit many 3D forums and see renders of things from movies and stuff that usually is trademarks belonging to film companies or large corporations. Its all legal and as your work you can sell if if you please.
Its a form of art and theres nothing lawyers or judges can do. I invite them to try.

this is what you think for yourself, and it is like it should be for us racing-fans and guys like us think its the most sane way. but lawyers and judges think differently about it.

And you can back this up with some evidence ? Remember we are talking about free artwork here.

only 2 weeks ago, a lot of private people and small companies got cease-and-desist letters from clothing company jack wolfskin because they used a wolf-claw-symbol for their own stuff. most of them didnt even think of the company, they just used a wolf-claw for various reasons.
no one liked it, but it was the companies right and nobody could do anything legal about it.

Hmmm slight difference here. I would imagine that this clothing companies were not giving away their clothes but rather profiting from it ? Thats a whole different deal.
But don’t ya love this crap where a company uses a symbol and that precludes anyone else in the world from using a similar symbol in anything they do. Pathetic.

maybe the painting, but not the trademarks used on it. even if they painted them theirselfs!

So if I paint a Ferrari F1 I must remove all ads and sponsors before selling it ?
Maybe I should remove their trademark colour too. Oh and their trademark carshape, hmmm now I have a canvas with 4 wheels on it… uh oh, better remove the Bridgestone logo’s…and the BBS lettering off the rims.
Oh now it looks silly. So yeah it must be illegal to paint, draw or sketch an F1 car and have someone buy it in a gallery.
Really ? You really believe this ?

you/we would wish it was so, because it appears to us as most logical way.
the modders have the right to file complain messages and mclaren has the full right to send them automatically to thrash, not even answering them. and that would be all for mclaren.

You misunderstand that one. Do you think then that modders have no say in how or where their own work gets used in commercial environments ?

couldnt you pack more than 5 insults in one sentence? or are you running out of arguments?no need to comment the rest of your post, because its you who is repeating. and me not insulting you….because im such a nice guy!

If you know me well enough then the answer to the question is yes, I could have easily packed more than 5 into 1 sentence.
However it was not meant as an insult and I fail to see why you took it as one.
Try and be a bit less sensitive.

Husky42Within the legal realm when something is used without explicit license from the owner of that series it is indeed a offense and punishable by law.If i “couldnt more be wrong” Mr smart guy,A1GP and BTCC both cannot be reproduced and called the same entity due to legal threats by the series against modders.

I was hoping you would bring that up.
A1Gp and BTCC threatened sure. But if the mods are not commercial and totally non profit, I doubt there’s a whole lot they could or would do if push came to shove. Scare tactics.
Example, if I make an A1GP mod and keep it to myself on my computer, am I breaking any laws or copyrights ? Is my digital drawing of a livery any different to me representing with a drawing or a painting ? A render even ?
Now, lets say I share this A1GP mod with a friend, is that any more wrong ?
Now I share with a whole bunch of friends, any more wrong yet ?
Now I put it on a webpage so more people can use it. No money remember. Just me sharing my artwork and car model. Same as I share my renders – which I am free to sell I might add.

Reproducing the A1GP or BTCC series is no different from doing an F1 or Nascar mod. Its digital art and no-one is profiting. Theres nothing they can do.
They can threaten as a scare tactic but thats a whole different thing to actually going to court. A whole lot more different too if a mod groups members are spread across the globe.

Getting back to the renders thing… there is nothing to stop me printing out my renders (with me graciously asking permission from the mod team first out of politeness) and selling them. Consider it a digital painting which we know are not illegal to sell.
If it were it would get ridiculous. It would mean you could never legally sell a painting of a photo that contained a trademark of any kind. Clearly that is not the case.

I’m not saying Im smart as you put it, but I have the advantage of working for a law firm and Ive had these discussions in the past.

And technically when using a trademarked/copyrighted image for financial gain and passing an item off as endorsed or created by such company that you are presenting you can be held liable for trademark law infringement.

This is irrelevant because that practice is a whole different discussion.