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i have a Deja VU… the last ” modding VS Revenue ” discussion was a heavy one. interesting to see what this will turn in to …

Btw there is some discussion in rf2 beta forum and some people tryed to be smart what is modding about, it has changed and we need to consider new ways to keep community whit new content. So im copying here one of my last post there to clear some stuff out to.

And as http://www.unitedracingdesign.com is my team and the idea came from me and Petros.

But here you go:(its a copy paste that was and answer)

As you mentioned, not every simracer is honest which leaves you that since games exist people pirated games itself allready but there are allways people who apriciate the work of game developers and for years modders.
As allways and all around the world people want to have stuff for free. I do it to but sometimes some thing are to expensive to be done for free or it takes to long for the comunity to be finished.
Ive mentioned and explained few situations allready in my other posts.
But you people need to check around what is it and what its offered. Its a product, not just a mod what some people say. Arent actually if we look steerings, game pads or what ever hardware a product beeing sold for existing product to modify youre experiense and have more fun whit it? Arent there gadgets and all sort of stuff for smart phones beeing sold as a MODIFICATION?
Youre not really getting alot of stuff all around for free right except you pirate it right? In other forum ive posted and here about alcohol or cigaretes. You buy a product that you can use which even damanges youre health for those few hours of joy but you buy it and you have to buy it again, same product actually, every day and you dont mind. Tell me why do you all support all this companys around the world?
But when a modder decided to offer you a product than youre all in the air? Its a shame actually that you have this kinda thinking. What exactly is wrong to support us to offer you more, do we steal, do we damage you healt? Do we offer you joy and fun? YES but no, those 5 euros for example are just something you cant do right? Probably to buy a pack of cigareted, 6pack of beer or a redbull is for sure better idea. Yeah let the modders do it for free, they have time and dont need to pay bills or we will just ripp it later, even better idea. Free mod or payable it doesnt mather actually but thats exactly why modding will die out, becase you all support this and once companys will ensure no cars or tracks can be ripped you will stay whit nothing else there than buying only games for each damn series you will want.
Well what ever it is, we have people against this but we have people that support us and want our products as is a case on each game beein out or worked on and i mentione that we are aware that not all wont like this projects but for those not supporting really, do i need to care?

Im happy for those who support us and im happy if they have fun whit it and they enjoy it becase that is what we are doing!

We are not forcing anybody to buy it but have respect to those who want to buy it and want to enjoy it and have respect to what ever we do and for sure community should have more respect to all other modders and there work, free or payware!

I was doing mods for free and im happy people love it but just like on this people didnt like them eather, so what? Really, i cant force anybody to like something if he doesnt so dont complain so much and we can talk about this as much as we want and there wont be end to it.
But a time in life comes when you need to decide what you want to do. I have a family and many other modders have it to. Some went to work for game developers, some freelance as what ever there knowledge allows them. I decided I want to offer community more than i could in past but whit everything around, alot more work needed i decided to go this way.
I knew it will be hard but im holding on it and its my right to fight for my idea and for those who want to support is. Just becase few people have nothing better to do than complain all the time and destroying the community whit supporting all the ripped content i wont quit.

Go around, talk to modders beeing modding for time like i did or even more and you will find many that this isnt a bad idea and beeing aworded in this way to pay the bills, have fun whit the work we love why not? If we are good why shouldnt we charge for it, isnt our work worth something? We are people just like you and we to have to pay bills, why should allways we only work for free so you can enjoy it? So we should actually have a real job and do this to? Why cant we enjoy on something else in our free time and do this as real job? Or you would rather that any modder completly quits? Some here are complaining but never thinking about us to.
Do you want a complete series in rf2 or what ever other game? Probably yes, are you prepared to wait years for it to be finished? Probably no cause for the price we offer you can get it sonner done, done in right quality. Its a product like rf2 that allows you to drive more diferent cars, tracks, complete racing series and we can offer you alot of that.

As i mentioned we will offer licensed content and fictional which will cover all sort of racing experience!

Cheers,
Ales

sure everybody wants to get money out of his hobby. but making the hobby comercial converts it to a buisness.
not a fan of this. now the point of envy grows more and more in the modding-community. waiting for the first model
beeing sold there converted without permission of the original modder…

Nice thinking, i guess youre not really a fan of motorsport or sport overall right? Arent most sporters coming from hobby? Or what exactly are drivers doing or football player? They are hobbying or what now?

I hope you’re successful in making money for your hard work, but I won’t be purchasing – or selling – any kind of mod for the sim’s we drive.

For me, it’s not what modding is about.

The reason I stopped playing iRacing (apart the fanboyism and trolling attitude of a lot of members in the forum) was I got tired of paying over and over again for every content. Even if the quality of the product is good, it’s still a game.

The mods must be at a professional level to sell, you have to look at the flight sim community to see that. Are modding teams able to offer that quality ?

Okey I understand you about the content. But modding has changed and there is tons of reasons. But arent we “modders” worth more than just as free workers? We can offer so much more actually but time doesnt allow us.

For the quality ill say to you so. If you actually look, every sim racing or racing game has 3d/2d, sound, physics artist that came from modding teams and even some coders evolved from moodding teams.

If and when … somebody succeeds to get away with any amount of revenue for a unlicenced model or brand… that day will be the end of modding. Paid mods are not’ mods” by definition, but are ” products ” Appart from licensing, taxes and putting out competition for the big boys, i guess we could make up a list of a hundred controversies regarding this topic. Lets say somebody is putting a model up for sale… and another team decides to do one for free … a better one…, but the modding team that supposed to have the license, would not stand for the other team to release an unlicenced version and so on … i can already see the clouds… :-)

But go ahead… kill the final part of modding that is still left. Money has sickened the world in many territories, and it will do it to ” modding ” eventually. Good thing i have more then one hobby..

I´m not talking of people creating high quality stuff, like sportsman having great skills. I´m talking of people trying to get a piece of the cake, like “sportsman” using doping to get more money, more fame… and i think you know what money did to football. it´s more a modern slave trade than a form of sport…but i think this is getting to far away from this topic ;-)

I have no problem paying for something I enjoy. Even if sometimes I think I will like it but I realize I don;t and I never use it again. The cost is so minimal (game at about $50, iRacing tracks and Cars less than $15) that I really don;t have a issue paying for it. I am not rich, but anyone over 18 enjoying this hobby should have enough money to afford the occasional game or mod. Otherwise, you need to reassess your priorities and invest your time in finding a job.

Heck, in RL I have spent almost $500 before I even wake up and the heat comes on. It’s all downhill from there. In the land of $4.50 fancy coffee where you drink half, toss the rest and the whole experience lasts 10 minutes max, videogames are a bargain and commercial mods even more so.

Payware for flight sims is done by professionals by the likes of Aerosoft, Orbx and A2A, all companies of repute.

My opinion is that opening a site for any old modders to sell their stuff is quite frankly asking for trouble and will fracture a community sooner rather than later.
Not all payware will be of high quality and this is where this idea will fall down and the bickering will start.

Any payware for motor racing sims I purchase need to be done by professional companies of repute who will consistently produce quality, not by releasing stuff for a fast buck.
Good luck to those involved but dont count on me to buy anything unless it is of flight sim ORBX like quality .

I’d say it’s really true, problem with Racing vs Aviation technology is that in racing as little as possible is sent out to public about the really important bits. Let’s just think about it: PMDG (probably the best modding team on the payware scene for flight simulators) for their 737 got an access to a real plane and had contact with Boeing all along for additional info and all, while if you ever tried to make a Formula 1 mod you will never get even close to the precise car information if you don’t have some kind of an insane deal with them. Also plane manufacturers… there are only a handful of them while you will never even come close to naming half of all car manufacturers in the world, even if you tried.

My view is that racing is too different to planes and all this is going to end up in is a big row and we’ll either all end up with having to pay for such a new thing as a texture upgrade or we’ll come back to the point where everything is completely free and it’s modder’s own free will and time to do it and release it for free, as been the usual until now.

I think the best way to get money to help the projects, if the team needs it, is asking for donations from the simracers to keep the things going. If you make quality things, I’m pretty sure people would donate. I know that some teams already have that “Donate” button, but they don’t actually make users pay attention to it. Or just offer something special to people that donates, as a bonus…this attracts the users.

If something has quality, I’m pretty sure people pay, even not needing to.

PS: My english isn’t the best, but good enough to “pass the point” (I guess..)

Is anyone taking this seriously considering who is behind it plus he wants $50,000 to fund it via a funding website? Where is the maks corp sim that was meant to go public on the 29th nov?

i’d like to see them follow through on something first before they keep announcing stuff all the time. That guy who posted about a year ago hugely slamming maks corp seemed to really be on to something from what i’ve now seen over the last year. I can’t help but have alarm bells seriously ringing when i see any maks corp post these days.

No this is actually diferent. So when we want to actually pay our bills and offer you something its that we want a piece of cake? Arent ussers wanting a free piece of cake that are allways wanting from us to do stuff for them actually?
What youre are talking is noncense actually.
Musicians, movie starts and most of sportsmen did there hobby to comercial bussines but we cant?
Offcourse we only have to do free to make you all happy.

How will you judge who is better or worse actually? Is it better to do a mod free, than some manufacturer contacts you and you have to take it down? Wouldnt be better to license it? Or make it fictional.
Sorry BSRWix but as allway you are beeing smart again and i didnt wonder that youre the one first one posting here. As much as i like youre work and Arnolds one its a shame that youre not more supportive to modders that want to offer more and pay the bill whit it to.
Economy of many countrys has changed, many young talented people that could offer so much and have living whit it but now, you rather rant over everybody allways that could get atleast some succes.
The quality should be ensured in overall mod as in grafical, physics, sounds. If you and Arnold are doing something great grafical(as much i like it to) it doesnt mean it will be best one right?
Again nothing about you on Arnold personaly as i know Arnold for longer time and we helped us in past allready but really, cant we have steady mods releases for few bucks? Or do we have allways wait for teams that announc stuff and later allways beein postponed, cancelled and so on?
Wast WSGT2 planned for rf2? Arent there most of the cars finished? Just really curius now here cause i really wonder, or will you move to Assetto even if you announcet it for rf2? Im just wondering how much stuff did you offer sofar to the community that you can rant about modders wanting to earn some money, how can you say modding will die that day? get into youre head, real modding died the day 3dsimed started supporting games not moddable so the content could be ripped of there.
As much time as you put inside here now to rant about payable content made by modders you should rather start working on stoping the ripped content! On such mathers youre allways one of the first one but where really needed youre staying away!

Let me ask you something, since Arnold got his company and had to work all around the clock, how much progress did you do overall in WSGT2 mod?
I know its not my busynes but youre complaining here about something that we can offer but you cant, its simple as that.
WSGT2 mod was like on ice for longer period cause you just didnt manage. Is that the way of modding actually? People letting to wait for years something to happen? That is tha modding has changend, If you want to offer it in right time, right quality it cant be free anymore. Im not saying free mods will die out but they are just not really posibile. Games life times have changed, if game is done now, after few years its gone. It needs content, if it supports modding its intended to go this way to. We are not kids anymore but we need to live and if you can have more than just one hobby im happy for you but many people cant youre idea of modding is just about youre world, youre not thinking on those that could use it and on those that could offer it.

have you played RH and CTDP mods in the past? No acces to real f1 cars but damn they did amasing job.
Wanst community more supportiv in past doing better job than most if not all game developers actually?
Now i really see, its not just youre comment, ive seen few in past months.
When content is free modder is the best one to look for and makes best mods, they make better mods than actually game developer.
But when we want to earn it than sudenly we are no worth a dime and are uselles. That really shows how much worth we have. Like I mentioned allready, if you didnt notice, most of game dev team members are previus modders.

Ah and one more, in flight sims you have free and payable mods, both work great. For each usser something is there! Just sim racing community allways rants about something. Even free mods beeing ranted on usually.

I dont mind paying for serious mods, I think revenue for good work will help to drive further updates and quality.

Like the HistorX mod for rFactor is like a whole game in its own, awesome work, tonnes of time must have went into developing and enhancing it. I would like to pay for that to continue and be ported to rF2 etc. Without funding mods will be discontinued much faster.

Main issue I guess though would be around licenses, I seriously prefer authentic cars and tracks over fictional ones for sim racing… Dont know how this differs though between “free” and “paid” mods, but something commercial will get a lot more focus from license owners.

Not an easy nut to crack

I seriously doubt this will work. Getting a license for most car brands is going to be hugely expensive. Apart from that, most will not just give a license to anyone, you need to setup a legal entity, etc. For these reasons alone I don’t think we will see much licensed content. But we can speculate all we want, so far there is no store so this news article is a bit premature.

weird answer.. i think you should read my opinion again. In the end of the day , it would not matter what i think or not, so don’t worry.
Let me make clear first that my opinion about this matter, is not related to RMT, the WSGT2, or any of the RMT members. What we do or don’t with the WSGT2 is irrelevant regarding this conversation.

Its just my personal opinion about what will happen if Modding becomes something else then its own definition.

My statement is that revenue in modding ( as far as it can exist ) is not helping the modding scene, but trying to make it into something it is not. Something that will eventually cause so much mayhem, that it will become dangerous to mod. Lets hope i am wrong, but just as last year, when the topic rises, i cant feel anything but sorry. I would wish all modders out there all the money in the world, but the real world does not work that way i am afraid. like i said, just an opinion. not a personal attack, so lets keep it that way.

Its not weird answer. My answer came whit the question. Its something im trying to explain you.
You cant offer secure mod delivery which means it could be WSGT2 could be put completly on ice for whatever reason or it can be stoped at the end by manufactures right?
So you see, everything is related to WSGT2 aswell.
Every free mod can be affected by something and a moddable game and community is waiting empty handend there.
So what is wrong if i license and sell that content or do fictional content?
You see modding has changed, im here from scgt times and first mod i did for F1c that is 10 years back and tons of stuff since than.

The problem is that real world works worse than that actually but this can give plesure, joy and alot of fun to the community rather than looking it as a bad menace.
Ive mentioned in my other post here how we speend money and doesnt give you alot of that what this can offer.
And ive mentioned to as some others did about flight sim having payable and free content and it works both ways. Ive used both of those in past to and each was worthed.

This isn’t modding, this is paid DLC? No?

Won’t they need permission from game creators to profit from their games?

Best thing to do is just create your OWN game and THEN sell stuff for it. Seems a whole lot less complicated imho.

Steam workshop does this well by my understanding. Maybe this could be the way forward for modders who want to get paid. i.e Modders create content then submit it to the devs, the devs quality control and do the red tape licensing paperwork, invoice the relevant parties via accounts as when content is sold, and free mods are still made available by those that want to create them, for sims that allow for free mods. . tbf that’s the only way I see part-time modders getting paid working successfully.

I will put it this way to

The community should actually relly on somebody that will “eventually” deliver a free mod but there is allways “IF” and we have seen alot of them actually and numbers on that are going up.

So that makes the customers of moddable games waiting for something that might never happen right? Which makes people to buy a game that they can only hoppe for promesed mods and game dev are actually loosing customers aswell.

Ah allmost forgot to say. You buyed rf2 right? So techicly you buyed mods allready just they were delivered by ISI itself.

People are already paying for mods , Thats essentially what Game stock car is and that’s not a bad thing or degrading to GSC the point is its an awesome mod worthy of buying.

The best modders normally get to a level or produce enough work of enough quality and establish a fan base where it will make sense to offer it as a boxed title.

Another example would be Age of Chivalry mod for Half life 2 , they gained recognition from that and moving from that went on to build a game using unreal.

What we do not have in simracing is the selling of “micro mods”/ individual mod content. This is because no driving sim developer is large enough to do it. We are still at a point in time where its hard as hell as a developer to just nail the physics graphics and net code.

For It to really work you need a tight nit licensing system and a very easy to access store with a huge focused user base and the only developer that’s pulling it off right now is Valve with its steam workshop for games like TF2 and DOTA2 .

In the end consumers are only ever going to pay for the top quality content regardless, so the vast majority of mods will always be free even if developers had the time to put the systems in place to sell through.

There are probably only about 10-15 RF1 tracks that would be worth paying for and maybe 8-12 mods up to that quality and that’s after many years.

So in the end its going to be up to a developer to have a proper integrated convenient store with top quality mod content , otherwise people for the most part wont bother.

Mind you Steam workshop is available to any AAA developer so maybe if some of these more open sim companies got there games on steam it might become a reality.

I wish it could be a reality… its probably me, but how do you see it from your perspective? You make a mod… then you do all the work trying to license it … then you sell it with a profit, you set up a customer care service ( you have to, because you just became a retailer ) , you become self employed… you pay your taxes as a self employed retailer, you manage the foreign taxes, because you might be transferring legal money abroad. when a company does not like you being a third party earning on their label, you pay them your income and a fine, and start all over? will you get richer or poorer ? I think there is only one real answer here .. become a game publisher… then don’t call it a mod, but a product.

Modding is a “tolerated creative art form”. when you start charging for it , you make it into a ” Commercial Creative art form” , and all of a sudden al the rules that comply to game publishers do apliy to you.
I really hope it works out, but as said in Hill street Blues …. Lets be careful out there…

not correct… you should read the disclaimer that comes with rF2 it clearly states what you purschase.

i just hope that the modders who sell their licensed content over the portal dont try to stop others from releasing the same things(without license) for free.
im thinking about a similar situation we had with the enduracers porsche gt3 mod earlier this year.

This is hardly a flame war.. pretty clean discussion upp and till now actually. we have seen worse.

If anyone has any sense they will stay away from this clear rip off venture. Where is this new MMG WORLD RACING simulation that was supposed to be unveiled at the toronto motor show on the 29th?, that was announced on this site last week?

Typical hot air from MMG. As has been proven time and time again if you take people like this seriously you just encourage them and they keep going and going.

This is a serious website that should not be exploited and taken advantage of, so I think Montoya needs to put a stop to this nonsense once and for al, and he should ask MMG where is this new simulation they boasting about last week.

I knew this would happen.

Just with anything in life. You do it enough, you become good enough at it, and enough people like it, whats the next step? Charge people money for it!!

Noone can do anything for free in this world, and if they do it for free, like I just mentioned, they only do it for free for so long.

Hey if you’re going to do something, might aswell charge people money for it right?

Makes me sick.

You want to make money? Make your own actual game! Dont make a “Store for tons of random mods”.

Just like phone apps. Started out as mostly free, now more and more start charging money, and turning it into a business.

I love this group of people, Mak Corp is awesome. Having said that, it was only a matter a time before someone would turn modding into a business, and until now most if not all the modders, stayed away from this because if 1 group can charge for mods, then so can the next, and so will the next, etc etc. Next thing you know, 4 out of every 5 mods will be payment required. So noone took this step. Well Mak Corp just did, and it will snowball effect from here (keep growing and growing)

Unless they come up with their own amazing sim, (wether it be based on a great engine, or their very own scratch made engine), they wont be getting a single penny from me.

Sad day for the sim racing mod scene, as like I said, once one group does it, and gets away with it (meaning they are succesfull and make money), then its just the beginning, and a matter of time before more and more modders start charging and expecting money for their mods aswell.

Modding was supposed to be for a hobby, as someones passion, and then they would share it with the world, not as a business. You want to make money? Then make your own complete darn game! (Game Stock Car, Turismo Carretera, Arca Sim Racing, CTDP’s collaboration with ISI for the Superleague Formula game, etc.)
.

This, in my opinion, is a completely separate issue. If a car manufacturer gives one company an exclusive license (as is the case in the example you mention) of course they are going to protect their investment. Furthermore, whether you make money or not, using content you have no license for is not legal, so at some point you run the risk of getting asked to take it down (or worse, getting sued for damages, which is more likely to happen if you were making money off it). If you want to be safe, you ask for permission before investing months and months of your time into a project you can never legally release.

Its an art form, its something you can be awarded. It works all around the world. You licenses stuff than you do it right? If no license you can still decide to go on fictional cars. It works for pCars and it worked in past for other games.
What, how and which way we make its us and you. If somebody pays taxes or not its not youre deal.
That is something new to simracing but it works good for all kinda diferent games.

I still dont get it why are you going into diferernt direction allways after i reply to you. Why are you actually thinking of bussines plans and somehow trying to distract me from the real points here? Leave that to those who will decide to sell there content, the taxes and everything around it are on the seller, not youre problem.
You try to arguemt here why this is bad, I why is it good and than you go into completly diferent way not answering me a single simple question.

This is a simpler fact ive posted and this is the truth and it affects any modder and whole community that it can happen and will.

“The community should actually relly on somebody that will “eventually” deliver a free mod but there is allways “IF” and we have seen alot of them actually and numbers on that are going up.

So that makes the customers of moddable games waiting for something that might never happen right? Which makes people to buy a game that they can only hoppe for promesed mods and game dev are actually loosing customers aswell.”

If it was a serious website, people like you would stop ruining it for everybody else. Go make your own mod. then you can complain.

Ok this is getting dangerous now. MAK modding, who have proven unable to deliver anything more than a mod in 7 years, are now requesting $50,000 public funding for development of ‘mod management software’. whatever the hell that is.

Petros Mak has clearly been inspired by the success of the Project CARS business model, and now is going to try and syhpon money for a product that will clearly never materialise.

The completely unnecessary nature of this software is clear indication of the illegitimacy of this proposal. If you want to sell products you open up a basic online store, like every other business does, you do not need to design a fancy steam based software system, unless you are just trying for a money grab.

This is no longer a joke this is takings peoples money under false pretences, in other words fraud. I would hope this site and Montoya will have nothing to do with this and not be used as a vehicle to exploit people of their money.

If coffee was $4.50 here where I live I would not drink it… €1.2 max.
But I’m not talking about how much iRacing or the mods will cost, BSRWix explains it very well.

You don’t have the hang of logging in either :)

Well, Jack Hintz / Hellhound4Hire / StealthScg (whichever one you are today), when I came into the topic and saw 27 comments and the topic title, I was prepared for the worst.
To my surprise I have only, so far, seen people commenting in a rational, clean manner which I respect and am impressed with.
Apart from one slight dig from one member there’s been no insults or negative behaviour towards MAK Corp. Just people voicing their opinions on the idea and topic as a whole.
Plus these opinions, albeit from a small part of the sim-racing community here, may offer an insight to MAK Corp on how some of the sim racing community would see their idea and maybe help them gauge how or if it will work for them.
As for me, I`d say if it’s something they’ve researched and are prepared to give it a go, then they should. Only the potential customers will decided if it will work or not.

Oh I do wish you hadn’t said that. I’ve given you a few days break so you can cool off. Clearly you are oversensitive to MAK threads and need to learn to moderate your responses. You cannot reply to someone like that even if you disagree with them.
And after your break, I suggest you log in properly.

Do you know for sure that it wasn’t unveiled in Toronto ? Did you go there ?
I don’t know if it was or not. But as you seem to be basing your opinion, that people would be ripped off, on that premise you will need to hope it wasn’t after that post.

I see your point, but I don’t think this community is prepared to take that step towards a licensed form of modding.
I may be worng, wish I was, but again I have to agree with BSRWix.

Exactly. the customer is the ones that should chose at the end but they should have chance to get the content to and to some here you would be surprised how much support we actually get and like on everything there is a negative side from some to.

Come on now dude, Im sure you were not born yesterday and are intelligent. If it was unveiled there would some news about it, and mmg would reveal more information about it here, rather than just a vague screen shot, but they cant because its all they have. vapour ware. I would hope you dont support their latest attempt take peoples money.

Exactly what will happen, and the more if the free mod QA is better. Money in game will change the game. And i wouldn’t like to call licencensed stuff mods anymore but more third party DLC’s.

Michael, I need to ask you to just be careful of what you are saying before you go around accusing people of fraud, rip-offs and the like. You cannot accuse someone of doing something they haven’t done yet.
I don’t want this to get personal.

No, I wasn’t born yesterday. If I was, I`d be a prodigy at reading and writing and would have taken up sim-racing in the first hour of my life.
You would assume there could be news about it, but if there isn’t, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Maybe ask them ?
What you hope I think about it doesn’t matter in this context. I’m simply asking you to be clear and informed before you go around accusing people like you are.
For what it’s worth, I don’t have an opinion on it right now. All I’m concerned about is that people don’t do what others have done in the past and make this personal and then start dancing around with the posting rules.

Well mods must be done to, and i mean released before we can talk about modding to right?
If we take all those ripped content out we are left whit so many mods for last 2 years that I could probably count them whit my fingers.

Sorry but I am making logical assumptions. I will make another one that the excuse for not unveiling it at the motor show will be because of software bugs or something. Where is the news of this new game on their official website?? Nothing on there at all, since when does that happen when a gaming company unveils a new product? They just unveil it at some show and no news , nothing is ever seen or heard of it?? lol

Don’t you think its part of your job to ensure the news articles posted here have some integrity and are not just trolling spam? Its not all just about modding comments dude.

Well we need to say something dont we? or do we just sit back and let someone take advantage of people and their money? Dont you have some responsiblity here and question the news articles?

Well, logical or not, assumptions are still assumptions.
As for their new game, I really know nothing about it other than what was put on VR last time. But I’m guessing Petros wouldn’t be too hard to get hold of if you want some answers. Answers which you maybe should have at this point. They have a Facebook page which might have some news or if not it’s certainly a place to ask about it. Far better then assuming things.

Maybe you’re right after all but better to find out first I’d say.

Now… another assumption you’ve made…

It is NOT part of my job to have anything to do with what articles do or do not get posted here. This site is Montoya’s exclusively and he controls what articles get put up.
As a moderator, for me, it is all about the comments. That’s my job.
I make sure the posting rules are adhered too. Now and again I post my comments on stuff like anyone else.
So..some assumptions can be wrong even if they seem logical :)

You can voice your opinion as others have been doing of course.

My only problem is this assumption of fraud and/or rip-offs. You are presuming that MAK are definately going to take advantage of people and you have zero evidence to back that up. It certainly wouldn’t hold up in court right now.

Cautioning people to be careful is one thing but I don’t think you can really accuse people like that.

Your question about the news articles is one you’ve already asked me in your previous post a few minutes ago. I’ve answered it there but the short answer is no.

ok cool

Of course, most mods are horrible, and most of those beautiful 3D models are ported from other games with copy&paste physics. That’s not modding for me, and I don’t download those things.

I enjoyed VLM tracks, Formula Armaroli from Reiza and some other stuff, but I would’ve not paid to get them.

And its youre right not to. We are not forcing anybody but we should be allowed to offer the service to other people and follow our dreams.
And maybe some of our content would convince you to give as a chance and you could try it out.

I think you see me on the wrong site. I´m a modder since 7years now. i started this not for getting the fame. i started because it satisfied me. You can do what you want. I won´t forbid you to sell your work. But I think we will meet again, when you want to sell a model which i released for free. so this thing will split the community of modders. it won´t be the same like it was a few years ago, when all creativ guys were on the same side. but i think we all know that these times have already been gone…

and why do you think so? there are so many series that we cant cover all actually? youre wrong there. tell me where do you mod, what team? i never interfered into somebody elses work, never made competition who is better and never will do. Those few years back are long gone mate, long long gone but not becase of this new idea but about everything that happened.
Im modding since f1c and did alot of work for past few years, sometimes i just helped some teams out and gave them my work but yeah all this is long gone.
Modders are split allready in community, some ripp modders work, some ripp others game content, some do both and only few are actually still doing scratch work and those are allways in question IF they will be released ever or finished.
But for sure we wont wait if somebody announct something for free and its in question if its going to be done actually but if something is out for free than i wont do it unless its really bad one. But there are so many cars and yearly new ones coming that we still can get allong, especially that we will never be able to do them all to the number of modders but we can get more done if people would be able to pay there bills whit it.

I’m open to change my mind, I can assure you. And I wish you good luck.

Agree, and I can think on: I’m a modder, I do a Porsche 997, once finished I change logos and a little of a rear wing of other part of the car, then I call it Ponche 979. I avoid legal problems but obviusly i’m selling a real car. I think that could be dozens of problemas like that, i don’t believe “amateur” modders (or publishers) can get licenses easily.

“You want to make money? Make your own actual game! Dont make a “Store for tons of random mods”.

Is the correct answer……

I also remember the last time we discussed this MAK Corp, F1Racer jumped on me and somebody else for saying out loud that MAK Corp doesn’t ever try to actually release anything, and now here comes this news about some bizarre online shop for mods … I agree with you Michael, all this just seems like a trolling of the simracing community, MAK Corp announces 41324413. projects a year and NEVER release anything, I don’t believe them (him?) a single word.

Frankly, to hell with some damn shop, the last thing we need.

I love modding, and i am a motorsport fan my whole life. So understand that this would be a great dream for me to.
But i guess i am to realistic, or pessimistic, to see it work.

When i read your comments, you make it sound as:

Modding is demanded by the public… is it ?

Most people are jumping to pay for a mod? are they ?

Slightly mad Studios are just a bunch of modders… Are they ?

Al you have to do is licence a car … is that correct?

You will take all responsibility when a deal goes wrong… Are you?

Is reiza a modding group, or a company? I would say the second.

Did Reiza licence an engine ? … i would say yes.

What will be the plan when people start converting and ripping ?

What will happen when a team decides to create a mod you want to licence.?

Will you become anti-modders ?

In the real world, small fish are left alone, until they try to swim and feed in the big pond. Once modding would be interpreted as a form of parasites, it would kill modding as we know it.

Miodding and money don’t mix. Earning an easy dollar would be great for everyone, but the game industry is now a big global player and does not exactly work as a hobby. I still feel this is a make believe story. Getting people to think it is this simple to create an income from it, is an insult to all gaming companies out there.

like i said before … dont say ” we want to start a paid modding system…. but say ” we will become a games publisher” That way , people would know what to expect, and even people like me would agree and cheer for the effort.

I have a background in the Music Industry and it is amazing how parallel some of the discussions at hand sound to me. For me this still sounds like “… lets earn an easy dollar of a creative community, even if it kills them” ( just my personal opinion, i am sure others might see it different ) I wish you all the success with the project, and i mean that, even you might not believe it. But this is a commenting / discussion platform, so here we are.

I don’t think these for-pay modders understand that we already pay for the game and if we have to pay for mods- micro-payments essentially- then the cost of sim racing will skyrocket. Yeah, one mod that costs $15 or whatever may not be much but when every group wants a cut, the market will collapse. Plus, there will always be enough for-free modders and that will choke off the for-pay guys. There’s just too many ways for this to fail, and it will.

These for-pay modders need to open up their minds to other ways of producing revenue for their stuff. Selling mods isn’t the way. Individuals may buy the mod, but no league in it’s right mind will force its members to buy a mod. Leagues have trouble enough finding drivers without setting a monetary barrier. If there’s no online presence, the mod will fail.

Again youre just going into diferent direction. As allways you need to be the wise man that knows the mods and youre putting youre opinion and youre words directly into my mouth.

Modding and money don’t mix. Where do you live actually? Do you actually just follow the news people send you to or you have no clue about community actually?
Havent you seen that mod teams allready earn money whit it allready? You clearly need to check around.
And when did I sayed SMS are just a bunch of modders but check it out, most of the artist and modders are in game development if you didnt check it yet.
For you it seems better that an artist solds him out to a company where he can do the product only they give him to and than they sell it to us as “new” product and sell it to us alot more money than you would have to spent.
Wouldnt be better to cover 1 or 2 games whit racing series and buy actually only few content we need?
Just becase you think licensing a game is better thing it doesnt need to be.
I dont want to buy a game to drive one car or series if i allread have a game that could support that.

Whit you i really cant talk. Youre going completly into diferent directions as every time i give you single question and than you turn it around and you put into my mouth like something diferent that actually has nothing whit that.

And i have enough of you actually beeing schooling here all people when they say something that is not right in youre world.

As you are free moder fell free to stay where you are and im hopping we will see stuff from you release in 2020.

Youre talking here about earning easy money? WTF really man, if that is an easy work we do than why are doing WSGT2 mod so damn long? Really man?

Youre talking here about modding but painting here and there some skins. How many times we put modding infront of our lives, Even Arnold did it, i know how hard working he is and than youre talking here about easy earning money? Where the hell do you live in actually.
You clearly need to leave this hobby if that is so easy, thats why we have so many mods actually lately.

BSRWix is right, alless. There are so many ways for your model to fail, you just don’t see it because you want for your model to be successful so badly.

The more popular your mod is, the more success it will find. Providing a monetary barrier right away is not a good way to make the mod popular. Get involved with the community, get your name out, create a league- sell google ads. If ad revenue isn’t what you want, create an alternate means to get the revenue stream going. But trying to sell a niche product is thinking in the past generation of sims. There’s a reason more and more games are going to free-to-play.

Right now with posts like this you are alienating the community. The more you PROVIDE an outlet for people to drive your mod, the more people WILL drive your mod. The more people (internet traffic) you can drive to your site, the more ads you sell. Think of the mod as the content to drive people to your site, not as the product so much. As you create more content for the site, the more traffic will be driven to your site. This is self-perpetuating machine that by its nature drives it’s self. Think about it and get involved in the community. We don’t OWE you anything, you are going to have to earn the money.

Alless,.. i am not your enemy. Dont get to angry. Off course i look at it differently, otherwise i would not bother to have this discussion in the first place. I dont try to be smart, or try to put words into your mouth. I value your opinion as much as all other, but for different reasons i feel strongly about the modding scene, When we dont like something, it is also mandatory to explain why we feel a certain way.. thats all i am doing here. for the record… i wish i was a wise man.

rF1 has thousands of mods- almost all of them free. rF2 will also have thousands of mods- they will almost all be free. rF2 will come with a ton of content. As it is, we already have Skippy’s, Brabham, Clio, 60′s WCR, F2, FISI, FR, Meganes, GTEC, and these are only the current official ISI cars. There’s also the Maserati, Senna 88 and a few others. Not EVEN TO MENTION to tracks. With cars alone, I paid under $5/car ($44 for the game, 9 cars), not including tracks. Not including game engine either. Unless your mod sells for pennies, alless, i don’t think you can compete in cost effectiveness.

I know youre not my enemy BSRWix but nobody will tell me that im here for “easy money”
Im good at modding, im not the best one as 3d/2d artist but im damn good when i finish a mod.
I can offer community more but i want it to by my job. Its my dream.
Dont worry abou licenses and this stuff as this is my problem.
I have licensed content and fictional content i can offer and exactly that i will do but nobod and i repeat nobody will tell me here that this is easy money!
Its deservet and hardworking and im aware not all will support it, could be changed by the time but nobody will say that is easy money.

The difference between GSC and a mod, is that GSC is a full game. It uses the rF1 engine, but it includes good AI, a full new interface, several cars and from-scratch tracks. It’s not a mod, not any more than any of the other games based on the venerable rF1 engine are. GSC just doesn’t hide the link to ISI all that well.

Not using real car brands does have an advantage- the modders won’t be bound by that company’s rules. This means real oddities with the cars and real damage can be included. Licensing comes with all kinds of strings attached. I’d love to see a mod with realistic damage come out.

My price wont go over 5 euros and ive sayed buying to makes you 3rd one free. And buy more will give more % drop. But a single car will be at a price of 5 euros for start. Never will go higher but if it can work im willng to drop prices so it can work really well.

“Ah and one more, in flight sims you have free and payable mods”

but the payable mods are done by professional companies, something which does not appear to compute with you.

“Its an art form, its something you can be awarded”

ever heard of the donate button?

Well said, it seems like this Mak person has been trying for years to form a company, we’ve seen nothing but promises of mods, yet nothing has surfaced, now we have a promise of a new game with a new game engine, and now this, what’s next, I know this as nothing to do with me, I’m just observing like everyone else, makes you wonder now, all the negative comments, this team has been getting by a few readers here valid.

You want to make money out of race sims, FINE. Then release a game instead of doing something that most members of the racing community (on this site at least) appear to be against

I have spent time reading all the comments here and I see many valid discussions, concerns and thoughts. Whether it works or not is something we cannot yet know.

The initial idea was to develop a software that would allow for more security for these type of mods then simply having them in a shop like turbosquid has models, and then seeing them shared instead of bought.

A lot of you say that we should go a different route rather then such a software. So give us your ideas. I for one am willing to listen and develop a method that can help both sides of the coin.

Some of you said to rely on donations, but lets face it, donations do nothing to help modders, very little comes in and very few donate.

Some people on ISI forums said to have separate campaigns for supporting a specific mod group’s mod or product. The problem with that is that not many will be willing to support something that they don’t know if and when will be released. Not to mention, if people are willing to pay for an independent campaign, then why not one that combines it all?

I’ve gotten a lot of flack over the years because we’ve announced stuff but haven’t delivered. The truth is that as outsiders, none of you know what is going on in the background, and there are actually two mods right now that are very close to release of their open beta stages.

I agree we have announced a lot of stuff, I take full blame for that. The problem in the past was that I was younger and more inexperienced and the excitement of getting new people into the group and working on an announced mod overclouded common sense so we’d announce pre-maturely. This came back to bite me in the butt especially when those people disappeared or quit.

And there we have the major issue right there. Various people can do modding for so long before real life obligations get in the way. It took many years but over the time MAK-Corp has developed a loyal and dedicated group that works primarily on our commercial work and then we work on modding during our free time. We would love to be able to work on our mods more hours every day but unfortunately paid work has to come first as our bills and families have to come first.

I know many of you hate me, for god knows whatever reason. Because I announced too much and didn’t deliver? Isn’t that childish? At the end of the day, am I not still here trying to get things done and trying to make things work? When I announce things, I do so in full agreement with all the staff working on that specific product. Unfortunately, sometimes unforeseen factors come into play and people have to leave and I am left behind to either pick things up and get things progressing, to hear the flack from the community, or in most cases, both.

Many people have come and gone, but I am still here trying to do my best to bring great mods to the community from great artists, I cannot be blamed for life getting in the way and taking those people away from modding. I can’t control life.

In the end, above everything, I’d rather try and fail a million times than not try at all. And if I have to fail a million times more, then so be it, but I’ll still be here learning from my mistakes and trying to do things right. Each and every one of the guys who works in MAK-Corp deserves a bright future for themselves and their families, I will fight hard to achieve that, I will not accept failure or let the notion deter my desire to bring success to such great artists and any more that may join up. I’m just a simple man, you all may hate me, think of me as a liar, so be it. All I care about is my group, my staff, and developing the best damn products we can so we can get enjoyment from seeing all the community enjoy them.

If you have thoughts and ideas on the ways we can do them, then by all means, state your ideas and your thoughts, but I will also say this. Read and understand what people say, understand when people have to pick up the pieces, don’t bash the shit out of them and their group for something they can’t control. I love this community, I love sim-racing, I love modding and developing, and I hope to be able to do this for many decades to come, that is my true feelings, don’t bash them, support them and help me through your constructive feedback.

Few people agains it are not most members, sorry cause that would make like 10 people members, maybe few more but thats all actually.

Ever heard that this doesnt actually work?

You are totally wrong there as you have no idea what i was working on or did for living for last few years.

Bad move by this controversial modding team. They have every right to license the ISI base technologies and do what Reiza is doing and releasing their own titles with all licensing obligations met to a letter of the law.

Almost all of them free? I have never paid for an rF1 mod only helped to support the sites that carry these mods as downloads. If your thinking that GSC is a mod? no it is not it is a standalone title with it’s base engine licensed from ISI and they have met all legal requirements to sell their product I think MAK needs to take note of this and follow suit.

This could be the way to go for many people. I mean, like payware mods for FSX for example.
But!
What if I spend thousands of dollars to license a track, or car, and then next day after releasing my work it will be pirated all over the simracing forums? There are not much of those forums as well and all the people which are really focused on simracing – are on these forums. One or another, but there are places where they get stuff.
So I see no income from this perspective at all.
Correct me if I’m wrong.

Neither will your hare brained scheme to start a site for payable mods. The negativity on this thread should tell you that.

Show me where I jumped on you or drop the accusation.
My stance is simply this. If you have an opinion on the article, then voice it, whether you like it or dislike it. Doesn’t matter which because the opinion is just as valid as the next guys.
But if you’re one of these people with personal vendetta’s and use that to post with, then yeah, I`ll jump on you because then that’s trolling.
It’s all a question of how you post. Doesn’t matter if it’s MAK or ISI or PCars.
So if you felt jumped on it must be the way you posted. If you can find the post, I`ll tell you if I think I was unfair with you or not.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Some racing series offer private mods necessary for purchase.

You didn’t “jump” on us overly agressive nor did you ban us, sorry if I made it sound that dramatic, but you did tell us to stop saying negative things about MAK, saying we have no proofs that MAK won’t release anything etc. and soon after that MAK himself appeared and said his mod (I think it was discussion about some group C car) is 95% done and will be soon released.. which is EXACTLY what he says all the time to calm everybody down but never actually does it after saying so.

You have no idea actually. It will be done and you wont change my mind about it.

We have had mods with real car brands for years, the Porsche issue with Enduracers is an exception, and still most mods had little or no damage even when there was no fear of charges; the main reason damage is done poorly in most mods is simply because its too much work so thats not gonna change easily imo.

Will not pay for modding. If this happens mods will get pirated simple as and i for one wouldnt be one of the ones paying to use them.

I would be quite surprised if they are actually selling you the software over listing it as charging you a membership where the software is consider a free perk of the membership. Just look what happened with Enduracers being served with a cease and desist order over the Porsche Brand and Car Model likeness. I can assume Endu does not lazerscan their car models and are Cad Generated so they are not 100% accurate replica’s of the real life models and were not selling the software to boot but still had to scrap many hours of hard work. MAK is just opening a big can of worms and if these other series sites are actually selling unlicensed software they may also be subject to the same faith. If your gonna do it do it right or don’t do it at all or you risk a big part of what the industry has come to love as a whole

Well until something is released I suppose you’re argument stands up. But I’m sure MAK know their situation in the community and what people think so, in the end, it’s up to them to prove the critics wrong.

We did recently see previews of cars from their mod so that does show that their might be progress, so I don’t think any of us is in a position to positively say it won’t be released. Be a lot of wasted time and work otherwise.

Time will tell no doubt.

If you don’t pay then there’s no market.

i always get scared when the owners/ publishers start defending a decision on a public forum . But i suppose thats were we are today . i hope that we dont end up in this sterile world were the publishers /shops try to shut down all the fan based mods made so that they can fight over that ever decreasing pot of gold that we the public have….

the thing that i love about sim racing is the communities that have been built through the Amateur modding group supplying good addons to the communities and them forming around it and racing together , im not a fan of the rent to play model or the micro transactions i like to pay for something then own it . Like all industries this extreme niche is already reachng capacity and the only people i see losing out is us the players … as you will have no choice to call fan made stuff “unlicensed ” and try and get it taken of whoever/whatever is hosting it so that your product becomes more visible … so at this point are you helping or hindering the community… i believe we have seen this happen quite recently already …

but hey good luck

I’m with alless big times.
BSRWix seriosuly stop wasting time on forums and focus on complete your WSGT2 for rF2. After the release, you can EVENTUALLY rant and troll the comunity. But until then act like a normal user with normal ego, seriosusly.

I also remember a never finished 95% convertion of WSGT1 for rFactor. So please, stop acting like you know everything.

I have the feeling WSGT2 will become waporware because you and Arnold loves to post pics, but pics are not mods you know…

Professional Operator: First of all , where do you see me rant and troll ? secondly,this has nothing to do with ego. on the contrary actually. As far as the WSGT2 or RMT are concerned, i dont see the relevance here ? do you ? thith.. where did i state i know everything? So you must be a psychologist i guess.
I am trying to have a heated,but normal discussion here.
I would say this has been one of the better discussions. so whats your problem? I guess you are not operating very professional after all. We all have our own opinions, likes and dislikes. Thats Normal to me…

@BSRWix:disqus I am not going to comment on paying for mods. It has its upside and downside only time will tell how it works out.

My post is if for somthing you said that charging for mods will kill modding. now i cant say it will or it wont none of us can see that far down the line to know for sure.

I will tell you what is killing modding it is the modders that are doing that all on there own. and I will tell you why,

there are many many many of us that have tried to make cars and tracks and we cant do it (I can make tracks with BTB so so) but cars are just to hard to work out.

This is where you guys “The Modders” none of you will offer any kind of help its all hush hush and most of you have the stand point that its tuff luck if you cant do it.

Well i am sorry nut i find that just plan rude. I have learned sking over 6 years and in that time i have made guids and taken people under my wing and shown them all what i know.

Then you have F1Racer who took time out of his life to make video’s of making a render right from the start to the end and charges very small sums for this. I know i have them and i now make renders for many teams in the sim world and i get better by the day. I have also made a very good friend off him.

I ask this why cant modders do the same. By that i mean make video’s on how its done and sell um?

and that way more will learn how its done and more mods will be out there.

damn dude almost had me crying reading this. (bring on the gay jokes if you must lol).

I am behind you and your team 100%. I still use your F1 mods on rFactor as i still think there one of the best mods ever made as am sure you know many many do.

I have said before some where in these posts to @BSRWix:disqus I dont know if it will work or not. I hope it does tbh and you prove all the haters wrong.

I dont think it will kill modding at all and i wish others would stop saying it. This is how i think things would be cool to be. Is that teams like your selfs bring out your own sims. But not for the reasons others have said. I wont to see all modding teams do it this would work in so many ways. 1. you make your games it makes the likes of you all push harder to out do what the other is doing thats awesome for us gamers. 2. all the free modding guys out there that work on stuff could get a job with 1 of the teams.

Just look at the guys that work at SMS, Simbin, GSC, all ex modders for the most part. i mean jeez just look at how awesome GSC is tbh by far the best sim out. What they have done just blows me away. just wish more people played it so we can have full racing all the time.

I would say that you could do like a big mod say your group C mod and say you charge for it I am fine with that. but you would have to give at least 1 car as a demo as i cant see many paying for it with out trying it first.

But what you do is for every big mod you bring out and charge for is make a little one for free. just 1 car serise.

On a new note i see that you put about that guy who makes 3ds and 1 person buys it then share’s it out so others get it for free. How will you stop people doing the same with your works?

Let my just quickly clarify something here – rf1 does not have thousands of mods. There are a few dozen mods – a mod by definition in the terms discussed in this thread is something made from scratch. RF1 has thousands of conversions from commercial games, a few dozen to hundred conversions of old mods made for old games. That is not in doubt.

It is very easy for a private individual to go to a Government office and collect all the forms needed to register a proffessional company. A few hours, a few dollars, and bingo! one professional company exists. Just saying. Even the biggest companies started from nothing.

What I don’t understand Ales, is how you think you will get away with sell the ‘Aura T5′ and ‘Bayro T5′ cars, are they are obvious ripoffs of Audi and BMW DTM cars. That is not a fictional design, all you did was remove the logos. It’s like trying to sell a counterfeit product, which I believe is illegal in most countries.

Either way, I hope for your sake you get away with it somehow. I just don’t understand how you don’t see this as a bad idea. If you want to make fictional cars and sell them, fine, but don’t take real cars and just remove logos. Again, that just doesn’t seem like a good idea.

Lots of words, but words are easy, what’s hard is action. You speak of so much passion and love, and dedication to modding, yet where are the results? Your results are 1 mod that was released 5 years ago. Your actions don’t add up with your words sorry, and trying to gain sympathy won’t work either with most people.

I find it interesting that for someone with so much alleged love for modding, that you have zero modding abilities at all, and contribute zero to modding work. Its very strange that someone with so much love for modding, has never bothered to learn how to do it. Makes you wonder if actually producing mods is actually your true agenda, and the almost non existence output of your group over so many years certainly adds to that question.

And now you are asking for 50,0000 to fund some non existent software to sell mods? lol

Once again, words are easy, but backing them up is hard.

PS. What happened to your world simulation that you announced on here last week would be unveiled on the 29th at a florida motorshow?

Hey Wayne. When I was first contacted by several artists about this idea, the initial thought was to make a web-shop where they could sell their art work in the form of mods. These would have been hybrid mods of self designed cars which for many would have a resemblance of real life cars. We spent quite a long time discussing the pro’s and con’s of this scenario. As some mentioned here, Simraceway tried and failed to capture the mass market by doing this, but then you look at iRacing and it has clearly succeeded in many ways.

I put forth the same problems that many of you posted here, which was, sharing and leaking of files. People who buy from a web shop would be able to leak the files to others, and lets face it, friends share with friends who will share with their friends, so on and so forth. The idea came forth to make a software that could run these mods under an encrypted system which does not hold the encrypted data via the exe but via external custom made files which the exe reads from. This would allow the security to be a tad bit tighter.

We thought this method would allow for the artists to sell their work and to be able to do so with a bit more security then just a mere web shop which has no security once someone buys the item.

I think our mistake was that we combined the software funds and the support to artists funds in one campaign and this may have thrown quite a few people off seeing us asking for such a large sum. Original my desire was to just ask for the software funds but various artists asked me to include the studio support funds for various studios.

In regards to selling our mods like our group C mod which will be in the classic cars mod and our f1 2008 mod, we will NEVER sell such mods which we choose to develop for free. For one, we don’t have licenses to sell the content of those mods and two, we want to continue providing free things as well as pay for stuff. We don’t want to become completely 100% pay for, but we do have to start looking into how the artists can earn more money which can help support them to stay on board longer.

As for people doing the same thing as us. I don’t see why that should matter. Our aim is to add each product to multiple games. Many mod groups work on the same mods, many games feature the same cars, but the majority of gamers still buy each game. If others choose to do the same as us, it just gives us that determination to strive to do it better. Whether we will do it better or not will remain to be see, but it gives us the drive to perform and produce better quality. We don’t get bent out of shape when people do the same work that we do in modding, so why should we here? Like I said, it just pushes us to try to make ours better. This community moving forward into the future will not occur by people stopping each other from doing similar things. Competition is a good thing, it pushes people to reach beyond their limits and that is what we as a group want.

Is this system a gamble? yes it is, it would be stupid to say its a fault proof system, its not. Its just a system that will give a tad bit more security to artists, and provide a way for them to sell their work more securely. That is what this software is about, its not about making every product pay for, its not about taking people’s money and making them pay more for content. The system would have both pay for and free content. It would just provide a more secure method of acquiring and managing the content.

Lets take STEAM for example. People buy games off steam, many have the RACE07 series on there. STEAM could someday close down and while they have said they would look into providing an offline exe so people could still enjoy their games, its not a guarantee that they will. All the money people have spent on those games would be lost along with all the games. It is the risk any person takes from buying anything from an online medium. But I had planned to have it in our software’s terms and conditions that we WOULD provide an offline version of the software so all content would not be lost from the buyers should we ever shut it down.

Whether people agree to pay for mods or not, the fact is too many people think modders owe them something, and when modders don’t deliver they get flamed and bashed. People think modders have to do everything for free, and while modding is indeed a hobby, every hobby can only continue for as long as its financially viable.

Maybe there is another way we could go about it, I’m all ears to hear people’s thoughts.

Just because they look the same doesn’t mean they are the same. RUF cars look similar to Porsche and Porsche loses every lawsuit against them.

Petros can you let us know what happened to the world racing game you announced last week?

They are diferent and ripoffs like you sayed would have to be exact copy of something and first you need original product, they are not. And this works for all kinda games. Its interesting that now sudenly it is wrong. If any other game does it is right and they make millions whit that for what i never asked you.

You should visit virtualR more and see that this can work as there are games doing that allready but i guess you dont mind there.

If you support something that has similar content you clearly need to think about it what youre saying here.

This will all fall apart once they realise how expensive a licence is, let alone how hard they are to acquire. No licence equals no chargable mods.

Its been 5 years, hasnt time told already?

It hasn’t been 5 years on the mod they were previewing a few weeks ago. Same goes for this online store.

Agreed, but the companies I mentioned have consistently produced “professional” quality payware. They are not fly by night johnnies out to make a quick buck for themselves.

5 years of announcements and no releases is a pretty clear indication of the conclusion of this new round of announcements. Im not sure how much proof is required, you seem to have a whole lot of faith for some reason.

You actually get the 5 years of announcements all around community, check the rfcentral site full whit WIPS and check the old news here on the site and you will see how much has come out and how old the news here are. Many mods needed this time to and some still beeing worked on will be worked on longer as its demanden cause of the quality and the amount of work needed.
You just dont see it. Look to the modders, 1 year is usually needed to release a single car. Why? Try to make one in youre FREE time.

We love modding but clearly community is not willing to support scratch made free work anymore as most of them rather prefer the content beein ripped off from other comercial games.

Are they better? Not allways but it how it works, cause there are some missing cars in scratch made work or it takes to long for community to wait to be finished.

Why does it take so long usually and it takes every year longer?

Cause people cant afford it anymore to put such massive time into something like that for free and its the truth.

Guy Moulton mentioned tons of content, we all see how happy they all are, just demanding for more and more all the time in rf2 forums, ISI will do it how far they can. Team there is small and they will neer be able to do all we want. And those few series as mentioned are the ones for most of community that are needed/wanted.

Look at modding teams, when they decide they want to make current cars it takes years to be released and if than missing some and until than there is allready the demand for newer ones.

Ive seen few forum topics about this actually lately and many prefer shift2 models over apex gt mod or many prefer codies over RFT F1 mods and even if CTDP or RH would do current F1 mods it would be the same. Forza cars or GRID cars beeing prefered and put into enduracers mod allready to fill the LeMans, ALMS grid.

So who is here that is destroying the community and not doing it right?

You allow it and support all the ripp offs.

If you allways want to buy every game new for each series but basicly you allready own such game, go and make. For me this is noncense. I would in past rather buy a single game and than new content to it. At the end it would be cheaper to as not alot of games will offer you tons of cars, except its nfs series or console games as its not worth to amount of work, licenses. There you have the real ripp offs that just look for youre money and than you spent every year for new series of that.

Well I will sit here and say I am with you guys on this.

Money was going to come into it one day its a fact of life we have bills to pay and family’s and the like.

The thing what works for me is that your mods and some others that are made are done better then the likes of ISI and so on. When work is that high it takes so much time to so it just look at endruoraces has to be be in my top 5 of the best mods ever made and it took what the best part of 3 years to get it where it is and by what i have been reading there still working on it for rFactor 2. This guys like your selfs should get money for that.

The other thing i like about and its the reason i wont get into to this iracing sim is with them you pay pay pay and pay and as soon as you stop paying you have nothing to show for as all the stuff you pay for is on there server. I cant think of any thing that winds me up for tbh.

Where as what you guys are going to do is offer a system that lets you have it offline so that means its ours for ever. now that is awesome news.

What is kind of peeing me off with what some people are saying here its that its wrong to charge well i am sorry but its not. Modding will not die at all if any thing i see more people doing it as its a way for them to make money for the work they do.

Look at Com8 his tracks blow me away every time and VLM there tracks are also out of this world. If they said right from now on we will charge £5 for every track we do i would be more then happy to pay as its what i get back for that money. just looking at VLM Le mans late 90′s track I must have done over 1000 laps round there if not more. So its all fun on my end but have they got out of it? Nothing thats what all they get is some of us that have a good bone in our body saying thanks for your hard work. And yes will make them feel good but for 2 years hard work saying thanks just does not cut it. They should be payed for that. Just like you guys with the awesome f1 mod how long did that take i think i read some where was about 2 years? thats a lot of work for just a thank you post on a blog site/ forum.

Many modders of other sims charge for there work just look at flight sims there all charging for the work they put into it.

I see someone in here had potsed”well its wrong if i have to pay for mods i have payed for the game” well thats the most silly thing i have seen. 1. ISI make the game not modders and it does not say on any ISI site/forum ok buy the game from us and you can have all the free stuff you like. 2. Having free stuff is not a right. 4. Why should the likes of ISI get money for a game that lets be frank on its own is crap. 4. with out modders Rfactor Race 07 GTR2 GT Legends ect would be nothing no one would play them I for one would not still have rfactor on my pc if was not for the mods that there are. But yet no one gets payed for it.

I would like Team ORSM bring out a v8 supercars game or at least the cars and tracks and charge for them. Now who would not pay for that? not many i bet.

Ans as for people saying that leagues would die if it goes done this road thats utter rubish look at the FSR formula 1 league thats a alot on money to get in yet there is a waiting list to get in.

I would say a league where a mod has to payed for is better as you would then get supprt from the team that made it and get updates more often. Plus and this is a big plus it would stop all the rammers and cheats form joining as they wont want to pay for it.

Good luck to you my friend I will be 1 of the first to pay for a mod from you guys.

P.s Sorry for the long post

Are my posts getting deleted? or is this locked?……..lol
“What do you think of the idea? Is this a possible way into the future of modding or will this bring unwanted attention to the modding community? Feel free to share your view in the comment area below!”

I never sayed somebody OWEs me something, never thinked about it. And that i need to earn it, you have it so right there and i know it!
The problem is, i would like to have chance you know?
Why it must be judged right away and that its wrong?
And anybody wants the idea he got or work he does to be successful at right, ofcourse i need to be real but if i want it i need to belive into it, i need to be first one actually to belive into it.

I don’t think Porsche loses anything against RUF or vice versa. RUF is over 70 years old automobile company recognized by german government. What they do is buy chassis from Porsche, then install their own engine and lots of other things. I’m sure they have specified contracts on what they can or can’t do; I’m also pretty sure that if some new company decided to simply make its own car that looks exactly like 911 without notifying Porsche, they WOULD LOSE every lawsuit against Porsche.

The silence is deafening ! :)

Yeah, and 95% of authors of those WIPs that were announced years ago never dared to show up again announcing 50 new mods because they can admit to themselves they don’t have the energy/time/willpower/whatever to finish their mods and simply fade away – there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

When I think about mod groups that just announce all the time and don’t deliver that much I only think of two – MAK Corp and VLM. Except VLM delivered us some of the best content ever made and their only bigger “hiccup” is the never released Group C mod so VLM are more than well forgiven, they did deliver lots of other stuff. MAK Corp on the other hand….

edit: oh and TeamPlayers with their 55 mod which is also never going to be released.

I am absolutely, 100% against this. Modding is modding. When money enters the arena it becomes a business. I started a thread on the ISI forums awhile back asking what you’d pay for a great mod. Some were against, some were not. I was of the opinion that if it was good enough, I might pay $5 or so. Since then I have come to the conclusion that nothing good can come of it. This sort of thing will split the community even more than it already is.

We don’t need that.

I’ll be watching this timebomb from a distance… Just hoping that “modding” survives the blow :P

People sayed a plane like Airbus 380 will never lift from the ground? How did that work out but it was never tryed before right?
Mods as payware are out for years and it works just great so its allready a business in other arcade, life or sim games. Just cause it wasnt done yet or tryed it does not mean it cant work. You can say it will split it more or not until its tryed.

where is your sim that was meant to be announced on the 29th nov?

This is not about world racing game. This kinda mathers are not be discused just cause you make a questions under something that has nothing to do with the news.

You must be nuts, really. Everybody started from something, many from nothing and you can judge somebody if you dont know his skills. You should check some modders in rf/gtr2 comunity and you will see how far they did go allready in there life and or how some quality mods were that were a match to youre “profesional” companys.
If you cant bring it to nothing in youre life dont you dare stoping others for atleast trying it!

Bomp exploded when 3dsimed was released and started to support unmodable games actually ;)

“Unmodable” ? ;)

Well you know what i mean, hehe. Not moddable, lol

Sssssshhhhhh. ;)

Who are you calling nuts, you half baked dingle :)

This has nothing to do with faith. I don’t know any more than you do when or if MAK will release the next thing.
What I do know is that no mod group or modder owes anything to any end-user. I’ve started stuff and never managed to finish them for one reason or another. Sometimes it happens. Yet some people feel that if something is announced then they are owed it and if they don’t get it, then anything from harsh criticism to a complete character assassination can follow.
From reading some of your posts, your words remind me very much of someone else that I feel both of us may know very well.

Clearly you actually :) but i like the half baked dingle, didnt hear that before, hehe

Yer welcome :)

I know you are passionate Alles. And you are a fine modder. I wish you a fine future. But the discussion itself is not targetted at you, but at the topic… “should modding become a money driven hobby, and would it be dangerous ” I really hope you will get something in return for your efforts and belief, but the question remains,. Can it work, and will it damage you while trying? .

For those who say they should not pay for mods because they already purchased the game:
- Us modders have also purchased the game. Then spent countless hours making mods, spending money in things like eletctricity, trips to racing events, books and even software (not counting labour hours converted to money). But I guess that doesn’t count because you already paid for the game, right?
So why do modding teams (or individuals) eventually stop releasing mods? Maybe because they get tired of spending time and money releasing free stuff. Not all of us are rich enough and eventually we either need to make a profit out of it or abandon modding.
Sure, a modding team must earn the community respect before they can ask for something in return, but how many of you have actually donated anything to any modding team? Counterwise, if you’re expecting something for free, then stop asking for release dates and attack modding teams that take longer to release their stuff?

I have no idea if the online store will succeed, but i see absolutely no harm in trying. And if that means more mods, better quality and more people involved in the long run at the expense of a few bucks, then I’m all for it.

Have you at least talked with a lawyer to make sure this is going to be ok? I’m not trying to bash you guys or anything. I am just honestly concerned that you don’t know what you’re getting into.

And can either of you point me to another game that does something similar to this? I honestly can not think of any that do, but I understand that doesn’t mean they are not out there.

I completly understand you to but until we didnt tryed it we can judge it right? We know that it works good like i allready sayed in other games and it could work here to. We just need to make it right.

Interesting to see how this proceeds. Mods are one of those things people love to value highly, until they are asked to actually front some real dough for it. Like clean streets, low crime….you know….

Yes, it’s a shame to leave the world of gratis, but nobody says anyone has to buy anything. And nowadays comprehensive mods are so large and of such quality, well……seriously? Why shouldn’t there be a return?

I don’t see why sim-racing can’t support a market for add-ons if FlightSim could.

OTOH, this does raise the ever-lurking spectre of licencing and increases the likelihood of a clampdown. But why wouldn’t it? Why expect the rules not to apply over mods but over everything else? Oh well.

So you are setting yourselves to be in a position where manufacturers such as Porsche wish to sue you?

You might be confident of winning, but how are you going to get licences from manufacturers if they’re busy suing you? I don’t get it.

I’m ready to pay for quality modding
I’m also tired to see good stuff cancelled by random reasons like:

- modder had a flame with xyz user so no pubblic release

- modder troll everyone and decide to keep his stuff private after releasing at least 100 pics and 10 promo videos.

- modder remove a car on an update because he had a discussion with xyz user
(GTR2 Super GT HSV anyone)

- modder reach 95% of conversion in another game then stop working and deny any conversion on that platform

- modder loose data because of hard disk failure

I have seen so many silly stuff happen in this sim racing comunity.. the list could go on and on…

so yes, I’m actually looking forward to commercial modding.
Fictional brands? I don’t care. Formula Armaroli is a lot of fun for instance.

Whilst I agree its an exception, it is not the only case we’ve had.

In the days of Papyrus, more specifically NR2003, we had the GTP mod which was released and the mod team were immediately contacted by what was then called First Racing (now iRacing) and they had to take it down. After negotiations they were allowed to release it just this one time, but with no real car makes or sponsorship logos.

There was also an A1GP mod for rFactor which was released and withdrawn quickly. They got contacted by the organization behind A1GP if I remember correctly. I’m not sure if someone was making an “official game” back then, or if they just did not like having such a mod.

I’m sure that if we dive a bit deeper, we can find more examples. Anyway, I understand why companies protect their IP, but I do hope they will “tolerate” a modding community that does this for free. Alternatively, it would be nice if they would start working with mod teams to allow them to create licensed cars. However, those deals will always have restrictions so in the end I’m not sure if that’s a path we should go on.

“- modder remove a car on an update because he had a discussion with xyz user
(GTR2 Super GT HSV anyone)”
To correct you..

You can always keep your version of the mod with the HSV

The original creator of the model requested his work to be removed.
not a XYZ user
and that really makes me wonder why…

We are working on a new one though.

“Modder remove a car” – happened to us with the Formula Renault Junior 2.0 after the original modder decided to come back to life just to say we couldn’t use it anymore.
On another case the Ford Transit Trophy was canceled because the promoters and Ford wanted a profit.

What I’d like to see from a group like Mak Corp is not licensed content. there’s enough of that to go around. I’d like to see these groups think outside the box. Non-licensed content that has total freedom from licensing shackles. Work on a car with VERY realistic damage. Concentrate on the perfect engine that really takes damage from being abused. Make a car that’s not real, but IS realistic.

I’d also like to see a real eF1 championship. This would not be based in Bernie’s F1- there are plenty of mods for that. 10 teams of modders, 20 cars, 20 drivers. The modding teams use the game’s physics and a realistic damage spec within a set of specifications set by the eFIA to build a formula car to win the championship. The type of car, the engine, the aero- all of it custom. It may seem like an easy task except it has to be driveable and there would be 10 groups competing.

Something like this would be a new evolution of sim racing.

I’m happy to pay for quality content and look forward to this if they can pull it off.

Paid mods? You mean products…like in MS Flight Sim 2004/X? Basic is crud, but when you pay lots of money it gets better with the added paid addons, don’t really like it TBH. Then again most people DL you stuff for free even if you tell them to pay for it, mostly because the cost is too high.

Honestly i think it would be better to make your own sim like Reiza studios with their stock car game. Then at least it is clear. They can license the tech from ISI or whoever they want, no problem. Easier that way I think.