Oli Webb Test Drives Project CARS

The Slightly Mad Studios offices are slowly becoming the place to be for professional race car drivers. Following former Stig Ben Collins a few weeks ago, Oliver “Oli” Webb joined the SMS crew for a test session with the studio’s Project CARS title yesterday.

Aside from being a stalwart competitior in open-wheel series like the British Formula Three and the Formula Renault 3.5 series, Oli is also involved with Briggs Automotive and their BAC Mono sports car, making him the perfect guy to give the pCARS version of the car a spin.

You can watch him drive the virtual Mono in the video below, followed up by a brief feedback chat with SMS’ Creative Director Andy Tudor and Lead Producer Pete Morish.

Project CARS will be available for the PC, PlayStation 4, Xbox One, Steam OS, and Wii U starting Fall 2014. More info can be found on the WMD website.

GTOmegaRacing.com

  • Troels Hadberg

    Colors/artwork is okay, but this simrig, for the time that looks to have been put to it, has got to be one of the ugliest yet. Oh well, I hope they use the feedback wisely :)

    • Anonymous

      The rig is an old GT Legends unit from ~2005 when they were Blimey! Games.

      • Troels Hadberg

        Yes, I can tell by the art, which is cool though :)

  • Anonymous

    Face of the SMS guy at the left says: “WTF he is talking about !?!?! Why this words aren’t about graphics ?”

    • Big Ron

      Maybe because it´s Andy Tudor, the Creative Director of SMS. So, yes….he´s basically more knowledge about the visuals than the physics. Which doesn´t mean he has no knowledge about the physics-part :)

  • Weyland-Yutani

    Dat Mini Moke sim rig lol

    • Anonymous

      I see it as a classic piece of nostalgia just like the software it’s based from! :)

  • LogiForce

    And some people still think there isn’t any focus on physics. -_-’

    I am glad to see more advice from the people who actually were test drivers for the cars. In this case Oliver Webb being the BAC Mono test driver.
    The more input the better. Yet, the less feedback coming from these professionals the better the WMD Community and SMS worked together to get the perfect result.

  • Justin Schmidt

    at the end, there should be another lap of him with everything what he mentioned fixed. i remember mr. bell talking about their physics engine right before pcars started. he stated that it’s the most advanced in the business and that it’s only a setup thing. if it is than this should be easily fixable right!

    being sarcastic because i know it wasn’t true hence almost everything had to be made from scratch since then.

    • Anonymous

      I support pCARS, though I’ve been somewhat disappointed as to the fact that the engine, physics were not at all like they stated when first started. I remember them stating specifically that the physics engine was developed and only tweaking would be required for different cars.

      I even remember seeing a truck racing games, screen shots on NG and they talked as if it was a releasable game. I remember reading they are so close that is was scary. Well where is it? I don’t mind waiting… but now we’re 1+ year going into 2+ years for something that was described as “So Close” its only a matter of developing the game…. not the car physics engine.

      Again I support pCARS and own multiple manager levels.

  • knob

    “Feels like driving on carpet!”

    -Oli Webb

    • Anonymous

      So you’re a shameless liar (and a knob, obviously :-)) ).

      That’s a false attribution. Oliver Webb did in fact speak quite highly of the sim and the Mono. There are more details on that in the WMD forum.

  • Hurdy Hurdy

    Looks like he over dressed slightly, lol.

    • Anonymous

      Hmmm what a Madman he should have fit in Slightly well then!!!

    • Justin Schmidt

      nah he’s not overdressed. he was in london for the brdc awards.

  • Anonymous

    Love seeing more race drivers giving opinions. It’s helping tremendously.

    Weird that with a triple screen setup they wouldn’t have a more realistic FOV, though. I wish I had triple screens. :(

    • Ghoults

      Is there even one sim out there that is good because of “real driver feedback” instead of using real numbers for the cars. Once you start to adjust real numbers based on feelings you are imho not making a simulator anymore.

      Human mind has strengths and weaknesses. We know that memory can be very unreliable source of facts and using someone’s memories to create a simulation sounds nothing more than a marketing trick imho.

      How can the driver telling the developer that the car feels wrong under braking make any difference? How does the developer use that information to decide whether the problem is with the physics engine, is it the tires, is it the suspension geometry, is it the dampers, is it the track bumpyness, is it the brake bias. Or is it the setup which can make HUGE difference. And there are tens more numbers under each of those categories that can make the car drive strangely.

      Real drivers can get lost into setups. That’s why you only make small changes. Even in real car. But yet with drivers giving advices on sim physics the same drivers can suddenly give feedback about the whole car. And not just the car but all the code that makes the car drive and react…

      For example rear suspension geometry that has bump steer can feel really strange under braking. Or your code for arbs could be wrong and you get wrong numbers simply because your code uses individual tire suspension travel to determine the arb stiffness and forces despite the arb being the part that connects both sides of the suspension. The list is endless. And all these (rear bump steer, arb bugs etc.) are all problems that never happen in real race cars the drivers drive because the engineer at the factory designs the car and the parts in such way that you can not even make those problems appear unless you create your parts for the car. It is impossible to have a car that has wrong physics in real life.

      • Anonymous

        “Is there even one sim out there that is good because of “real driver feedback” instead of using real numbers for the cars.”

        You tell me. Which sims have had continuous critical testing by professional race drivers during the full development cycle, and how did they fare? Are you suggesting that a sim will become worse due to pro driver testing? And I’m not talking poster boys, but active critical testers.

        “Once you start to adjust real numbers based on feelings you are imho not making a simulator anymore.”

        Parameter tuning is a crucial aspect of numerical simulations. Refusing to tune your simulation of real life phenomena will generally result in inaccuracies. There are plenty of articles and papers on the subject if you’re interested. Additionally all racing sims are approximations, and are dependent on tuning. Do you really think there’s any racing sims that hasn’t had it’s simulation parameters tuned?

        “But yet with drivers giving advices on sim physics the same drivers can suddenly give feedback about the whole car.

        I’m not sure exactly what you mean by that sentence, but who are better qualified to give feedback about the cars than professional drivers?

        “And not just the car but all the code that makes the car drive and react…”

        Bollocks. The test drivers obviously don’t give feedback about the code; they only comment on the behaviour of the simulation.

      • Realkman666

        Pro drivers expect nothing. The game is so far from real life that they’ll think it’s nice if the colour palette is similar.

        F1 2010 : Unprecedented authenticity – Codemasters has used its unprecedented access to the world of Formula One to connect the development team directly with Formula One teams and tyre manufacturers. Extensive consultancy has taken place with a range of F1 professionals, including race engineers, mechanics and drivers. This real world experience is combined with F1 data, including CAD and on-board telemetry, to deliver a race experience complete with authentic handling, accurate circuits and precisely modelled racing cars. To ensure fans get the ultimate racing experience, former F1 driver Anthony Davidson has been embedded into the Codemasters development team as Technical Consultant to advise on handling and performance.

      • GamerMuscle

        Yep this is the thing i think allot of “simracers” want to believe sim-racing is a substitute for real racing , fact is though it shares some things and some transferable skills its a compleately different activity.

      • Mario Strada

        Well, of course it’s not exactly the same thing. It’s a simulation, which doesn’t necessarily means “perfectly identical” but “simulated”. I think simracing is a sport/hobby/game in its own right that has some advantages over the real thing (Cost, availability, flexibility, variety, safety, etc.) and some disadvantages.
        Of course if I had the money, I would be racing my own racecar. But even if I were filthy rich I would not be able to race a Lotus 49 at SPA as it was back then. Enter the simulation.

        Personally I think that the input of real racecar drivers, especially those familiar with the car is important and can serve as a good check of how well the car simulates reality. Then it is up to the programmer to translate that into a simulated car that will be as close to reality as the framework can make it.

        In both sims and real life the components and the setup of the car can make a huge difference. As long as the simulated car responds in a realistic way to my changes and it is a good approximation I am happy.

        When Barrichello races Game Stock car I am sure he finds the sim a far cry from the real experience, but apparently that’s not enough to make him complaint about it or give up on it.

      • GamerMuscle

        Yah I agree I think real drivers will add value to a product , its just that it cannot be used as an indicator of a products end quality or realism.

        Obviously specific driver feedback is far less important than the ability of the physics programmer to build a solid engine in the first place.

      • Anonymous

        And you have no idea, if SMS has not built a solid physics engine! So why keep harping on it, as if they haven’t? Your clueless. We get it!

      • Anonymous

        While some of the stuff you post is laughable or nit picky I agree with this one 100%. Sim Racing has to mimic Real Life in a virtual way and there is a bag of tricks to do that far above just some data sheet.

      • Mark Quigley

        You just can not simulate “been flatout for 3 miles, now need to brake hard, is something going to snap dumping me into the weeds @ 170mph” fear.

      • Anonymous

        “Pro drivers expect nothing.”

        They expect the behaviour to resemble real life. Have you read the reports by Ben Collins an Nicholas Hamilton?

        So you’re insinuating that since Ben and Nic are working for SMS they only care about the colour palette, whereas Anthony Davidson works for Codemasters so he must ensure “Unprecedented authenticity”. Yeah right, that stands to reason.

      • Anonymous

        ……no……..thats…..thats not what hes saying…………(facepalm)

      • Anonymous

        …sure sounds that way.

      • Realkman666

        The behaviour will never resemble real life to them, because they actually know what it feels like.

      • Ghoults

        There are many papers indeed why in simulation you try to exclude the humans factors instead of making them more prevalent. With racing sims the fudging of the facts has always resulted in unrealistic result. We all remember the gtr1 and gtr2 with their unrealistic slip curves. Cars losing all traction after the peak slip angle. All because of humans not accepting the real data and using their “feel”. “Race cars must be difficult to drive so let me set this number that should be 96% to 30%…”

        Pcars is the most newest sim that has tried that driver feedback approach. I don’t think that approach compares favourable at all if you take a look what real numbers can do (game stock car).

        As for the part of my post you did not understand.. What I meant was that real drivers when adjusting the real car with all the telemetry in the world have to be cautious about not changing too much about the car. Because you get lost into the setup. In other words they can not point out what is causing what. Was it the arb or the tires pressures or the aero that made the car to do that.. Yet in sims we expect these same drivers to have so infinitely precise feel that they can feel some miniscule changes through ffb steering wheel and looking at the screen while they could not do the same thing in the real car with 100% accurate physical feedback from the seat, the wheel, the pedals and all other senses a human being has.

        The best cars are tuned by numbers. If the numbers are wrong the feel is wrong. But if the numbers are right it can still feel wrong because feelings are memories and human being does not have precise memory. We remember what we want, not what actually happened.

        The real opinion should come from the data. Telemetry and cad data that shows the real suspensions geometries. Aero data, engine dyno data. Would you adjust engine torque curve based on how it feels? How close do you think you can get if you want to create an engine in sim that you have in your real car? you wouldn’t adjust engine torque curves based on driver feedback so why would you adjust tires, aero, suspension and physics engine code?

      • Anonymous

        I refer you to BC72′s posting above. Racing sims capable of running on PCs are quite simplified. A lot of variables are missing, and tuning is necessary.

        As a matter of fact, the tuning done in pCARS is based on both data and driver assessments, as it should be. Your reference to the GTR sims is flawed, they used even more simplified models than what’s used today, like other sims at the time, and they all suffered from “problematic” slip/grip characteristics, in general making them far to hard to drive intuitively.

        There is no such things as racing sim physics engines coded perfectly, with all variables, filled in with perfect data, so that you can just key in the numbers and ship it. And yes, setups adds to the complexity and uncertainty – all the more reason to tune things once you know you have the best algorithms and data.

        I’m not sure exactly how we got here from Oli’s visit to the SMS offices, but it doesn’t harm to cast some light on the matter :-)

        At the end of the day, I for one, do not want to drive a flawed spreadsheet. I’ll wager that if it doesn’t _feel_ like driving, then it’s not a good simulation, no matter how much blind confidence you have in “just the numbers” and nothing else.

      • Ghoults

        If the sim doesn’t work with real numbers your sim physics engine is broken. It is horribly wrong to start fudging the numbers when you should be fixing the physics engine. Personally I don’t know one single sim physics engine that doesn’t handle realistic with real numbers. The old rfactor engine handles magnificently with real numbers but drives like poo when your numbers are wrong. Adjusting wrong numbers by feel only makes problems worse and from engineering point of view makes it impossible to say where the problem is after all values are wrong after a bit of “fudging”.

        It is not about blind confidence in numbers. It is about being scientific about the whole thing! Figure out what some number means, figure out what it is for the car you are creating. Put the numbers in for the whole car. Then try to compare to telemetry using similar conditions as the telemetry has to see if the number produce realistic result. There is no blind faith in numbers. There is knowledge, experimentation and reproducible result.

        Flawed spreadsheet is a result of fudging the number based on feel.

      • Anonymous

        Or all the anecdotes of race drivers coming into the pits complaining of a handling issue, the engineer gets under the car and makes some noises, tells the driver to try again and he’s happy the problem is fixed… even though nothing changed on the car. I know that’s a common test given to vehicle/tire development drivers to make sure they know what they’re talking about.

        Similarly in sim racing, the placebo effect can be very strong indeed. I’ve seen drivers in iRacing complaining about the baseline setup who immediately gain half a second or more when given the same setup renamed and told it is a fast setup.

        I won’t say Oli doesn’t know how to sort those impressions out, but the effects are common enough to consider likely much of the time.

      • Ayrton Archangel

        I think what you are not taking into consideration is the fact that, as far as I know, there is not one physics engine out there that perfectly replicates the real world. So what do you think happens when you put real world numbers into an imperfect physics engine? Until someone invents a perfect physics engine, I am talking about a physics engine that replicates the real world exactly, then I think using real world drivers with real world experience is a great way to compensate for the engines imperfections.

      • Anonymous

        To take this a step further… All of the items that Ghoults mentioned are part of the ‘physics’. For example, rear bump steer; what causes it? Suspension geometry. If the geometry is accurate, the bump steer will fall out much the same way it does in real life. The key, though, is ‘much the same way’. If one could account for every variable in a sim, they would indeed be able to put together a perfect sim car. However, it isn’t realistic to do that. Do you think the physics engine is accounting for flex of the a-arm or bushings? No, it isn’t practical (processing power) nor possible (where do you get all the details on every last component such as the metal alloys used, bushing durometers. etc?). As such, ‘fudge factors’ are introduce those variables. This is where that black art is introduced. Will leave it at that…. ;)

      • Ghoults

        Fudge factors are included because the developers lack the real data or don’t accept it and want to adjust the game to feel like they want. Details of the alloys, flex of the drivetrain and suspension parts are of course relatively unknown (not that those parts aren’t modelled in fem to minimize flex and deformation before the part is made and put into the car). People call it black art, I call it fake.

        And before anyone comes here to say very little is know about tires and that they are black art – it isn’t true. The basic qualities of the tires are well understood. Problems start to arise when we talk about tire wear, heat and grip in one sentence… How the tire reacts to difference slip angles, different loads and cambers is not black magic at all.

      • Anonymous

        Do you really believe that these developers are privy to the secrets involved with making a car or tire?! Even with agreements in place, the amount of info coming from the manufacturers varies widely. Some don’t even provide the basic details. (this is based on what I have seen in the PCars development, so it is not first hand) No way Pirelli is going to give away their secret sauce for their tires.

        Wow…

      • Ghoults

        Yeah and game stock is so awesome because they have so in-depth access… or because they fudge stuff… nope.

      • Anonymous

        “How can the driver telling the developer that the car feels wrong under braking make any difference?”

        As ModernTimes2 has already responded with a length reply, let me just take this statement and say: Go to the WMD forums. If you want to see how the driver/developer back and forth goes it’s going on all the time between SMS devs and Nic Hamilton and Ben Collins. In fact, now that both race drivers are active they feed off each other and are incredibly good and identifying areas of work and possible causes.

        It’s happening, you just need to see it.

      • Anonymous

        “How can the driver telling the developer that the car feels wrong under
        braking make any difference? How does the developer use that information
        to decide whether the problem is with the physics engine, is it the
        tires, is it the suspension geometry, is it the dampers, is it the track
        bumpyness, is it the brake bias.”

        By informing the developers they need to go back to the numbers because something is off.

        IMO, that’s the fundamental difference between a sim developer and ‘someone else’. When developing a sim the driver feedback is used to indicate flaws in the modeling and the developer digs into the data and telemetry to determine the root cause, rather than just saying ‘let me make it understeer more here’ without caring which of the above circumstances caused the issue.

      • Anonymous

        And in the case of pCARS, the feedback by the pro drivers and many competent members, including the usage of telemetry, largely goes into the ongoing development of the tyre model.

      • Anonymous

        Well I think it’s quite a laugh that so many self apointed Sim-experts, think you can just digitize reality and turn it into a simulation. Your, they’re obviously deluded about the state of the art.

  • Roger Wallentin

    Great, specific car handling feedback from someone who has driven the real car properly IRL!

    Matching real physics numbers in the engine with driver feedback to get the setup and final tweaks just right is the best way to go IMO

    Need to give pCars another go soon, it has been a few months since I last tried it. Sounds like the engine sounds have been improved a lot on the Mono as well.

  • GamerMuscle

    The camera being shuntily moved across to show the guy typing what is being said , to prove that they are making notes and taking into consideration what a real world driver is saying because that obviously makes the game legitimate as a simulator is quite laughably contrived.

    Especially given that this is a video in the first place and you can obviously take notes from the video….

    Though I have to say these ones are less contrived than the simraceway videos , where they had the guy taking notes with a wooden clipboard !

    http://youtu.be/A2LrA_4zaaU?t=2m26s

    I think you can get a degree of validation from having real world drivers say oh this seem right that seems right , but ultimately you need the guy/girl who is doing the tire model / car physics to be able to drive to a reasonable standard to know what’s right or wrong and then make refinements based on telemetry and by doing blind testing.

    I honestly think the type of feedback a real world driver gives in this sort of situation is of more use once you have the underlying physics working to a high level.

    As I’m sure most know these videos are as much about promoting the idea that “P CARS IS LISTENING TO REAL WORLD DRIVERS SO WE ARE A REAL LEGIT SIMULATOR ” than it is necessarily about actually having something that benefits the simulation.

    Which is fine its a commercial product and these are reasonably good viral marketing tools.

    Again I know some people will take what I have said and re-word it so ill be clear

    1) Real world drivers clearly do add value to a product
    2) I’m sure SMS are trying to build a simulator
    3) I’m sure SMS do get value from this feed back as would anyone
    4) I’d like Pcars to be a good sim and some aspects of the product are already very likeable
    5) I think these are good promotional videos

    • Anonymous

      Do you honestly believe that all these drivers make their way to the SMS HQ only to produce a less than three minute video that only a few thousand people will ever see?

      Come on… this is absurd. The video shows a tiny bit of what went down during the visit for the sole purpose of involving the community and allowing everyone to take a little look at what happened instead of just saying “Oli Webb was there and we discussed a lot of stuff”.

      It’s kind of funny what you’re projecting into the most harmless stuff. The fact that notes are being taken during a meeting is simply normal business and nothing else.

      • GamerMuscle

        Right , I even said at the end of my comment

        “Again I know some people will take what I have said and re-word it”

        you then comment with ..

        “Do you honestly believe that all these drivers make their way to the SMS HQ only to produce a less than three minute video that only a few thousand people will ever see?”

        You just presented a loaded question that was unrelated to anything I said in an attempt to dismiss what was actually said in my comment.

        “It’s kind of funny what you’re projecting into the most harmless stuff.”

        What did I project ? I was talking directly about a promotional video and then giving a reasonable comment about the possible limitations of driver feedback.

        Obviously I and everyone knows this is just a promo video I’m sure the driver spent longer at SMS and we all know ben and nick have given detailed feedback who said otherwise ?

        You are the one that’s “projecting” actually read through what was said in my comment and think of my comment as if it was written by someone that likes Pcars , or as someone that is neutral and just fascinated by interactive media.

        I often find it a good exercises to read what people write applying positive and negative assumptions to what the underlying message was and then ask a question on things where I’m uncertain as to what they were conveying.

      • kahel grahf

        (The following test need to be read with a soft and calm voice to get the spirit of is writer (with poor english skills), of course skipping it would be an even better choice in my opinion…)

        _______________________________________________

        He was being moderate in is comments even if not 100% accurate. I don’t know anybody that are able to produce perfect statement, do you?…
        You, otherwise give the feeling of trying really hard to stretch things, to make it sound absurd (your own words) instead of arguing…when, sure…gamermuscle need to put things into perspective a little more if not a lot…
        Nevertheless saying it’s absurd, is the absurd, shortsighted or dishonest part (i’m generous enough to let you choose)…not to mention the lowest possible level of argumentation even if i acknowledge that being of bad faith has it benefits (e.g politics).
        Bottom line, like often, the “truth” is somewhere between the two of you…and till now you have been the one preventing it to be found…but it’s never too late…or maybe like myself you find the truth overrated.

        Feel free correct me, or add anything to what i’ll admit is also a unconsidered, thoughtless comment on some level…

    • Anonymous

      “Especially given that this is a video in the first place and you can obviously take notes from the video….”

      I doubt they filmed the entire visit, they’e not making a TV show, so taking notes seems logical…

      • GamerMuscle

        “I doubt they filmed the entire visit” – I Agree

        “they’e not making a TV show” – Obviously

        “so taking notes seems logical” – I Agree

        You might not have noticed but that part of the comment was more poking fun at the format and the method of presentation of the fact that someone is taking notes , hence why I also compared it with the somewhat contrived SRW videos.

    • Gumshoe

      ‘taking into consideration what a real world driver is saying because
      that obviously makes the game legitimate as a simulator is quite
      laughably contrived’
      - or it’s just helpful input from a professional that really will help the game reflect the real life car(s). It’s serious feedback, not token ‘famous guy’ service.

      ’2) I’m sure SMS are trying to build a simulator’

      - or they are actually building a simulator.

      ‘As I’m sure most know these videos are as much about promoting the idea
      that “P CARS IS LISTENING TO REAL WORLD DRIVERS SO WE ARE A REAL LEGIT
      SIMULATOR ” than it is necessarily about actually having something that
      benefits the simulation’

      - Or it’s something that is actually very cool and useful and SMS want to share it, because of that. And sure a bit of self promotion is good for the product.

      People like you that have agendas in their posts but then claim to be all unbiased, fair and all good and honest by picking and choosing things thereafter are annoying.

      If you have an opinion, just state it honestly. Your previous post history goes against your view of ‘I often find it a good exercises to read what people write applying positive and negative assumptions to what the underlying message was and then ask a question on things where I’m uncertain as to what they were conveying.’

      • GamerMuscle

        “Again I know some people will take what I have said and re-word it” ….

      • Anonymous

        Well, you opened yourself to that one, so why do you feel the need to rehash?

        Not unlike: “You suck!”….”No offense”

        You think adding a disclaimer to the end of your post changes anything in the post?!

      • GamerMuscle

        Only it wasn’t a disclaimer and not at all analogous to what you are suggesting.

      • Anonymous

        Disagree.

      • kahel grahf

        Counter-disagree…

      • GamerMuscle

        Re disagree and agree but am not sure ‽

      • kahel grahf

        One can hope disclaimer would encourage people to double check what one meant without caricaturing it…

        I know right…how naive.

      • Gumshoe

        Including yourself :)

        If you are so sure people will do that, you didn’t word it properly in the first place…

      • GamerMuscle

        Well I’m hardly Shakespeare and I don’t think anyone could word anything about Pcars without the Pcar’s fan-base coming to kneecap you.

      • kahel grahf

        Let’s try it…

        Pcars ‘apha software’ had poorly optimized visuals…last time i checked…having said that, i acknowledge that visuals are still in WIP (thank god)…

        I think my kneecaps are safe…

    • Anonymous

      Your not winning any new friends by casting mud.

      • GamerMuscle

        I’m not casting mud , the people “casting mud” are the overly sensitive Pcars fans/investors re-wording what I said.

        Anyone that watches my videos knows I’m generally positive about things.

      • Big Ron

        Anyone watching your videos just knows that you are commenting your experiences with nonsense-comparisons and jokes. I wouldn´t call that overly positive attitude. And you as an known AC/ Netkar-fan aren´t casting mud with always finding anything negative to say in pCARS-articles? I would say you should shut up once in a while if you have nothing senseful to say.

        Or how does it come that there are always people like you coming into an article about some informative facts just to find a way to pull it down? You might have noticed that the audio of the video is quite bad and you often don´t hear what he´s saying (because his speaking direction is averted from the camera and distance too far), so why shouldn´t they just write notes into the laptop when sitting beside him instead of using this bad-audio video? Are you serious?

      • kahel grahf

        You should take your own advice into account…i’m just saying…
        The “shut up…if…nothing senseful to say” part, to be clear.

        I don’t agree with everything Gmuscle said, far from it…but at least he doesn’t come up as someone shortsighted…

      • Big Ron

        Well, humbling the developers they would abuse the driver and the video to prove their sumulation-effort and giving the advice to use the bad-audio video to make notes instead of just sitting beside him and making notes instantly isn´t short sighted?

      • kahel grahf

        No wonder we disagree…either i misread the all thing or you are being (a bit) caricatural…
        Let’s say i’m wrong and should double check myself…even so…i still think both yours answers, MontoyaVR one and some others, where inappropriate…but it’s time to move on for now.

      • GamerMuscle

        I’m a fan of AC NKP and GSC becuse they are awesome !

        “always finding anything negative to say in pCARS-articles”

        My comment was not even negative … It simply pointed out how these videos by SMS and SRW with a guy taking notes can come across as contrived and have somewhat amusing elements to them.

        I upset the Pcars investor army though so off to the gallows for me !

        Not sure why people are so ridiculously defensive about Pcars I think its likely to sell well and the end product will always stand up for itself , such is the beauty of video games , unless the game happens to be RBR.

      • Big Ron

        You know why people are sensitive about pCARS? Because 80% of the people here didn´t even gave SMS the chance to show their ability to make a good sim. Most people always try to find the same negatives instead of just waiting and see how it comes out when it is at a stage where AC or rF2 is. But that´s not possible since Kunso, iRacing and ISI hided their sims until they were in a presentable stage, but pCARS doesn´t become perfect within a week and it´s not a sim anymore. ATM they are really trying to sort things, but most people just ride around on the same arguments and not even showing any patience or instead leave their hands of the game until it´s presentable.

        And you know, AC isn´t as awesome as you might think . From what I´ve seen about AC it´s another driving simulator, but probably won´t be a great racing simulator (which needs to be proven as much as pCARS needs to prove it). From AC-forum:

        “-Get stuck in sand?
        -Start engine as in Netkar?
        -Change tires and fixing car uses session time?
        -No jump to track.
        -Need to return to pits in practice and qualifying sessions?
        -In severe crash end of session?
        -Career mode season budget expenditure and income from good results and advertising.reply

        None of them will be implemented.
        Sorry.”
        ——————————————————————–
        As great as AC is and how good it drives, but for the dry experience of driving a car I could even play Gran Turismo.

        Oops, now I touched the holy grail. Sorry for that. AC isn´t as great as if everybody is forced to buy it, I didn´t. Every sim has its flaws. It just depends if you want to see them or not and how much of a deal you make out of it.

  • Kev

    Unfortunate that they have these guys only driving one of the cars. If they drove several perhaps they could draw better conclusions regarding what needs to change with the physics engine vs the individual car model/setup. Also, when you fix one problem you may create another which is why anydcriver feedback should be iterative with numerous sessions IMO.

    • Anonymous

      “These guys” (Ben & Nic) drive various cars and provide a lot of iterative feedback.

      This article was about Oliver Webb’s first visit to the SMS offices, and he did drive more than one car. Maybe he will get more involved like Ben & Nic.

      • T0MMY3688

        but his main focus for the visit is the Bac Mono. I hope he can get more involved like Nic and Ben

  • Mark Quigley

    See when you have to scroll down to finish reading someone’s “comment”, it is no longer a comment, more a short story.

    “yay, shiny” is a comment.
    :D

  • Anonymous

    I have to say this thread is amazing, even by pCARS thread standards. Why is it that something which can only be positive has to be attempted twisted into something negative at any cost?

    Oh well, here’s something positive, Mr. Webb taking the Mono for a lap at Snetterton.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-HtlW-9NeM

  • Noel Hibbard

    More proof that most devs don’t put much effort into minimizing input/display lag. Here they are gathering input from a real driver on a rig with lag. Although very minimal lag, but this could be minimized even more… other sims are lag free. And no, this lag isn’t from the LCD. The lag in that video goes beyond what an LCD adds to the equation. The driver is complaining that when he gets on the brakes the car oversteers which he agrees with but what he doesn’t agree with is the fact that the rear continues to move even after getting off the brakes. This could simply be the fact that what he is seeing is slightly delayed. He probably feels he got off the brakes in time to save the rear when in fact he was 100ms too late. Of course no one wants to believe that lag is a problem. What’s 100ms of lag going to hurt right? That is 29ft at 200mph. Who cares about 29ft right? Duh.

    • Anonymous

      Ah.. not you with this again… Do you remember this discussion:
      http://www.virtualr.net/project-cars-build-432-available
      Below you’ll find Mark Quigleys’ video response… again.

      First of all, there are no sims which are lag free. All sims/rigs have a few tens of ms of lag at best (50ms would be _very_ good). Is the rig in the video above the best, with the best setup? Possibly not, even though it’s kind of hard to get a good fix on it with only a corner of the wheel being visible for a few moments, and I’d have liked it if they showed a finely tweaked setup with the lowest possible lag. But to use that as “proof” that “devs don’t put much effort into minimizing input/display lag” is a bit rich to say the least. BTW the LCD panels used could well add 20ms (or less or more) which would of course exacerbate the lag, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

      The innuendo in your posting is clear, “SMS dev’s don’t care about lag”, and that’s simply not true (for those interested in more, please follow the link above).

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0JNAoAxvuY

      • Noel Hibbard

        For those that don’t want to follow the link above. There was a lag free video posted and I acknowledged it was lag free and asked how he was able to accomplish this and his response was that he used MSI Afterburner to cap his framerate at 40fps. This same method removes lag in AC too. The difference is AC has this option built into the game so you don’t need 3rd party tools. Input lag was a concern on the AC forums and the cap was the fix so they added the cap to the GUI in the next build. I haven’t tested pCARS in a long time. Have they added a frame cap of their own? If not, I stand by my statement that most devs don’t take this problem seriously. BTW, 50ms isn’t the best you can get. My real point in my post though was that the devs clearly dont care about lag if they are inviting people in for opinions and they don’t take the steps necessary to reduce lag.

        Edit: Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said “SMS devs don’t care”. I am simply pointing out that there is a trend amongst most of the newer sims to turn a blind eye to lag.

      • Silvio

        It is impossible to have a system that is totally free of lag, at least for now. Maybe quantum computers will reach a zero lag one day.

      • Noel Hibbard

        Clearly you will never have 0ms lag but this is no excuse to have 50ms+. You guys have such a piss poor argument here.

      • Anonymous

        That’s taking it a bit far. 50ms would be a good achievement for most sims/rigs/monitors/users. In my experience, I doubt many users can get that low. Getting lower generally requires high end equipment, special knowledge, a good bit of tweaking and some luck. Most users won’t have all of that going… I do hope that we all will experience steadily lower lag with advances in all the above areas though :-)

      • Noel Hibbard

        60ms or bellow is VERY obtainable. Even without high end hardware. Over the weekend I am going to do try to do some videos with an iPhone 5S (120fps) with various sims, out of the box and tweaked and see how many frames are buffered on each of them.

        Edit: rF2 has been tested to have 26ms of lag on a monitor that was tested with PRAD to produce 19ms of lag. So take the monitor out of the equation and we are down to 7ms. This is with a frame cap at 60fps and VSync off. Same system and GFX settings but with VSync on and lag went up to 112ms. Just to give some ideas. These tests were done with a PS3 Eye running at 187fps. The GPU was a GTX560Ti. The wheel was a G27. I will do my own tests on a very slow HD5770. We will see how hard it it to achieve 50ms and below which you make sound impossible (without crazy hardware).

      • Anonymous

        I’m not saying it’s impossible, or that you /need crazy hardware/. Please reread, and perhaps refrain from accusing me of putting words in your mouth again ;-) As I say, I doubt that _most_ users are going to see 50ms and less (with the current state of the art).

        The rF2 test, and the freak result of 26ms you refer to (provided that the measurement is indeed correct) is definitely not representative of what most users can achieve. To get that extreme framerate and low lag path, you’ll generally have to do with very reduced visual quality, as well as the ‘requirements’ in my previous posting still apply, and it is known that rF2, like other sims (some in development), have had very variable performance for different users and equipment through their version histories.

        There’s a lot more that could be said about this, but I think it has been debated sufficiently in terms of this VR thread. Anyway, I’m a proponent of low lag, and as I said, I hope we can all see steadily better results – I.e. we want the same thing in this area.

      • Noel Hibbard

        It wasn’t a freak result and it wasn’t at extreme framerates either. I stated that the test was done at 60fps. The tests were also done on an average GPU (gtx560ti). And this isn’t the first test done that shows rF1/2 produce very low lag. pCARS can also produce low lag. I will state again that my point is, to achieve low lag you are required to use external tools. I am only pointing out that the devs need to have their own cap built in. It possibly does now, although I am guessing it still doesn’t or you would have jumped all over me for not knowing. Every other credible sim does.

      • Anonymous

        40 FPS is far from a fluid racing experience.
        Every 3rd frame will be shown twice on screen refresh with a 60hz monitor.

      • Noel Hibbard

        I agree Richard. In pCARS and AC you have to set a frame cap just below your minimum frame rate. The guy in the video that ModernTimes linked to must have had a minimum around 45 so he set the cap to 40. If your frame rate drops below the cap even by 1 frame the frame buffer jumps up and the lag dramatically jumps up too. There are plenty of sims out there that don’t suffer from this. It isn’t impossible like all the fanboys want to make it sound.

      • Mark Quigley

        It was a solution to a problem, from unplayable to playable.

      • Noel Hibbard

        And I don’t fault your solution. 40fps without lag is much better than 120fps WITH lag.

      • Mark Quigley

        I thought pc gamers in general tweaked things to reduce lag, vsync and frame buffers/queues.

        First thing I do in shooters is reduce the lag as much as possible, I will sacrifice everything else, takes me hours or days to get comfy in a new shooter or sim.

        I do not use anything now except settings found in the game, there has been no lag for a while. I get 60 fps now with vsync on. It was “playable” at 40fps

        Thinking about it, you know that “save password” box? the one that disappears before you click it and you are not sure you even clicked it in time? you know the one :D
        The steering is like that now, especially catching slides.

      • kahel grahf

        If you want to reduce lag as much as possible…you should turn vsync off…
        I found it pretty strange for someone that ‘will sacrifice everything else’ to keep vsync on…when it’s commonly known as one of the worst option when it come to input lag…

      • Mark Quigley

        It worked what can I do about that?

      • Anonymous

        I said the _innuendo_ is clear, not putting words in your mouth.

        As you say yourself: “..I am just an anti-pCARS guy in the eyes of most VR readers.”. You shouldn’t be surprised if it seems that way. Maybe it would help the readers to get a different view if you generally changed your tone and approach a little in your pCARS related comments.

        As far as your comments regarding lag and such is about sims in general, I do agree, and I’m all for the lowest possible lag :-)

      • Noel Hibbard

        I am targeting pCARS not because it is pCARS but because it has lag unless you get creative and use 3rd party tools to cap the framerate. AC, rF1, rF2 and iR all have frame caps built in. No 3rd party tools needed. Has pCARS put a cap in their sim yet? Last I checked they hadn’t. This is why I am saying they don’t put much effort into reducing lag. The solution is there but they don’t bother with it because they must consider 100ms and below acceptable. This is the second video posted about real drivers testing pCARS and both had the exact same feedback and both of them could have simply been down to lag. Most of the complaints you hear about pCARS and AC feeling disconnected could simply be due to lag. AC and pCARS produce a totally different feel once you reduce the lag in them. rF1,rF2 and iR don’t require a bunch of monkeying around to reduce lag outside of simply disabling VSync which I think simracing 101 by now. At least the AC devs added the frame cap to the GUI so you don’t need to edit config files. I am not anti-anysim. I own them all. I am however unbias and willing to point out a flaw in any sim. The problem at VR is you can’t point out any flaw in pCARS or AC without getting beaten down. You don’t see me commenting on every pCARS post do you?

    • Noel Hibbard

      Doing a little reading outside of the sim community turns up TONS of complains in almost all gaming comunities about lag and it seems to be more connected to DX10/11 and the typical solution is to implement a frame cap. But what do I know, I am just an anti-pCARS guy in the eyes of most VR readers.

    • Neil

      I’d just like to point out that your method of determining input lag is flawed (based the video in the other thread linked below)

      “Forget the visual steering wheel (because it’s animated independently) much better to look at the front wheels, or in a closed car, the car itself changing direction.” -Andy Garton

      He’s stated this many times over the last 2 years.

      • Noel Hibbard

        This wheel probably is processed in a different thread but the timing difference from one thread to another would be so incredibly small you wouldn’t be able to measure it reliably. This is just a clever way to discount lag. If this method really was flawed then explain why you can reduce the animated wheel lag to next to nothing with a frame count. I haven’t tested in pCARS but in several other sims the lag in the animated wheel matches the lag seen in the front wheels from external views. The next argument will be that the wheels in the external views is also rendered independent. The fact is, the cars feel way more connected when you can reduce the lag. This goes for all sims.

  • Anonymous

    Just been playing Pcars, and I think that guy’s observations are spot on . If they can implement his suggestions it will make the handling a bit more realistic.

    • GamerMuscle

      I don’t think the issue with Pcars is knowledge of what’s wrong , its the insane challenge of getting a physics engine working properly and consistently though all the ranges of what is expected from a car.

      Ben collins and nick ham explained as clearly as I think anyone could how cars are meant to handle in general a long time ago , Thankfully I think due to WMD SMS will have the time to keep poking away until it comes together and even if it doesn’t they have a good product as it is.

      • Anonymous

        Yer, I agree with that.

  • Anonymous

    still my favorite ! hope they nail the physics before release !

  • speed1

    Just jump in and read and at the half i get bored. Always the same, always the same crap everywhere in every blog, this all-knowing people and to each article
    have something to say, is annoying. However thanks for the articles to all participating.

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