- Sim Racing News – Magic Save Exploit Causes Controversy

The iRacing community has recently been rocked by some controversy caused by an exploit in the online racing simulation’s physics simulation.

The iRacing community has recently been rocked by some controversy caused by an exploit in the online racing simulation’s physics simulation.

Named the “2 Foot Magic Save Hax” or 2FMSH for short, the exploit allegedly allows drivers to save almost every slide by applying full force on the throttle and brake at once.

According to those who experienced it, this technique will magically save the most extreme slides regardless of steering wheel input.

While no physics simulation is perfect and bugs like these are not uncommon in racing games, its presence in iRacing is rather problematic given that the simulation is used to run league and events with rather big cash prizes or awards at stake.

The video below shows the exploit in effect, the iRacing forum discussion regarding this problem has already reached 23 pages as subscribers are debating the severity of the issue.

  • Ryan M J Callan

    That would be really funny if it wasn’t for the hit to iRacing’s credibility.

  • Peter Osburg

    Until now I didn’t see any Simulation where it did not work to push brake and gas at the same time to stabilize the car. GTR, Race, rFactor, pCARS and iRacing.

    Good to know that it seems to be a bug.

    • numrollen2000

      Dont work on every mod, the good ones out there have other reactions on this brake smashing. I think this can be fixed. Already is known more then 2 years? This is the problem!

  • Aaron Carlisle

    Just another trait left over from 2k3… I can’t believe they’re just now figuring this out.

    • André Patrício

      If you knew anything about physics programming you’d know that it has anything to do with left overs… something that messes with the angular acceleration of the car that bad was put there on purpose… perhaps to fix something a la brute force 🙂

  • Anonymous


  • André Patrício

    LOOOL! Now I see where F1 2010 took the idea from… Can’t wait to see the excuse from the iRacing fanboys 😀

  • Swordand Keyboard

    this is most likely the biggest bs topic i’ve ever seen. As much as I enjoy zinging the iracing fanboys …… you can do this same thing in every single game.
    in rfactor if you upshift when you feel loose it pulls you out of slides, or you can left foot brake and gas out of slides or loose issues.
    obviously this proves most of noobs playing race games never drove a real car or never did a brake torc in a real car.  maybe when they learn to shave and get there own car these topics will loose luster.

    • Bryan Gunsher BG Pups

      Noobs have never driven a real race car..What a stupid statement..Have you driven a real race car since you obviously are not noob..just a jerk.

      • Swordand Keyboard

        Yes I have been a scca track volunteer for longer then a noob like you has been on this earth.

        This ”jerk” has forgotten more then you will ever know that is apparent.

  • Derek Speare

    GASP!  Moar skandal!  OMG WTF?

    • Anonymous

      …and maybe using derek speare products give an unfair advantage as well because of their quality. 🙂 No sarcasm here. Good stuff, thank you.

      • Derek Speare

         Well…all of my goodies will cut lap times by at least 30%…maybe 40%  Just don’t make it look too easy or they will level an embargo on my gear! 🙂 🙂 🙂

  • Markus Ott

    What’s the deal? iRacing’s unrealistic throttle-braking stuff is bs for 2, 3 years now and nearly no one actually cares.

  • MrNone

    iracing has a perfect physic… so we must fix the real-life physic.

  • Anonymous

    By Stefano Casillo – Kunos Simulazioni on Iracing forum

    “Interesting thread, the good old hit the brakes to save a spin debate 😛

    Some thoughts about the issure;

    I hope you all realize that the car will align itself to have the side with less grip “forward”, ie, in the direction of travel. 2 simple way to prove it: get a pen a throw it on the floor, it’ll rotate in a pretty random fashion. Now stick a rubber to one side of the pen and repeate; the pen will always stop rotating straight away, align to the direction of travel with the rubber end BEHIND. The hard way to test this is to get in a parking lot, get some speed, hands off the steering wheel, pull the hand brake and woooosh, ur rear end will end up where your nose was pointing. Simple reason is that the rear tyres locked up loosing much of their directional grip. I hope we all agree about this.

    So let’s apply the hand brake thing in reverse, to our front tyres, if they lock up first what is it going to happen? Racing school will teach you that the car “won’t turn with locked front tyres”.. that is right, but it is only part of the story, actually, locked front tyres will align the car into the direction of travel; that is a more complete description.

    So if you manage to lock your front without locking your rears you will save pretty much every slide, even a 180 degress slide (remember the car reaction with the hand brake? it swapped ends).

    On to the sims now… how come it is so easy to get into this situation of locked fronts and unlocked rears in the sims? Let’s see some of the reasons:

    – Brake pedal resolution. In real life, brakes work with pressure and the limit is strength you have in ur foot. In a sim, the brake pressure is determined by a pedal position, with a definite minimum and maximum. The maximum is often set to maximise the control and usage of the brake pedal in normal situations. If a real car has a potential braking torque of X but this (as it often is the case) overpower the tyres potential grip the sim is often set to have the maximum a little above the tyre limit. This avoids having that terrible feeling of locking tyres as soon you touch the brake. It is often the case that this value is not enough to lock the rear tyres (more rotational inertia, more grip and all that stuff) so you get that behaviour you condemn. In real life this would be probably a “PANIC” manouver, just hit the brake as hard as you get.. but there is no “maximum” in real life, so it would be impossible to reproduce it in a constant way as in the sims. In RL you’ll have to find the right pressure needed to lock the fronts and not the rears.. and consistently repeat this in a PANIC situation. Still asking yourself why nobody really bothers teaching this stuff? In RL you fix it the right way ™: you avoid the spin in the first place 😉

    – Setup. If we get a 100% front brake bias, we’ll be able to save pretty much every slide. Is it cheating? No, it’s just stupid! it means we’re giving up optimal brake distribution (thus, lap times)  to save our asses when we make a mistake.  No driver nor engineer in with a sane brain would even think about this.

    – Finally, potential software bugs. It happens, I’ve been there all my life 😀 . It’s important to make sure a rear tyre at high slip angles will lock instantly even with very low braking torque. But heavy front biased braking and gas on will still save the slide if the brake pedal maximum is set too low.
    Want to prove all these things right? Get in your favourite sim and set the brake gain as high as you can ( you should be able to lock tyres with 20% brake pressure) then slide, brake hard and watch the car completing the spin slowly coming to a stop ;), just as we see on TV.

    Sorry for the rant.. I love this topic :P”

    • Di Gital Blend

      The point is, that you can do this thing in iR with almost any brake bias settings, no metter is it 56% or 70% on fronts, you will almost always succed with that trick.

    • Marco Conti

      In a previous post I pointed out I Have been saving slides with my brakes only (but otherwise with the same result) since I started simracing on a number of different sims. Especially when one just starts, the instinct is to stomp on the brakes whenever things start going south and that’s how exploits like these are discovered. Then it becomes  a habit since stomping on the brakes and saving the race is preferable to spinning out of control pretty much every time!

      I certainly have my own beefs with iRacing (magic first lap anyone?) but given that I can save a car almost in the same exact way on just about any other sim I own, I honestly don’t see the need to use this for the sole purpose of thrashing iracing publicly.

      My goodness the venom some of the people here have. No pun intended,  but get a grip. This is a hobby for 99% of the people here. You’d think iRacing dated your little sister and brought her back home in a shopping cart. 

      As I said, I have my opinions about iRacing, but the venom I have been reading is out of place. Especially the venom against those that, like me, are still members there. I do most of my racing elsewhere, but iRacing gives me a value I cannot get elsewhere and I resent the implications of some of the comments. 

      (Apologies to the OP, the last few sentences are not referred to the post I am replying to)

      • Anonymous

        You are an intelligent, classy and well spoken person. Very well put are your observations.

  • Anonymous

    I have been saying this is silly for ages. I refer to it as the “Paris Hilton stomp”, as I couldn’t quite convey how far from the reality of skillful race-car driving this technique is. It’s how I imagine Paris Hilton would react in an automatic 4×4 in a road accident – scream, and stomp on all the controls simultaneously.

    This kind of driving has no place in a competitive racing environment. What if the kids that are learning to drive on iRacing go out in to the real world and actually apply this learned, instinctive reaction in a genuine racing accident? The consequences could be disastrous.

    When it’s portrayed as a training tool for aspiring drivers and pros alike, you simply can’t let things like this slip through the net.

    • Anonymous

      Senile old people do this all the time. And end up parked in the middle of some store.

  • Anonymous

    If I’d just seen that video out side this article. I’d think, “what an arcade piece of &^%$”. I guess after more then 15 yrs. of Sim racing I’m still a Noob. I didn’t know about this exploit, or any others. No wonder I can never keep up with the best, cheaters.  Of course cheaters are realistic. It happens all the time in racing and life. Not a gentleman’s sport no more.

  • Michael Gribble

    Really, this is what this site has come to?  If the bias of this was not clear before, it certainly is now.

    How is this ‘article’ anything but a bash on iRacing?  iRacing and (most) of its members have never claimed that their sim was perfect.

    I am going to make assumption here, but I highly doubt that you would ever post something like this for pCARS.  Even if after its release there are still major flaws in their physics.

    • Anonymous

      Its part of whats happening now in the simracing community ( a quite big happenning i must say). It doesnt have to be only content on this site.
      We can discuss it on the iRacing forum but when its here i suddenly biased. Grow up.

      • Anonymous

        Maybe he doesn’t like his favorit exploit being advertised?

    • Big Ron

       You can do this in pCARS, too. I played a lot sims and most of them did it.

    • Anonymous

      So according to you I can’t report on anything remotely bad happening in other sims because it would be “bashing” them?

      What makes this significant is the fact that iRacing uses their software for some high-profile leagues and competitions, prizes include large cash sums, real race car rides etc.

      That makes this a major problem, cheating is always a pain in all virtual racing but with so much at stake, this becomes a deal breaker issue imo and it’s certainly worth to be reported about.

      iRacing gets the most exposure in the real racing world and is working to be closely associated with “real racing” so yes, putting their physics issues under a magnifying glass is important because it’s the base for all their competitions.

      • Michael Gribble

        Here’s the thing that gets me, why is this considered ‘cheating’?  At most, it saves you from crashing the car.  Unlike other issues that are out there, using this bug does not make you any faster.  You’re not going to win any races by having to use this all the time, not in the top tier of iRacing anyway.

        And I’m not saying that it doesn’t need to be fixed, but putting an article on here about it is only going to blow it way out of proportion.

      • Anonymous

        You can do this in every sim I’ve ever tried: rfactor, pcars, nkp, lfs, every one of them.  This website’s motives are very clear having posted such a ridiculous story.

    • Anonymous

      think you’ll find most of the iracing community DO Think that its ‘far superior to any other sim’. They probably dont say its perfect but they definitely think its the best thing ever. 

      the thing is……………its no better than rf2, or netkar pro. 

      Of course…when they end up spending $300 on iracing, they have to justify it – thats probably why they will forever say its the best. To admit that its no better than any other decent sim game, is to admit that its been a total waste of money. (and it is…. a total waste of money).

      • Michael Gribble

        In your opinion it is a total waste of money.  I think it has been a good investment personally.  In my opinion, no other sim out there right now has the sort of online competition that iRacing has, outside of having to join a league anyway.

        I don’t mind having to pay a premium for the service.  When I log onto iRacing I can almost always find a race to join.  And the racing there is at least relatively clean and competative, compared to joining public servers on other sims.

        Either way, I will never go around telling other people that they are wasting their money on a sim that they enjoy playing.  It’s all about personal preference, and I prefer iRacing.  If you prefer something else, that’s fine with me.  In the end, it’s all about having fun.

  • noro ardanto

    I guess If not for the cash prizes/big rewards potentially being rewarded to “cheaters” this bug will not be a big problem?

  • sargentjack86

    This is news how??? I thought it was common knowledge that iRacing was an unrealistic POS……when I first tried the 3 month trail period a year or two ago I straight away noticed people abusing the plain awful physics to put in super fast lap times by driving in a manner that could only be described as arcadey in a supposed race sim………

    Then I thought to check on some of these “aliens” record laps on youtube…..sure enough even the most famous guys were doing things that defy gravity…..physics… name it they were throwing the rules out the window as they drove sideways through ridiculous corners.

    I pretty quickly realised that not only was iRacing a complete and total rip off it was geared towards rewarding uber abusive driving techniques and loopholes in the so called physics engine.

    iRacing was an over hyped crap hole when it came out and has been ever since. What strikes me as amazing is that people are only just realising this. I guess when you have invested a small fortune in what turned out to be sparkling turd then you need to convince yourself that it is actually brilliant to avoid partial sanity problems.

    • Anonymous

      weird statement, if you look at the iRacing mermber list. to me it looks like a big success. 

      With words like ridiculous, Plain awfull, hyped crap and so on, the only thing you are saing, is that you dont like something, and want the rest of the world to comply.

      I will bet you that if you would state your favourite sim, there would be just as much users using the same trick on you.  🙂 

      The web has more heroes then Mattel…thats for sure. 

      • Ryan M J Callan

         Ha, great line, ‘more heroes than Mattel’ (although I’m sure you mean Marvel :D)

      • Anonymous

        lol , i actually did ..  I guess Mattel makes the puppets, so its still sorta right 😉

      • sargentjack86

        Yeah but iRacing is actually shite so the amount of members is not important. 😉 What is important (and hilarious) is that they all got ripped off and I didn’t.

        And yes……..any sim that requires an outlay of over $500 to purchase all the content is a rip off no matter which way you look at it.

        You have 20 seconds to comply with this opinion.

  • Frank Johansen

    This is not a bug, just awesome driver skills that only 0.4% of the iRacing community can replicate.

  • Anonymous
  • Tomaž Meglic

    Long thread but at the end is pretty simple. Watch telemetry footwork in real life racing and compare it to iracing or other simracing games – its still far from realistic to be honest.

  • Marco Conti

    i read the thread referred to in this article when it was only 2 pages long and I did not contribute to it because I didn’t think it would go very far. Was I wrong.

    What I was going to contribute is this: I have been saving slides in exactly the same way since I started with iRacing 2 years ago. It works best on the Williams and the Star Mazda (a bit less on the indy car) and I use no gas. Only the brakes and the car behaves exactly the same. Occasionally I may modulate brakes and gas, especially if I am in a long wide turn where I keep losing traction, but most times the brakes alone are sufficient.

    Incidentally, I am able to do the same thing on NKpro, rFactor and other sims. Not in all cars and mods, but most cars with little body roll it works pretty good.

  • Anonymous

    🙂  there is not a single peace of software in the world that sooner or later has some sort of problem.
    As far as Sim Racing products are concerned , we all know we can find flaws in all of them
    At least with iRacing, since day one i learned they do address problems in a fast and professional way.  I guess we cant say that from every sim product we know.

    • Anonymous

      I agree, except maybe the fact they address it fast. People here say its been abused for 2 years at least.

      • Marcel Offermans

        Ben stated the problem has been in the simulation since GPL, so I agree with osella here that they are not fixing it that quickly. I’m sure it has been known for a long time already, by many.

    • Markus Ott

      iRacing service and fast? iRacing service must be the slowest of all sims.

      • Anonymous

        we must be living on different planets.  I know products with 2 patches in a life time. i am sure you do to.

  • jswarthoff
    • Peter Osburg

      What you can see there is real good skill! All wheels are locked, shortly released for a quick acceleration or rolling and then locked again. This is a difference this is definitely not gas and brake at the same time.

    • Anonymous

      This is the classic slide save as taught in driving school. Don’t touch brakes or gass, turn your wheels into the slide. If your lucky, you can recover it.

  • Anonymous

    No sim is gonna replace reallife. Just enjoy the comp and use this if you are sliding. It doesn’t give you any time advantage. Normal driving is still the way to make a long run stick in iRacing. Ti’s about enjoying the sim everyone who thinks that it should be like realworld will have to wait a couple of decades…

  • Taavi Liivo

    Left foot braking in rallying is for what exactly then? It’s for controlling the slide through the corner so the car stays “as straight as possible” through the turn. (you’re supposed to slide on loose surfaces). So i would say that a sim where this “2FMSH” doesn’t work is unrealistic, not the other way around.

    • spamsac

      I’m sorry, but this is a really weak argument. Just because some rally drivers (and drivers in other forms of motorsport) left foot brake doesn’t mean that the behaviour being discussed in iRacing (and many other sims) is realistic.

      For a start, did you actually watch/listen to the video you posted? The question is asked “Why do you left foot brake?”, the answer is to save time from transitioning between being on the throttle and on the brakes. I don’t see McRae pressing both pedals at the same time to any real degree in that video for one (which is what is being discussed). No one is saying it is unrealistic to left foot brake, which is about all that video can be used as argument for.

      Now there are times when drivers press both pedals at the same time in real life. It can be used as a manual form of anti-lag to keep the exhaust gasses flowing (and hence turbo spooled up) in turbo charged cars for example (not needed on the Focus in your video since it has proper anti-lag). In some cars it is useful as it helps to manage the diff and maximise traction (a great example here:, though again, don’t confuse this with the unrealistic levels of throttle being held by some iRacers when braking- a different though perhaps connected issue to the one at hand). But that doesn’t mean that slamming the brakes on and holding the throttle corrects a sliding car. Not at all.

      There is quite solid evidence in the telemetry shown in the iRacing thread that something is wrong; there is incorrect torque being transferred from the drive-train to the car when the driving wheels are locked. This physically makes no sense. It isn’t something to argue, debate, or look at YouTube videos for for some sort of counter argument: it is fundamentally wrong.

  • Ashley Butler

    This is great. If this was any other game/sim you would be all slating it. but no iRacing “The god of sim racing” get PRAISED for it.

    There is no hope.

  • Ricoo

    This news is unfair since this can be done in every sim and even in real life.

    And moreover this can’t make you win a race since you loose time saving a slide, so this is not a problem for leagues or events with prize.

    Montoya it’s the first time you disappoint me. 🙁

    • kr1nz

       You loose time and tires saving a slide 🙂

    • Anonymous

      Yeah offcourse if you lose time, it right away stops you from winning a race…
      Its just a cheat to avoid a big crash and probably a DNF. So yeah its a problem for events and prizes.

    • Anonymous

      Totally agree, what is this place? a tabloid??

      • Anonymous

         Judging by the responses, yes it is.  

    • Anonymous

      It is reportedly much more difficult to do this in pCars. It isn’t realistic. Every read a race driving book from any of the experts? Nothing about hitting the  gas and break as hard as you can, to recover a slide. Instead they tell you to turn into the slide, and keep your foot off the pedals. It is also different from left foot breaking. Which is just to speed up reaction time. Not to use both pedals at the same time. There is a stunt driving maneuver using both. But it is very hard on the vehicle. Race car drivers would never use it. And you don’t see race car drivers saving their cars with this, ever.

    • Anonymous

       Is this same news just as unfair on the iRacing forum ?  I think there you will find many who may disagree with you.
      And you don’t ‘loose’ time, you ‘lose’ time.

      • Michael Gribble

        Why would it be unfair to have it on the iRacing forums?  That’s where it belongs.  Just like people complaining about pCARS on here does no good for that game.

      • Anonymous

        Why are you asking me that ?  It didn’t say it would be unfair.
        It wouldn’t be unfair.  I was asking a question, not making a statement.  

        But it’s not to say that iRacing news doesn’t belong here either.  

        Looks like its pCARS vs the world right now doesn’t it ?   Everything on here seems to revolve around it these days.

  • Anonymous

    Montoya, is it p C.A.R.S. that paid you for this?
    How about you make a post about any other sim innacuracy then, I don’t know anything, it’s not like there is nothing to find.
    Until then you’re just another hater.

    • Markus Ott

       EvanMaillard did iRacing pay you to post this? Or are you just another hater?

      • Anonymous

        Nice trolling attempt, but a hater got to hate on something to be called one, and this is not my case.

    • Marco Conti

      Nobody is paying me for this and I own and use iracing, pCARS, rFactor 1then a few others. I think Montoya published this news not because the problem exists, but because it is being discussed fervently on iRacing and pretty much everyone noticed it.

      personally, I don’t think it is limited to iRacing and I am sure I Have used a similar trick in other sims with the same ultimate result. I think accusing Montoya of some sort of evil conspiracy against iracing is a bit much

      • Anonymous

        “I think Montoya published this news not because the problem exists, but because it is being discussed fervently on iRacing and pretty much everyone noticed it.”


        It obviously is a huge deal for iRacers as well, otherwise that forum topic wouldn’t have exceeded 20 pages. It’s an important news story and I’m reporting it, end of story.

        What makes this a huge deal is the fact that iRacing hosts major competitions using their software and having an exploit in there that is being used for years (!) now is a huge deal if you ask me. It may be true that a similar effect is present in other sims but if you’re having such high-profile races and events, the topic becomes that much more touchy and it deserves to be reported.

      • Eric Potvin

        Well, we know a thread dealing with a problem in pCars would never get to 20 pages long now would we? lol

      • Anonymous

         The pCars argument is getting old very quickly.  

      • Michael Gribble

        It still don’t understand how this is that big of a deal for the competitions going on in iRacing.  As a number of us have stated, using this ‘hack’ isn’t going to win you any races.

        And what do you expect?  Does does a sim need to be 100% accurate for them to be able to host those competitions?

        What about the old tire model?  You could drive the cars way more aggressively than is possible in real life with little to no ill effect.  Was that a ‘hack’ as well?

      • Anonymous

         “As a number of us have stated, using this ‘hack’ isn’t going to win you any races.”

        That’s kinda missing the point.
        In F1, if you cut a corner and you have another car right up your gearbox, and after you cut the corner you remain in that position, it’s not that you’ve gained a place, it’s that you have failed to lose one.

        Same here.  It’s not that it doesn’t win you races, but it stops you from being out of one you maybe otherwise normally would have been.  Or at least stops you from losing places you otherwise would have.  To that end, it is an advantage.

        Having said that I remember way back in the 90’s when Jacques Villeneuve was in F1 and he commented on a big slide he got into and he saved it and corrected the car by hitting the brakes.  So there may be something to it, I dunno.  
        Either way, its clearly a hot topic in the iRacing community so it’s presence here as a topic is completely justified.   

    • Anonymous

      Careful there, lad. 

      Looks like I might be doing some more tidying up before long if people can’t control themselves with their comments.

  • Dylan Sharman

     no sim is perfect, i bet this happens in all sim and sometimes in real life…. cheap shot i believe

  • Anonymous

    Cheap Blow, I expect better from this site!

    • Anonymous

      Did you mean cheap shot or low blow ?

      Anyway, silly comment, I expect better from you.

      (I wonder if DickBanananana will ‘like’ my post too as that’s all he seems to be able to do on here.)

      • Anonymous

        all i’m saying is that your damaging the credibility of a perfectly good site, and you should try to put yourself in better light as embassador of this site with out childish comments as clearly you’ve lost your cool!

      • Anonymous

        I’m damaging the credibility ?   So all these people who post about Montoya’s supposed bias, or troll, or those ‘like’ the troll messages are not damaging the credibility ?    Give me a break.
        This thread was damaged before I got here.

        What light would you rather see me in ?   I’m supposed to put up with people who post with accusations, insults and bad language ?  Maybe offer them some light theraputic responses like some Zen Buddhist.
        Well forget that.  It’s not that I’ve lost my cool, it’s that I speak my mind.  Something which the people I respond to should have no trouble relating to.   You’ll get out of me what you give.
        Be nice and I`ll be nice.   Post like an insolent kid and I won’t be so nice.  I’m not going to hold you hand when you get naughty.   You should all be big boys now.   

  • Anonymous

    The worst unrealistic problem in the entire Sim Scene seems to be ourselves!

    Sim Racers hating Sim Racing, 
    Modding Teams hating Modders
    Winners hating losers
    Losers hating winners
    Websites, hating blogs
    Fan boys hating Fan sites
    People who comment hating people who reply comments…

    Common guy´s .. its our hobby.  There will always be things wrong with anything.
    In the end all products are free of choice, no gun held to the head.

    Is it so hard to enjoy what you like, and leave it at that?
    No Sim ever got better by hating the sh** out of it.

    • George Talbot


    • Anonymous

      Your very right, just a thought though, as the fronts lock the front of the car understeer s, the gas stops the rears locking essentially giving full front bias which is how this works, does this work In the front wheel drive jetta?

    • Gonzalo Rodriguez Sastre

      Amen Wix

    • Trux1


    • Diego Colafabio

       Amen bro

  • Anonymous

    For unbiased news choose

    • George Talbot

       Agreed, but they do like Assetto Corsa a lot. But what’s not to like so far.

  • Anonymous

    An exploit that if used on every corner of every lap would have you finish last . . . cheating bastards!

  • Philip Samuelson

    While this exploit did result in a “wow” out of me, shit happens, sometimes it happens to you. If the game developers had a checklist for every glitch to look for, the game would never be released.

    My question… Who the hell figured this out? Seriously, at what point would ANYBODY actually RACING the car apply 100% throttle and brake? I’ve been sim-raing for 14 years, and never once have I pulled that off. That being said, I drive the cars as they’re meant to be driven. I don’t off-road with F1 cars, I don’t take ALMS cars on ovals. I don’t mess around. Not to say there’s anything wrong with messing around, but damn if I’m paying a monthly fee for something, I sure as hell ain’t wasting my time finding exploits!

    Interesting video 🙂


  • Stuart

    I am not an iracing subscriber but what I can say is this is the best bug EVER for making awesome video highlights! 

  • Lemming77

    I don’t know whether this is really a bug or an exploit, as it seems realistic to me. Even if it is a bad idea to use it, let alone depend on it.

    The drive at the rear wheels cancels out the stopping power of the brakes, and the rear tires wind up in a fairly neutral position. Meanwhile, the fronts will be pushed to their limits stopping the car. So you effectively get a huge shift towards understeer, due to the abundance of grip at the rear, giving you that corrective force. It works better in lower gears, or in more powerful cars, as the engine can cancel out the braking force even more.

    I don’t know whether this is at all exaggerated in iRacing, especially as I imagine it varies tremendously from car to car. I say it should increase demand for wear and tear simulation however, as this trick will absolutely knacker your car. As with that, anyone trying this trick will soon find their tires shredded, their engine demolished and their brakes burning.

    • Anonymous

      Thats exactly what I thought hence the comment further down this page! in real life if would be tricky to apply that much brake pressure in a real car though, with potentiometers based pedals thats absolutley no problem.

  • Roger Owen

    The two foot save is more of a challenge to pull off in the Mustang on the NTM. Theres a real sense that you have to find just the right amount of braking and throttle. Ive not felt anything as good as that in any sim including iRacing’s other evolving cars when it comes to the two feet in save.

  • Anonymous
  • Undastir Pushin

    ah, virtualR in the pocket of PCARS, a week has gone by with the announcment of Bathurst, yet the only news is some lame bug, I have never seen news about a bug in rfactor or any other sim on here. But when you have a news site run by someone who will gain by the fall of one sim, to another, this is what happens.

    • Anonymous

      Christ I’m getting really sick of this shit.

      First off, pCARS is hardly competing with iRacing.  They cannot be rivals. Two completely different approaches and business models.   
      The fact that Montoya is employed at SMS does not give you or anyone carte blanche to go around citing accusations of bias.   Montoya may tolerate it but I won’t.  
      Remember you are on his blog….  HIS blog.   He can post what he likes and we have to work around it.

      No sim or racing game is perfect, they all have their quirks.   The ONLY reason this one stands out is because of all the attention it is getting at the iRacing forum.   It seems to be quite a big issue and therefore it is newsworthy.
      It’s got nothing to do with Montoya or SMS gaining from it.   As if !    As if he would try that without thinking about getting ‘found out’.  If it was a ploy, would it work ? Has it worked ?   Are more people flocking to pCARS now  ?   NO !  

      So cut the crap and enough of those accusations !    Fair warning.

      (DickBananana doesn’t ‘like’ this)

      • Undastir Pushin

        I already plan on being cencored for this, so your warning against me does nothing. What I am doing is calling it like I see it, just like everyone else here. There is no crap in this accusation, because its all very clear. Where was a story about pCARS banning people for pointing out flaws in their physics? That was really huge and was banned from the comments. Point me.

      • Anonymous

        Oh you planned on it did you ?  So then it was a pre-meditated.  That’s the definition of a troll.
        Well that warning wasn’t just for you, but goes for anyone planning on arguing this pcars-bias crap.   Any more of it and I`ll be calling it like I see it too.

        If your head was screwed on right you’d be able to answer your own question. 

        Now if you wanna discuss the iRacing topic at hand, by all means go ahead.
        Stay away from questioning any imagined motives as to why it is here in the first place.

      • Undastir Pushin

        not trolling at all, the only pre-meditated thing about it was knowing the bias that this site has against iRacing. Why were we not allowed to even talk about the bugs of the other sims yet this is a major headline, over even talking about Bathurst being signed by iRacing, and Max Papis working on Monza for iRacing. Will be looking forward to the next 20 headlines of new screen shots of pCARS over the next two weeks. By the way iRacing has been posting new renders almost every week of their current cars, why not post those too, we get the same cars, with different shots weekly from pCARS? Bias, its an evil thing for someone saying there is none.

      • Anonymous

         No one is stopping you on here from talking about bugs of sims.  What a load of utter rubbish.   Jeez, people barely do anything else !    That you think you aren’t allowed, is in your mind.

        Visit a pCARS thread and discuss the bugs of a pre-alpha (cos as we know, pre-alpha’s shouldn’t have bugs).  No-one will stop you or censor you.   You only run that risk if the manner in which you express yourself goes out of the boundaries of what is acceptable behaviour (i.e. insults, bad language, trolling etc.).  Other than that,  knock yourself out.

        pCARS has one set of screenshots per week, not 20.  And that is when the weekly build surfaces.  If any pCARS news of note happens within that week it may get posted too.

        As for the iRacing renders you`ll have to speak to Montoya, but I doubt you’re on his Christmas card list right now.

        Where did you make up that last sentence from ?   I think it’s evil when there either is bias, or being accused of it when there isn’t any !

      • Philip Samuelson

         I’d like to be on Montoya’s Christmas Card list… 🙂

        My apologies for being off topic, just trying to bring some light to the situation. Keep fighting the good fight, Racer!

      • Lemming77

        I personally think this news post should be amended, pointing out that the trick works in other sims. It’d be a nice way to get that out in the open.

        But the fact remains, this is a big deal within iRacing, whether it exists outside iRacing or not. Think of it more as a community observation. “These people are pissed off about what appears to be an exploit”, as opposed to “hey guys, look how crap iRacing is, LOL!”

      • Anonymous

         I think it’s been pointed out enough already 🙂

        But this doesn’t mean iRacing is crap.  Not in the least. Maybe it’s not even a bug but just an expliot that people are using to their advantage in times of what would otherwise be a falling off the track.
        I reckon if iRacing feel that it needs looking at and fixing based on their forums responses, then they will.  If that is the case then that will put iRacing 1 step above all the other sims you can do it in, right ? 🙂
        But yeah, it’s just what you said… its causing upset over at iRacing right now and the news of that has spilled over to here.  It really isn’t any more complex than that.

        Some people here like to jump on any little opportunity to see things as SMS consipiracies.
        It’s so petty.    I’ve worked at SMS in the past and those guys simply do not work like that and I know Montoya doesn’t either.  And I know I’m sick of reading posts that try to accuse otherwise.

      • Undastir Pushin

        Fair Warning, you cant be that blind.

        Where was the story about people being banned over at pCARS, same thing, much bigger issue, and we couldnt even comment on it here.

    • Anonymous

      Montoya did post a news article about Bathurst, though none about the mid season NTM on the V8 and Mustang.

  • Jamie323

    Like I said, I hope pCars fails. It’s on its way with this horrible physics. 

  • Anonymous

    iRacing has the best tracks in sim racing period. iRacing has some of the worse tires and car physics in sim racing period.

  • Niels Heusinkveld

    While I don’t think iRacing is nearly as realistic as it should be, this behavior isn’t that strange or magic. To some extend, the engine power cancels out the braking that is done at the rear. Say this is achieved perfectly, then you have a 100% front brake bias, with free rolling rear tires.

    The front tires are locked, so regardless of steering, they produce contact patch force perfectly in the opposite direction the car is traveling. Even at 25 degrees car yaw angle, the front tire force is mainly longitudinal (braking). Rear tires purely rolling produce virtually only lateral (cornering) force.

    Which way will the car turn? Well its kinda simplified but calculate the torque each tire grip puts around the car center of gravity. Both the rear tires produce lateral force, which both create great rotation potential. The front tires create less yaw torque around the car center of gravity because they are braking more than turning. Result? The car will straighten out.

    The results will vary a lot because in each gear, you change the driving torque at the rear wheels yet the braking torque is the same maximum in each gear. I guess in 6th gear, you can’t keep the rear wheels from locking up and the car will rotate more and possibly spin out. In 1st gear at low speed, perhaps the driving torque is much greater than the braking torque, so you still get big wheelspin, which acts kinda the same as a locked tire (no lateral grip), so you may spin out too.

    It is likely to work in quite a few cars in quite a few sims. The only “bug” is us, self proclaimed simracers approaching it like a game, doing things you would never do in real life… I needed a gamepad to try this out as I can’t get my feet to do this, even in a simulator!

    • Anonymous

      Thanks for the explanation Neils.  Interesting stuff.

      Maybe a stupid question, but if the car was FWD would the effect be different ?

      • Niels Heusinkveld

         It wouldn’t work with FWD; there is no way to keep the rears rolling why locking the fronts, unless you are going quickly and just forcing a gearshift to 1st gear, which will lock the fronts and not the rears.

      • Anonymous

         Thx Niels.

  • Michael Gribble

    Well, regardless of what anyone says, why doesn’t everyone just try it out for themselves and make up their own minds?

    1-Month free iRacing if anyone is interested: 

  • fast johnny

    Paying incredibly overhyped prices, does not make the best sim experience. GPL is still the best community, and this “bug” has been present in it forever. That kills me that iracing is still that closely related to the 14 year old GPL physics model, LOL.

    • Anonymous

      It works on rFactor too, this doesn’t mean rFactor is closely related to GPL…
      It just shares the same grip level flaws (like pretty much every other sim except NetKarPro)

      • fast johnny

         I know that, but if you do some homework, you will see the base physics code for it, actually is pretty much old gpl/n2k3 code. If you look into it a bit more, the skippy is almost the identical 14 year old code of gpls f2 car.

      • Anonymous

        Good to know you had an opportunity to open the iRacing files, can I do that too?

      • fast johnny

        I did not open any files. Cant say how I know, but I do.

      • Anonymous

        Yeah sure…
        I also know that pC.A.R.S is running on the same engine as Need For Speed Porsche.
        I can’t say how I know that tho, but believe me I do.

    • Anonymous

      got to agree its expensive, but i think what you do get is a good product, There are no other sim wich can match the tracks, for me they are the deal breaker! I pre ordered langley for £5 96 the other day…for a laser scanned track that’s incredible… would like to see prices down to £5 a track and car, eventually it may get there!

  • Jason Cooper

    i suppose if i played iracing and paid so much $$ at iracing for everything, then yes i would want it fixed. so i think the members have the right to comment, chat and ask for it to b fixed. IMHO

  • Anonymous

    I think this sort of issue is in all sim games , I know even FVA has some glitches in its physics despite in my opinion offering the best overall F1 car handling. 

    Things like this also highlight aspects of simulators and Sim racing where drivers will do things that you simply would not do in a real car , Sim racers will drive far more aggressively ( in some ways less in others due to lack of feel) and do things that real drivers would not do for fear of putting unnecessary ware on the car. 

    There is also the aspect of braking your legs and other body parts in real life making racing on tracks and the development of car set-ups far more progressive and conservative. 

    In the end however realistic simulators are they are not the real thing, sure they are a fantastic tool to learn the real thing but in the end its a different activity with its own intrinsic aspects.  
    When people realise that , it might affect there willingness to put down so much money as it contradicts allot of the marketing that goes behind services like i-racing.That’s not to say i-racing or any of these sim’s are bad I just think its good to maintain a healthy underdstanding in regards to the limitations of current software and the nature of companies advertising departments. 

    As a final point so long as everyone knows the issues in the simulation then its not really an issue to competition………
    Just to throw my foot in the bonfire Obviously when a reviewer/comontator is associated with a specific product readers are going to think they have a motive behind certain posts or a conflict of interest.

    At the same time just because there is that potential that does not mean that they are actively pursuing an agenda.

    In the end Its not like The owner of this site is working in government pushing things that are life and death , and if the site did become obviously bias then it wont be long before users go to other sites.I don’t think people could make an argument ether way from the information to hand virtual r as a site works well for me and I enjoy the comment sections and the regular news posts.  Still Its worth voicing concerns as people have done so that attitudes are transparent.

  • maklique

    Thanks to virtualr for this post, without these I would not notice anything about this topic, but i think this blog has lost their diplomatic status in the heads of many readers. All of these post have a bad flavor and you have to live with these shitstorms. This is only my opinion!

  • Martin Rasmussen

    I read the article, saw the video, and wow… I couldn’t care less. What I didn’t expect was flamewars going on in the comments. Seriously, how old are you guys? 14? I’ve been reading this blog for a loooong time, and I’ve never seen anything being biased. Relax and enjoy the fact that this site exists.

  • Emil Ytterberg Blixt

    I think all analytic critisism is a good thing as it helps moving things forward. If something’s broken it should be fixed. However I enjoy different aspects of most sim’s available today. nkP and RBR for sheer driving experience, iR and rF2 for community and net code, hell, I even still use LFS from time to time. The dream of course would be the ultimate sim, with the best aspects of all the above but until that, just be glad that there is competition!

    • spamsac

      A sensible comment! What’s going on here?!?…

      • Anonymous

         Nice isn’t it.  It’s rare, so respect to those that manage it.

  • Ini mene

    Two knowledgeable people (Niels Heusinkveld and Stefano Casillo) have explained why this is not a bug in the simulator software and you still complain. Please stop using your wannabe home-grown understanding of the laws of physics.

    • maklique

      Where can I find stefanos statement? I’m interested in his opinion. Thank you!

      • Rhys Gardiner

        Check out lullilulli’s post further down this page.

      • maklique

         Thanks Rhys!

    • Big Ron

      They explained nothing, they just used a cheap excuse to justify this glitch (which is present in every sim)

      • Niels Heusinkveld

        Physics is not a cheap excuse! Its about tire forces in certain conditions, it would be BAD if sims didn’t all do this. As far as I can see, when brake and engine torque cancel eachother out at the rear, this SHOULD happen in real life and in sims, and it does, yet we all complain? 😀

        The problem is nobody in their right minds should even THINK about doing this as it isn’t done in real life for many reasons. If you are a simracer you simply laugh at this thing and drive normally.

        Of course it would be great if each sim had perfect wear&tear physics, but even then, we have much too weak brake pedals and steering FFB, we could probably always do things you don’t see in real life.

        People jump on the ‘bug train’ too soon in my opinion. How many bugs did rFactor have, can’t do karts, bug here bug there. Turns out, as is hopefully the case with any decent attempt at a sim, there are far more bugs in the players than in the physics engine 😉

      • spamsac

        I don’t think it’s quite that clear cut though. There are solid (physics based) arguments for why locking the front tyres and keeping the rears moving puts more grip at the rear and thus causes the car to straighten up (to some degree), but this appears to have a massively exaggerated effect within iRacing (some reasons to do with sim vs real life -as alluded to by Stefano within the thread- others seemingly to do with a “bug” in iRacing itself). Within the thread, the telemetry shows that it is happening with all four wheels locked, and most damningly, that there is incorrect torque being applied to the chassis from a locked drive train. It appears there is undoubtedly something “wrong” going on, but what it means in the bigger picture isn’t clear.

        For me this in itself isn’t much of an issue. I want a simulation to be as real as possible as I want a simulation to do just that: simulate something I can’t do in real life. Hence I drive a sim car like I would a real car, so I don’t do things like this and consequently they don’t impinge on my enjoyment of the simulation. My concern stems from what this potentially means for other aspects of the simulation in terms of its accuracy.

        For example, damage model in terms of what happens when a car hits a barrier at 150mph doesn’t really bother me, since whether the car crumples realistically or just dies without a scratch, it’s game over either way. But whilst a car’s ability to, say, perform realistic doughnuts doesn’t necessarily matter as I won’t be doing them in a race, it points towards something being wrong with the tyres or some other area of the simulation that may well have significant impacts on “normal” behaviour.

        It does seem to be getting blown out of all proportion though. Sticking with iRacing, there a numerous “issues” with the core engine; things that aren’t right or properly implemented, but so too there are in any simulation out there. I think it is absolutely right to raise awareness of these things and to discuss them, hopefully so they can be understood and rectified. iRacing is a long way from perfect, but it’s also a lot closer than most.

        If people want to use stupid set ups, drive in unrealistic ways or use “cheats” and “hacks” then that’s their call. I’ll stick to driving in the best way I can and enjoying simulations’ best attempts to grant me this experience. I don’t care about winning or being quick, I care about the experience.

        I’ll just continue waiting for Racing Legends 😀

      • Anonymous

        With all the, lets say, less constructive posts in this thread, when I read ones like this and the one from Neils, I just want to ‘like’ it 🙂     So refreshing.

  • devotid

    just dont spin out and you wont have this problem……..

  • Mark

    There doesn’t seem to be an agreement over whether this is realistic or not. The same also occurs in most other sims. This ‘news’ is based off a single thread discussing it in the internal iRacing forum. Let’s say, I’m surprised this has been published as a news item by VirtualR.

  • Richard Hessels

    I think the snap oversteer is a bigger flaw than this so called “exploit”.

    When you use this trick, by the time you recovered your sideways going car, half the field already passed you by on the inside.

  • Pablo Coronel

    This happen when you spit up, all iRacers claim that IR is that, is those, the real simulator, etc, and in the end, is the same thing like all sims, all have pros and cons, divine justice.

  • Benjamin Mikhaiel  works exactly the same in lfs, rfactor it works on some mods, netkar its possible but really hard.

  • Danny

    Hey f1racer you are currently being bagged out in the iracing forums, and of course I am contributing. Pity you cant delete those posts huh?

    Have fun clown. lol

  • Anonymous


    • Philip Samuelson

       I think you may be onto something, but the problem I see with it is that under most all circumstances, the rear wheels should stop spinning fairly quickly, especially on front engine cars. The fact that they showed in the video above that the Aussie V8’s rear wheels continued to spin tells me it’s larger than trying to recreate what is in that F1 video you showed.

      Very nice contribution though, interesting to see :).


    • Anonymous

      The glitch is that it also works when rears are locked.

  • Klaus Rachbauer

    If this is big  iRacing news why does this trick work in all other simulators. 
    It also work in arcade games like pCars.

    • Anonymous

       because its a big controversy at iracing forum since days

      • Anonymous

        No, it isn’t a controversy, and no we are not “debating the severity of the issue”. There are a lot of interesting posts on that thread, a lot of people with telemetry data, we all are just looking why this appens. No one is bashing iR physic or devs work. There is something maybe not so close with realty, and we just have found a “solution”, that is related to the difficulty to control a drift, and is a thing under development by the staff. There are also other things related, like the antistall clutch, and the absence of tire flatspotting ATM. 

        It’s just ridiculos how the virtualr staff thinks it is an interesting news, because you can do the same, or similar thing in EVERY sim, since gpl. There were also championschips with money prizes on rFactor too, so, I really don’t understand where the “news” is. 

      • Anonymous

         The news is in the fact that it is currently a hot topic in the iRacing forums.
        It seems a lot of people in the iRacing thread deem it interesting news regardless of how many other sims you can do it it.  Doesn’t mean its correct does it ?
        The difference with championships in iRacing is that iRacing is more of an investment based sim and rFactor isn’t.  Everything you get in iRacing, you pay for.  And if you’re paying for content to race with for cash prizes, then you should be interested when news of exploits like this come up.
        I would be if I was racing for cash prizes at iRacing. 
        So while it may not be interesting to all, at least try to understand that it is for some.

  • sargentjack86

    You have 20 seconds to comply with my opinion.

    • Anonymous

      If I got that printed on T-shirts, I think I`d make a fortune selling them in this community. 🙂

  • Anonymous
    • sargentjack86

      I fail to see how any of those situation could be viewed as unrealistic in a sim……….none of them are similar to the iracing video posted above.

  • Anonymous

    A few videos that show that you can also do it with 4 wheels locked (as opposed to only 2 front wheels locked).

    Someone has flagged my previous comment “for review”. It wasn’t offensive to anyone though.
    Censorship ?

    • Anonymous

      No, not censorship.  Don’t jump to conclusions.  I’ve looked at it and I dunno why it was flagged, it looks ok to me.
      There are so many flagged posts in this thread, people are quite trigger happy.  But why your’s was for review, I dunno. Maybe the URL or something.   Still, you got it reposted so you’re good now, right ?

  • Gonzalo Rodriguez Sastre

    the problem is not the physics in some racing videogames that could be considered like racing simulators,  the problem are the peripheral devices we use to PLAY them.

    they are game controllers , even if they could be more or less good and/or expensive they can not replicate the physics as it should.   if you have a hand made 2000€ steering wheel probably you will have an approach. 
     that “2 Foot Magic Save Hax” can be done with a keyboard,a pad, PC steering wheels with low steering ratio and FFB off , also with FFB on, but with a really good steering wheel i guess you will not able to control it,  same as will be very very dificult to be drifing with a Falcon V8 with slicks as if it were a toyota trueno.

    scanned tracks great, CAD data for the cars great, high fidelity on physics awesome, but at the end, even if you enjoy the simulation , if someone is faster that you just because he turn off FFB, or two seconds if he plays with a good pad, you know, nails are faster than arms/legs , not to talk about those games where people can play in nose or tv/cockpit cameras… at the end you will not understand why and where is the problem.

    is a videogame , just that , no matter what real drivers says, a videogame and compared with some other racing videogames , expensive.

    if you want realism you can wait for better computers/peripheral/racing simulators, or go and rent a HI-spec car in a track day.

    one year subcription , one car and two circuits =  15 mins / 5 laps in a real F430   , but that 15 mins believe me are REAL.

    so i will still enjoying with my G25 until August and the F430 arrives xD  or maybe this time 15 mins in a Lambo?


    • Gonzalo Rodriguez Sastre

       woooho!  this year at motorland Aragon circuit:

       Porsche 911 Turbo S Challenge 550 Cv 

      4 laps 116 €  with everything included Medical care and ambulance, Insurance of civil liability and the included vehicle.

      sorry for the off topic but i think i found a good offer  xD.

  • StarFoXySxv550

    Interesting stuff.

    • Anonymous

       Heh, cool.  That looked like a gust of wind was moving him across the track 🙂

  • Benjamin Mikhaiel     oh hey look 2footsave in project cars…

    • Anonymous

      Is anyone saying that pCARS, or any sim, is perfect ?  This video should come as no surprise to anyone as we keep being told that it can be done in all other sims.

      Again, this is not about discrediting iRacing and giving credence to pCARS.   Regardless of what people might think, I do not believe posting this news was motivated by some need to discredit iRacing.   To what end ?  To get iRacers to abandon it and play pCARS instead ?    
      Honestly, I dunno what goes on in peoples heads sometimes.

      From those who have been discussing this properly by talking about how the physics work and why this is happening etc., I find it interesting that some of those people have suggested it could be down to the controllers we use also.
      I so much prefer people who can healthily debate the issue with some knowledge behind what they’re talking about instead of those just looking for some alterior motive or agenda for the topic being posted here in the first place.

      • Benjamin Mikhaiel

        Well if you read my posts on iRacing, you would notice I have been discussing it.

        The post just seemed fairly targeted at iRacing for a number of reasons and there was a fairly obvious lack of going “This actually happens in every sim”

        Also this section.
        “While no physics simulation is perfect and bugs like these are not uncommon in racing games, its presence in iRacing is rather problematic given that the simulation is used to run league and events with rather big cash prizes or awards at stake. ”  To analyse this, to me it says “While no sim is perfect, its presence in iRacing is really really bad for it compared with just other “bugs”. Where as LFS has leagues, rfactor does to, pcars probably will aswell one day. And targeting it as only being a major flaw in iRacing seems poor. Maybe it was just poorly worded.

        More ontopic though, I disagree with it being a controller issue, because nomatter what the steering input the spin is still corrected, in each sim i tried it in. Also giving a car enough pedal pressure to lock up the wheels does require a bit of force but it is quite doable. As thousands of car accidents have proved.
        Also with the fronts wheels locked, all steering input is irrelevant, due to the amount of grip washed off by the sliding, ever seen somebody turn a car while the fronts are locked?

      • Anonymous

         “The post just seemed fairly targeted at iRacing for a number of reasons
        and there was a fairly obvious lack of going “This actually happens in
        every sim”

        It was about iRacing, I dunno if I would say ‘targeted’.   When you say ‘obvious lack’ its almost like you are insinuating that Montoya deliberately left out that statement.   I doubt he would have tested it on all sims himself before posting the story.
        I myself wasn’t aware it happened in all sims until people here said so.  Even then I only have their word to go on until I try it myself.

        I honestly don’t believe there was any malicious reasons for posting the news. They should cut him some slack.

        So you disagree about it being a controller issue.  Well I don’t have an opinion on that one way or the other, but again, your explanation as to why is interesting. 

      • Anonymous

        Btw here is LFS. Some glitch like that is probably in every single sim.

      • Anonymous

        Yep. It seems we have established this now.  Erm.. Im not sure,  is it actively being discussed in LFS circles too ?

        But hold on, isn’t it that people in iRacing are discussing it because drivers are exploiting this issue and not necessarily that its a physics bug or incorrect ? Isn’t that the real issue ?

      • Anonymous

        Part of the consensus is that because it works by locking up the front tires, the flatspot is one of the big penalties to using this. Not in iRacing yet, but flatspots would give it a downside. Also the potential of stalling the engine without using your second foot on the clutch.

        There have been a few examples of what are believed to be real world uses, but most don’t have the telemetry to show the drivers feet. Can see cars going around and locking the fronts but not rears, which means front goes straight and rears slow themselves down and car straightens itself a bit.

      • Anonymous

        Wouldnt a flatspot be a small price to pay for having a way of preventing yourself from going into a wall ? 🙂    
        I can’t say I have the will or motivation to scour through 25-ish pages of discussion so its interesting to see some of it summed up here.   

      • Anonymous

        That’s precisely it. Keep it off the wall in exchange for changing front tires. That’s what causes the real drivers to not simply carry on, without that you do the brake+gas save and keep racing.

      • Benjamin Mikhaiel

        Its not unfair on iRacing, because everybody in dwc does it, there is no advantage over another racer to use it.  Its just everybody pushing the sim to the absolute limit. as in real life everybody pushes everything to be the fastest. Ben cornett just hates it because he believes its not the realistic way to drive a car, and from everything I’ve seen, I have to agree with him.

      • Anonymous

        I translate Montoya’s disclaimer to be evidence of iRacing’s preeminence. As in ‘its presence in iRacing is particularly troubling because we expect this from other sims, and nobody drives the others as seriously’. 😉

  • Anonymous

    all i can say is,kindergarten.some adult childes fighting for there right to be a simracer.

  • Boss Player



  • Kevin Brigden

    I don’t understand the problem, ALL of the sims do this and yet they all claim to be the most realistic sim out there. A sim is only as good as our understanding of the physics involved and frankly we still don’t fully understand physics full stop. 

    • Marcel Penzkofer

       You are absolutely right there, EVERY sim has these problems, in iRacing it seems a bit more brutal because you don’t even lose that much speed, whilst in some rF Mods you can’t get in that situation except you really try very hard to do so but lose a lot of speed, whilst others are as dramatic as this in iRacing.

      With “F1 1994 LE” for example you can easily stop your car from spinning by hitting the brakes and center the steering wheel, but the car will slow down brutally.

  • Anonymous

    Didn’t know was linked with pCars. That isn’t right. Would be the same if some of the iMDb guys would work at Universal. Look at SRT guys when Darin was working for Fanatec. After he stopped working for Fanatec al lot less products were “plugged”.

    • Anonymous

       It depends how you define ‘linked’  Montoya runs this site and has done for years.  He recently has been employed at SMS.   

      You just cannot assume from that that VR suddenly becomes a pCARS biased site and works to the degredation of other sims.   Its a ludicrous suggestion that is way too easy to make.   I happen to think Montoya has a bit more credibility than the petty thoughts of what some people may want to think. 

      Personally I find it highly amusing when some people seem to think that SMS have some conspiratorial agenda and is using Montoya and VR as an outlet for that.    I believe if Montoya wasn’t working for SMS, we`d be seeing pretty much the same content on this site as we are now.

      • Anonymous

        As an engineer, I always learned the appearance of a conflict of interest is just as bad as an actual one.

        He stopped doing software reviews which was prudent. I wouldn’t say any bias is due to his job, but I do feel like there is a bias and it being linked to his employer certainly doesn’t make me think there’s any less of a bias.

  • Stuart Whitehead

    In the interests of balance, I look forward to VirtualR making a “news story” out of every sim’s alleged physics flaws.

     Seriously the worst “news story” I’ve ever seen here. I’ll be heading elsewhere for my sim news from now on, as VitualR have sunk to the low standards of the worst tabloid newspapers.

    • Anonymous

      Well its a topic that is being discussed in iRacing circles, so why is it the worst news here ?  
      Would it still be the worst if Montoya worked at McDonalds ?   

      Gotta love the conspiracy theorists. 🙂

      • Stuart Whitehead

        So I take it every physics discussion in every sims forums will now be a news story here then?  

        Where did i mention Montoya or conspiracys?

      • Anonymous

        Well why are you looking for a balance ?   Why does there now need to be a report on every other sims physics flaws ?  
        pCARS gets screenshots, people demand other sims get screenshots.  iRacing has a thread on a physics issue and people demand other sims get threads on their physics issues.
        Who are these people to demand such things ?    They are free to report their own news here for consideration but other than that it’s Montoya’s call what he puts in his own blog.

        Theres no reason to expect this type of story to be a reccurrig theme.  But this wasn’t just about a few guys having a whinge.  It was a bit of a bigger deal.  Big enough, in Montoya’s opinion, to warrant a news story here.  Whether you agree with that or not is another matter.  The topics are here to be discussed and not because of how popular they may or may not be.

      • Stuart Whitehead

        I’m looking for balance as without it this certainly will look biased against iRacing, especially considering it’s been established the so called magic save can be performed in every other sim out there!

         I’m no iRacing fanboy..i’m leaving once my sub is up because i don’t enjoy driving it anymore due to the poor NTM physics and worse FFB with the NTM, so i’m not posting trying to stick up for iRacing, but I do hate sloppy biased articles that look like nothing but a cheap shot at a single  sim.

        Had the article been named “A look at why the “2FMSH works in sim racing” and followed up with a discussion on why this works in all sims then it would have been an interesting debate. The way it’s presented here though just reeks of sticking the knife into iRacing.   That is massively unbalanced  and nothing more than very sloppy reporting.  

         You can’t blame people for accusing Montoya of bias when he indulges in such sloppy reporting practices.   A blind man can see this article look as biased as can be.

      • Anonymous

         Even if it can be performed in every other sim out there, the point is it’s not currently being discussed about every sim out there.  It’s being discussed solely in the iRacing forum about iRacing.  It seems that this ‘exploit’ is an issue for some iRacing people or at the very least something that was felt needed pointing out.

        As for being ‘rocked’,  well I dunno.  How to you quantify that. Call it sensationalising if you must.  But if the goal was to get people reading and reacting, I`d say it’s worked 🙂

        I think you have to ask yourself, a) why would VR stick the knife into iRacing    and   b)  why hasn’t rFactor 2 been targeted if there is some hidden agenda from the big bad pCARS devs?   As it’s in beta, rF2 has a lot more to target than iRacing.  And you can’t even use the ‘it’s a beta’ angle because pCARS is only pre-alpha !.
        It doesn’t make sense that Montoya would deliberately single out one flaw/explout (or whatever you want to call it) in iRacing for the benefit of pCARS (whatever that benefit might be because pCARS is in no way perfect and many people can point out many flaws in it at this stage, me included).     To me, this is just something in peoples minds and they want to run with it.

        I`d like to know HOW pCARS would or even could benefit from such a news article.
        This isn’t even slagging off iRacing imo.  It’s just a topic that’s causing some heated debate right now and Montoya decided to give it some light here. Whats being reported here is not so much the exploit but the fact that it’s being feverishly discussed over at iRacing.
        I find the topic (the physics of it all and why it would or wouldn’t happen) really quite interesting.   I don’t see it as a negative for iRacings credibility in the slightest.  But that’s just my opinion.  

        Also, if it was done with mailice, why make it so obvious, knowing there would be a backlash ?
        Would it be worth it to VR to do something like this ?   I think not.    Who gains from a post deliberately designed to slag off iRacing ?   SMS (only) ?  VR ?  Montoya ?     Think about it.

        I think the reality of posting this news is quite different from the tainted perceptions of a few individials.   The real bias seems to be coming from those who think pCARS/SMS are somehow gaining out of this which I find laughable.  Lets face it, this is what it comes down to.   
        If Montoya didn’t work for SMS and pCARS didn’t exist, those people would just see this as another news report.
        So if you can rationally believe that there was no malice intended, but just a desire to post on a controversial topic thats happening right now, pCARS existing and Montoya being at SMS would make no difference at all.
        I think some people just can’t see past those issues and just expect there always to be a hidden agendas.   This is not the first time Montoya has been accused of bias and that has only been happening since he has been at pCARS.   Funny that innit ?

        So what are we looking at here ?  Something like this ?

        SMS:  Hey have you seen this iRacing topic about a ‘magic save’ exploit
        Montoya: Nope, whats that about ?
        SMS:  Seems in iRacing you can brake and throttle at the same time and save almost any slide, LOL !!
        Montoya:  wow.
        SMS:  Do us a favour,  post it as news on your site and maybe some iRacing people will get disillusioned with it and say “Right I’m off to pCARS”   We might get more members out of it !
        Montoya:  You think ? 
        SMS:  Come on it`ll be good for us.  This thing runs over 20 pages on their forums, we can only gain from this.  Cos people will suddenly change their opinion of iRacing when they read that and like us and pCARS instead.
        Montoya:  oh in that case, consider it posted
        SMS:  Thanks man.  There’ll be a little bonus in your pay cheque this month

        Really ??  I mean some people actually believe something like this would happen !!

        So why iRacing, why now ?  Why has nothing like this happened when Shift 1/2 were in devlopment, or GTR2 or GTR or GTL or GTR Mod ?     Suddenly now its the little guy trying to take down the big iRacing guys ?   As IF iRacing people would flock over to pCARS as the alternative.  

        Sorry but I don’t see any logic at all in the bias argument.  None.
        Flogging a dead horse.

      • Anonymous

        I don’t think there is any harm in asking. Montoya obviously gets the final call, but if we aren’t happy with his coverage choices I think it’s only fair we tell him that before we stop reading the site because it no longer fits our interests.

        Personally, I was quite disappointed there wasn’t any mention of the V8SC or Mustang getting the NTM. They were pretty much the two cars that had been most awaiting it and suffered most under the OTM. Not a peep about those release notes which everyone at iRacing agreed were a Big Effing Deal, yet we did get a post about a relatively minimal rF2 beta update.

        Whatever, I’m not going to have a fit and tell Montoya how to run his website. However, if I perceive the coverage to continue skewed like I think it is, I will probably stop visiting. No biggie, just my opinion.

      • Anonymous

        I think the better question is why there is such a big push against people being ‘unconstructive’ in their criticism of pCARS, yet even the given name for this glitch is unconstructive to start off the ‘discussion’ and it is somewhat accepted. Neither sim is ‘done’, according to devs, interesting how they are treated differently. One is a troll, the other is a controversy.

        Not that any of it is Montoya’s fault or under his control, just interesting observation of our commenter community.

      • Anonymous

        It might be a better question but I wouldn’t want to evade my questions.

        This has all blown up because of where Montoya is working.  This big hoo-hah gets made of how its an anti-iRacing deal and must be SMS pulling the strings in the background.   Did SMS start the topic in the iRacing forum ?  Were they behind that ?    

        The big push you refer to isn’t exclusive to pCARS.  Actually I’m not sure what you’re referring to really.  But I do know that most of us prefer consructive comments over non-constructive ones, regardless of the topic.  pCARS isnt actively singled out but only appears so because that’s where all the action happens.

        As for the name of the glitch,  well I don’t think it was made up here.  That seems to have originated from the iRacing forums. 
        Neither may be ‘done’ but one is clearly in pre-alpha stage and the other is firmly established now and in full use with cash prizes up for grabs in races using content that each member pays for as well as a paid subscription.   So they have a right to question and debate this issue imo.
        That it’s here too is just another place to discuss it.    Instead it’s been made out to be a conspiracy against iRacing.  It’s no more a conspiracy against iRacing here than it is in the iRacing forum itself.

      • Anonymous

        Not accusing Montoya at all, just an interesting community dynamic. Everyone jumps on the pCARS critiques with ‘it is beta’. Don’t see it with Race or rFactor, for example.

        As for the name, my point was the iRacing member who gave it the 2FMSH name wasn’t particularly being productive with the name, yet it isn’t met with the same response of ‘hey, let’s not make unproductive complaints’. Nothing to do with Montoya, but the sim racing community in general.

        I think the fact that it is so competitive and high stakes at iRacing that it gets taken more seriously. Not a bad thing, per se, but it does mean lots of aggressive complaints. Same thing on the iRacing forums themselves as it is here, so clearly it isn’t a VR or Montoya thing.

      • Anonymous

        I dont think this has anything to do with where Montoya works, thats good for him its also great that someone clearly passionate about simracing has a job in something he loves, best of luck to him too! I believe a lot of people hear just see this post as an anti-iracing news thread, there has been other Iracing news such as the updated NTM on the V8 and Mustang which i believe warrants a news bulletin but that hasn’t been written about…

      • Anonymous

        I think a lot of people see it as anti-iRacing because of where he works.  It’s been blatantly stated more than once.

        I don’t think it is anti-iRacing. To me it’s an interesting observation and some really interesting physics discussion has come of it.

  • Anonymous

    Overall, iRacing is notorious for people whining about any little perceived unfairness. There was a thread about a year ago about shifting macros. Not at all limited to iRacing, let alone sim racing, yet twenty some pages of people complaining about people mapping their downshift lever to clutch as well so they could apply throttle on braking without heel toe.

    We drive sims, there’s two ways to think of it. Either you can complain that a certain driving technique is more/less effective than reality, or you can push the car to its limits whatever they are whether the same as it ‘should be’ or not.

    • Anonymous

      Ach, if we’d known then, we could have posted on it here 🙂    hehe.

      Sneaky trick though.  Sounds like they read  “The school of Motor Racing by Red Bull Racing”.  🙂

      But yeah it just goes to show, some people really do take this kind of thing with all seriousness.
      Oh well… off to donate some money to starving kids in Africa….

    • Marco Conti

      I remember the “Macro” controversy. There was a reason why it happened on iracing and why it was unique to the iracing service and not other sims.
      While most of the other sims have the ability to use Autoclutch or not, iRacing is the only one among the major Sims that actively punishes autoclutch users by slowing down lap times. I personally never really saw much difference but apparently it is large enough with some cars to make a difference. 
      So in iracing using no autoclutch is theoretically faster than using it. What the Macros do is effectively to work as an external autoclutch, bypassing iracing built in penalty.

      • Anonymous

         I have to admit, I find this fascinating.

      • Anonymous

        Actually, the macro whining is part of why the autoclutch penalty has been made minimal. Still a tad slower, but nowhere like it used to be.

  • MrNone

    finally a iRacing news bringing more posts then pCARS :p

  • Anonymous


    Well, i dont agree,  but then again..

    you would not have the slightest idea why i guess… your reply clearly shows how brilliant you are, and i would be wrong to expect an intelligent answer or discussion from you.

    Have a nice life.

    • sargentjack86

      I don’t want to have an intelligent discussion with you. You don’t seem like a very nice person to be honest and I certainly don’t value your opinion enough to listen to it in a reasonable way.

      Your reply clearly shows how mature and grown up you are trying to be. How dull and boring.

      I am only here to tell you how you have been ripped off playing an arcade piece of crap. If you don’t like hearing the truth I suggest you avoid reading my replies from now on.

      Kindly keep your moral high ground and shove it where the sun don’t shine.

      • Anonymous

         “I am only here to tell you how you have been ripped off playing an arcade piece of crap. If you don’t like hearing the truth ……..”

        Here’s the thing though,  he may not feel like he has been ripped off, that it’s arcade or a piece of crap.  He’s probably enjoying it. So in that regard, it’s only YOUR truth and not necessarily THE truth.
        What you’re expression is your opinion, not his.  

        That’s the intelligent way to look at it.

  • Nathan Robinson

    I’ve been coming here for quite a few years now to read my sim racing news and I will say I was disappointed by the article at first. Add to that the fact that other sites see to be keeping a daily stream of sim news and this place is just dumping a lot of stuff on one day now. This used to be the first place I came for news because you guys were always on top of it. A lot of the news in the last 2 months or so though is a little behind and i’d say 50 percent I already knew about when I read it here. Now this has nothing to do with this article, so I’ll stop there.

    About the Iracing news item, like I said, I was a little disappointed when I read it, but then I got to thinking. Probably not a great idea but I went ahead with it anyway 😛 Iracing is selling itself as a finished product, with full upgradability. So they are deserving in this negative criticism. People are spending a lot of money at Iracing and to demand the best isn’t out of the question. I think it’s good to get this out there in public.

    It doesnt even compare to pcars though or any of this conspiracy, all you guys with nothing better to do, say it is. We’ve beat this over and over, but pcars hasn’t defined itself as a finished product. Alpha, beta, delta, fox trot, roger niner, or whatever the hell state it’s in, it still isnt defined as a finished product so any criticism seems like a waste of time. Take mr. jackermeir, sorry thomas for spelling,  he has sent out all these csw’s to be beta tested by people. I dont think they are allowed to talk about it until he’s ready to ship the final product. So, if someone was to get on fanatec forum and start saying the wheel is crap (which we all know it wont be) fanatec would want to censor that too because it’s still under development and is pointless to say bad things about. When pcars comes out next year and we all get the the chance to try it (or not) than it would useful to post articles about it. Plus, even if pcars bombs like hell for sim racers, it’s still only 50 bucks out of your pocket and not the hundreds i’ve put into iracing.

    • Anonymous

      When did iRacing say they were a finished product? Their thing has always been they’re never ‘done’.

      • Nathan Robinson

        Maybe finished is the wrong term for iracing but we certainly arent dumping all that money into a beta. Iracing has developed to a point where they can sell it as a product. Much like anything else in life, you learn as time goes on, and what once was a finished product now looks obsolete to a newer product that was made better, hence iracing 2.0. Is anything in this world ever complete then? Or are we constantly beta testing everything to improve upon it all.

      • Anonymous

        Depends on your perspective, but iRacing certainly isn’t like your standard retail softare with a release date, then a few updates before you wait for the sequel to buy it again. Just need to go into it with the right expectations, I pay for the online features of iRacing, I wouldn’t subscribe for just the physics.

        I don’t think price is the determinant either of whether something is a beta or not. There are people who have put far more money into pCARS than anyone other than John W Henry have put into iRacing 😉

      • Nathan Robinson

        The big spenders in pcars are investors looking for a return. It doesnt even compare. Now dont get me wrong, i love iracing and its all i drive these days but the only return i get for my money is racing. If you think iracing is in beta form than youve lost your marbles. Its subscription based like cell phones and magazines, but for the extreme realism that iracing touts it deserves to have this issue in the open.

      • Anonymous

        are you telling me I’ve spent over 900USD with iRacing and I shouldn’t expect the best possible sim?

      • Anonymous

        Expecting it and getting it is two different things.

      • sargentjack86

        If you really have spent that amount of money on what amounts to a sparkling turd I suggest you seek a mental evaluation. I know a much better way to waste that kind of money…………..there is a bridge just down the road………just throw your money off it.

  • Matt Orr

    So, a thread gets several pages, therefore it must be shared. Where was the coverage of Macros, Q Circles and Pay2Paint? Hell, Pay2Paint had a bigger effect on anything to me than any of the other 3.

    You cite it’s important because of big money, when in reality 2FMSH will only save your ass and slow it down at the same time. Not to mention it’s the same for everyone.

    Regardless of what Montoya does for a job, it’s still something that should have been avoided. Going here only brings issues, and makes you look completely biased for not doing the exact same for every other sim out there that has the same flaws.

    Especially considering Ian Bell suspiciously shows up on the iRacing forums right when the NTM was released, only to brag about how good their tire model is.

    • Anonymous

      Agreed, Q circles was a way bigger glitch.

  • Skara Koska

    iRenting…what else?

  • Anonymous

    Let’s go to 200 comment guys. Keep it going 😀

    • Anonymous

      OK we made it.  Drinks are on you ! 🙂

      • Rhys Gardiner

        I wonder, can we get to 300?

    • StarFoXySxv550

      Am I too late to post “1st”?

  • Anonymous

    well i just joined iracing again, after 2 year break. I joined because i wanted to take part in the inside sim racing special event, later this month. 

    i also joined out of curiosity, to see if its improved in any way. 
    I can safely say it hasn’t – save your money and just wait for rfactor 2 to grow + asseto corsa. 

    the feedback is nothing like as good as rf2 (which is saying a lot, since rf2 feedback still has many problems with it). the handling is exactly the same as when I first tried iracing, all those years ago, when it first went online – nothing has changed in terms of the way you have to set the car up to go faster, and the core handling hasn’t changed in any way. 

    the graphics and sounds are still terrible. its a real shame. iracing user interface+online support + RF2 or asseto corsa graphics/mod capability/ffb would be the best thing ever. Shame it’ll never happen. 

    • Anonymous

      You’re right mate, the graphics in iRacing are shite.  Check this video out:

      You can actually tell which shots are real and which are in game . . . epic fail.

      Compare that rubbish to this comparison of RFactor 1 Vs. RFactor 2:

      The difference between the two is staggering . . . I especially like the new awesome glow of the brake lights off the aspalt on a dry track in the middle of the day . . . how have they captured reality so perfectly!

      • Skara Koska


    • Anonymous

      You’re also right on the handling. Infact the NTM drives exactly the same like the OTM:

      Or just try the V8….epic fail*2.

    • Anonymous

      iracing will be switching over to a new DX11 graphics engine in the future,, i’m not sure if it was reported here on virtualR, it was reported on Bsim racings website.

    • Anonymous

      Which car hasn’t changed in handling? Unless it’s still on the OTM, you can’t possibly be serious. The old drift-to-go-fast days are long gone.

      I will say iRacing isn’t going to be for everyone, but saying handling hasn’t changed at all is so far wrong I can only assume you’re lying just to make a point.

    • Swordand Keyboard

       lol iracing  is better and if you have the money it is worth it. many would pay iracing just not to deal with rf crappy ui.  I can understand if you said try out gt3 or one of the newer games coming out that has polished interface and look.

      even the games made from rf1/ gmotor I would recommended 1st, because there fine tuned for the average buyer.

  • Anonymous

    universal 2FMSH is here for you! 

    • Anonymous

      Maybe someone can make it a “news”. Thx for sharing 😉

      • Anonymous

         He just did.   But at this stage it’s hardly news.  It’s olds.

      • Anonymous

        We need a new headline:
        “iRacers complain about stuff more than everyone else, details at 11”

        Not even that is a surprise, been that way ever since I’ve been there.

      • Anonymous

         Well there is that 🙂   But we`d have to get SMS’s approval before making that change, LOL.

      • Anonymous

        I don’t know how much widely, but you can do that from 14 years ago in any sim… There are examples in RL and some already were posted 🙂 

        It was discussed over at iR about iR just because we are the largest sim community.
        Not like other sims with 1000000 semiofficial forums where the community is fragmented. 😉 So every thread with something interesting became enormus.
        For example the thread about pCars is 62 pages, and the one about Assetto Corsa is 45!

      • Anonymous

        The pCARS thread is 62 pages on the iR forums, why else do you think Montoya reports so much on it here? 😉

    • Undastir Pushin

      Oh boy, this really should be added to the main article, and update the title to ALL Sims, i mean really, this unbias news site should want to update the story with correct info right?

      I mean, yes this is still true “exploit in the online racing simulation’s physics simulation” but why is it only being reported for iRacing, now that we have this video.

      Thanks for this latest breaking news peicheck, but im sure with pCARS being part of this video it will not get added to the list of sims that have this flaw.

      • Anonymous

        Yep, as soon as pCARS was added, there was no way SMS was going to let Montoya add this to the headline.   I mean really !

        You’ve been told numerous times why it was only reported for iRacing.  Don’t you read ?

    • Anonymous

      Not suprising. This article is. It isn’t news looks like Montoya dug this up for other reasons I think.

    • Anonymous

      Can you do it beyond 45 degrees like the iRacing video? He seems to hit about 70 degrees at one point.
      Your video shows up to about 20-30 degrees.

    • Tomas Beha

      iRacing vs. rf2 is interresting, HUGE difference in the value of the “exploit”

  • Anonymous

    Just a small comment to the person(s) who are flagging Montoya’s and my posts.   (Naming no names).

    What are you thinking ?  That we will delete or remove our own posts ?   All that flagging does is give the admins the option to approve or delete it.    Neither will ever happen so you’re wasting your time.

  • Neil Hind

    Brilliant, VR is actually in the pocket of SMS, how downright embarrassing, seriously F1 Racer take off your blinkers, they are pretty huge even by sim racing standards.

    • Anonymous

       The way you go on, you would think this iRacing exploit started here and was something made up by SMS.   Jeezus. 

      iRacing members started this and the news of it came here.  Simple as that.   You can read into it whatever you want.   WTF has SMS got to do with it ?    I`ll bet you believe in that little ‘script’ I wrote further down the page don’t you ?   To you that would be seen as a documentary.

      God help if the iRacing servers ever go down.  SMS will get the blame for that too.

      • Stuart Whitehead

        lol, now you’re at it. “iRacing exploit” indeed!  Talk about sensationalist     Try “sim racing phenomenon”  for a more reasonable description.

        Your multiple long responses trying to defend this “story” are a joke.  You seem incapable of stepping back and looking at this from the outside.

         I didn’t know who Montoya worked for. I hadn’t read any other comments.  I just logged on here one day, looked at the story and instantly came to the conclusion that this was a sloppy piece of tabloid style journalism that served very little purpose other than to have a dig at iRacing.

        I’m not saying that’s how you guys wanted it to appear. I’m not claiming any sort of conspiracy. I’m not saying the topic of the 2FMSH isn’t one worth covering, far from it.  All i’m saying is look at the story once more with neutral eyes and tell me it isn’t poorly presented, sensationalised and looking like a really low blow against iRacing.   If you are so blind to see that’s how it appears then i would suggest you shouldn’t be working on a sim racing news site. 

      • Neil Hind

        And how often do i visit the site, how often do i click on your links and advertising banners, how often do i post links to news stories on this site elsewhere. You’ve no idea from the looks of it. 

        What if 90% of your readership buggered off overnight , would you even have a clue ?

        A news site is supposed to be impartial because once its not, its comment not news and should be clear thats the case. At least thats the UK view, perhaps its different elsewhere in the world.

        Virtual PCars would be a better site name if your other stories continue in this vein. At least people would know what to expect.

  • Neil Hind

    Brilliant, VR is actually in the pocket of SMS, how downright embarrassing, seriously F1 Racer take off your blinkers, they are pretty huge even by sim racing standards.

  • Skytrill .

    I guess it’s now safe to say there was a controversy indeed..

    • Anonymous

       LOL 🙂

  • Ken Coughlin

    Journalism fail. If it happens on all sims why single out one of them…. Especially when you’re on the payroll of a compeditor. No justification for that.

    • Firefox

      Not a fail.

      It has been a big discussion in the iRacing forums and it is from there.If it had been a discussion in another official simracing game forum, we would have seen it here too.

    • Anonymous

      OK so lets say a guy buys a Ferrari, then goes out and wrecks it.  Suddenly it becomes a talking point on a Ferrari website.  Page after page after page discussing why he crashed, what caused it, what a shame it was etc etc..  
      Then another website that also has an interest in Ferrari news (amongst other exotic cars), posts about the same story.  Why ?  Because it’s current news and a hot topic on that Ferrari website.
      Are we to expect people to say “Journalism fail.  Why single out this crash if you can crash any make of car ?”.   Reason.. because it’s news !   That particular Ferrari story was active and relevant news.
      You really need me to draw pictures ?

      Ah but wait….then we find out that the owner of the other website that posted the news after the original one does work for Lamborghini as his day job.   So now we all must assume its a conspiracy ?  He must have posted it to degrade Ferrari !   Must be !!    
      How dare he post that news even though he runs an exotic car new website that covers all exotic cars.  

      Oh the humanity !

      You drama queens make me laugh 🙂

      • Ken Coughlin

        Just out of interest why are you replying to every single negative comment against this site? It has been discussed on the iRacing website yes. But what sim forum doesn’t have topics discussing inaccurate car physics? They aren’t being singled out. It’s particularly crap posting about this issue since it’s the same on most other sims including the beloved pCars and yet that is not even mentioned here other than a vague comment about no sims being perfect.

        I’ve heard pCars has a lot of physics complaints on the forums but I know this website wouldn’t report it.

      • Anonymous

        I’m a moderator Ken. Responding to negative comments against this site kinda go with the territory.  It’s either that or just delete the posts altogether for posting outside of acceptable guidelines. There’s not many places where people get away with accusing the forum admins of things like we see here and in pCARS threads.  You’d be out on your arse before you finished the sentence on some of the places I’ve been to with no questions asked.  
        So I guess I’m a bit of a softie really 🙂   I don’t mind a bit of heated debate. I’m well used to it.

        Moderating on my own, because its pretty much just me, kinda ends up making me look like the big bad guy I know, but then again I’m not doing this to win any popularity contests.  Maybe I should have stuck to just rendering and wotnot eh ? 
        Montoya gives up his free time to make this site possible,  I spend more time here than I should or would, being the mod and all that VR gets is abuse and crap because of one thread and people just question whether it should be posted here or not.  Mountain out of a molehill imo.  
        I wonder whether its worth it really.  Some people don’t deserve this place. 
        Nothing better to do than bitch and whinge and moan and criticise.   People who need to hang their head out of the window once in a while and see some real problems going on in the world instead of debating over a driving trick in a sim that some people have got their knickers in a twist about as if it’s the end of the world.

        I have no vested interest in iRacing.  I’m a member but I’m barely active there.  But I’ve got nothing against it though.  It’s not my cup of tea but I appreciate what they’ve done with it and that it has real world drivers taking part against sim racers.  How cool is that ?

        Like Montoya, because I’m a moderator, I’ve been accused of bias when in fact if I’m biased anywhere its for rFactor 1 and RACE07.  They are the racing sims I use 95% of the time.  rFactor because I appreciate the talent that the community has to make it what it is and I enjoy that mods they make (and it’s where the best F1 stuff is).  RACE07 because I like the feel of it and the way most of the cars drive.
        The other 5% is GSC (great sim) and netkar pro.   pCARS and rF2 I barely touch.   My rF2 usage will obviously go up as the mods come out but right now it is what it is. My pCARS usage may go up as the title comes together and hopefully the new tyre model makes a difference to how it is now.
        Despite that I’m putting up with accusations that I’m completely pCARS biased (when I’ve only really managed to play it properly 2 weeks ago when my replacement wheel arrived).  Before then I couldn’t get it to steer right to save my life and my FFB was naff.  But some people think they know what they’re on about and they don’t.  They think they know Montoyas’ motives for posting this thread and the trend lately is to assume SMS is behind everything.  They think they know what I like or don’t.   Too many assumptions and they make up whatever suits their own argument.

        Probably not the answer you were expecting or even looking for but there ya go.  I guess it just all came out.    Hope the answer is in there somewhere.

      • Anonymous

        As a moderator you shouldn’t even participate in the debate here. You are responsible for guiding the content and comments in the way the rules dictate. Now you have the power too remove or silence people in a discussion wich you also participate. ÍDoesn’ that make you feel a bit awkward? The comment above you state that you are a softie but if you want you can change the way you act against negative comments. Sounds a bit like a communist or totalitarian regime or something. I think you are out of line here F1. If I were owner of this site I would have fired you for this.

      • Anonymous

         Let me explain something to you Samuel.   As a moderator I am also a member here.  That means I can participate as much as anyone here.   The moderator part of me is only here for controlling stuff that breaks posting rules etc.
        I will not be censored from posting just because I am a mod.   I would rather not me a mod and post than be one and not post.     I keep myself on a leash right now but if I was posting without being a mod, and there was no moderation here you’d see how I really am when responding to trolls.  Trust me, you want me on this leash.

        Having the power to remove or silence people doesn’t mean it happens.  Break the rules and yeah, you might have the moderator spring into action.   Otherwise, discuss what the hell you want.  I don’t really care.   You want to get all bitter and twisted over an article, go knock yourself out.  If I want to dive in and respond, I will.     It’s not awkward for me really because I don’t work how you`d like to think I do.     Some people get away with a lot more than they should sometimes.  If this was a communist or totalitarian regime, the amount of comments in here would be less than half what it is.

        So where am I out of line ?    If you think I should be ‘fired’ please feel free to voice your concern to Montoya.   If he agrees, then I won’t resist it.

      • Anonymous

        Samuel you are right. f1racer cant help himself, but to argue with everyone, which is why he was the most unsuitable mod choice possible. Plus he’s nuts anyway.

      • Ken Coughlin

        “Responding to negative comments against this site kinda go with the territory. It’s either that or just delete the posts altogether for posting outside of acceptable guidelines.”

        Why does responding to negative comments go with the territory? I’ve never thought of it as part of the moderators job to debate as obsessively as you do with people who have objections. It’s really strange.

        I also don’t know why you felt the need to bring up deleting the posts altogether. Why would you do that? If people think this place is biased why would you even raise the subject of deleting them?

      • Anonymous

         You’ve twisted the issue here.   The phrase you originally used sas “negative comments AGAINST THIS SITE”, not just negative comments.   Thats a big difference.
        I was referring to responding to negative comments against this site.  

        As for debating, I am as free as anyone to do this.

        I brought up deleting posts because it was relevant to my reply.
        I can raise the subject because I know this place isn’t biased and I don’t construct my comments around the beliefes of a few that think otherwise.  I’m not going to censor myself just because a few have chosen to think the worst of people.

        You think you can come here and just say anything or insult anyone your want and it should be ok ?   Well I don’t.  And if people step over he line too much, they run the risk of having their post removed because others don’t want to come here to read crap like that.

        Is it my opinions that people hate me for or the fact that I have that opinion and am the moderator ?   
        Its not like I go around deleting posts that I just don’t like.  Look at all the crap that just got posted today about me.   I could easily delete that if I was biased as some people think, but they have things all wrong.  I`d much prefer to debate with them.   You gotta be able to take what you give out.

  • Ranger

    The single-seater high downforce cars have AWEFUL physics in all sims in general. The question would be if this works with all cars.

  • Anonymous

    I think the unwillingness of Montoya to amend this article says a lot more about his bias than the original post.

    We’ve had two of the greats (Niels and Stefano) weigh in on the topic, basically saying that there is nothing odd about the effect at all.  We’ve also seen videos showing that all sims model this behaviour.

    Montoya, you can say goodbye to your credibility unless you make some effort to balance this article.

    • Anonymous

      Well, we had stefano explain both why it happens in every sim (forward brake bias locking front tires), and the unique issue in iRacing (works even with all 4 wheels locked).

    • Anonymous

      Hehe, you gotta love stuff like this.   People getting all worked up over a delusion. Just like religion I suppose. 🙂    I wonder if the people whinging about bias and balance etc would be the same ones demanding the right to free speech or at least assuming they have that right.

      Ok so it happens in all sims.   Show me the big discussion about it happening in rFactor on the rFactor forums, show me the big discussion about it happening in LFS on the LFS forums, show me the big discussion about it happening in pCARS on the pCARS forums, show me the big discussion about it happening in netKar on the netKar forums, yada yada yada..

      Are you really unable to grasp that it only got posted here because it was a hot topic in the iRacing forums about iRacing ? The iRacers probably don’t give a toss that it happens in LFS and rFactor etc.  Totally beside the point.  They are discussing it happening in THEIR sim, iRacing.  And that is why it’s reported here in the same vain.
      You’re coming at this from totally the wrong angle, like a few others have done. 

      Honestly it’s like talking to a wall. 🙂

      Why not pop over to iRacing and tell them to stop whinging about it because it happens in all sims ?   They won’t care about it happening in other sims because its iRacing they are concerned about.

      The only thing that needs amending in the article is the number of pages the discussion now runs to.  If you want someone to blame for the topic cropping up, go to the source over at iRacing !  Go and have a bitch there and tell them they’re biased too.  They must be, its the same topic.

      • Anonymous

        Don’t reply to a post and then ban the person so they cannot reply mate . . . well here it is:

        I’m happy for this to be discussed on the iRacing forum.  All members can follow along and see all sides of the discussion.

        Unfortunately not all of your readers are iRacing members, so they do not have access to the iRacing forum.  All they read is “ – Magic Save Exploit Causes Controversy”

        That is the problem I have with this article.

  • Anonymous

    Why hasn’t Montoya posted about the Shift 2 handling of pCARS?

    Because Ian Bell banned everyone from the forums before the thread could reach 20 pages 😉


  • Matt Orr

    This thread is gold.

    It’s so great to see the usual iRacing smashers out in force like usual, then the half with their heads screwed on straight who realize this happens in every sim destroying VirtualR for being blatantly biased on this story, then the lols that are had from reading F1_Racer’s posts. I’m sure seeing how I said “blatantly biased” he will now respond with another one that will make me chuckle.

    I say we make it a regular occurrence around here. Seeing how this has been so popular, how about a news item about the news item.

    • Undastir Pushin

      I guess it makes for a good business move to try and toss the sim with the most people racing it actively under the bus, I mean look how many people have come to say something. They are getting the hits, while also posting more stuff about their sim. F1_Racer has the power here, and can dictate what is said and what isn’t still not sure why he has to post on every comment with his own thoughts, unless he is speaking for virtualR in that case wow thats even worse for this pCARS news site. But when your greatest position in life is a comment mod on virtualR, I can see how you would take that as serious as possible. Ok that was probably out of line, im sure he has done more in life than just be king of a message board system. Owell its their own site, Sim Raceway did the same thing with another news site that pCARS investors are doing with this one, its going to happen all over, money talks, just hope iRacing stays away from posting ads here anymore, I wonder if thats why less news makes it way here? Well thats all I have to say about that, back to flagging F1_Racer’s own posts

      • Anonymous

        Owell its their own site, Sim Raceway did the same thing with another news site that pCARS investors are doing with this one,”
        SMS does not own this site…

        God this sim racing scene is full of more bulls**t drama, fighting and rumour spreading than a high school.

      • Undastir Pushin

        A simple fix by this so called news site would solve a lot of issues with this. Now im off to post with my real name over at iRacing, so F1_Racer can watch me there too. Sure

      • Anonymous

        Don’t flatter yourself.

        Stop abusing the flagging system.  I`ll tell you this one time only.

      • Anonymous

        I don’t speak ‘for’ VirtualR, whatever that means.  I will moderate for it though.
        I have my own mind to speak thankyouverymuch.

        Interesting how you say I have the power to dictate what is and isn’t said.  Is that what you think ?   Heh. 
        If it was purely down to me to decide what is said here, if it was my blog, a lot of the posts in this thread would be gone and you could cry bias all you want but there would be a clean-up.
        When you post and you target people like this, it’s trolling.  Trolling isn’t acceptable here. This time you’re targeting me but thats fine, I can handle it.  So to avoid people like you crying because you weren’t allowed to troll on an admin or moderator,  I let you run with it.
        But you will only go so far. 

        Anyway, Montoya has the power here.   I’m just here more often cos I love you guys so much that the highlight of my day is talking to all my sim-racing buddies and enjoying some friendly chit-chat.
        Pity that can’t happen because people like you prefer to not be friendly and would rather have a go at people because you think your precious iRacing sim has been threatened in some way by an article here.  
        Now I know you’re an iRacer because I`ve see your posts under your real name in the iRacing thread.  So clearly your bias is there.  That’s cool but it does explain the contents of your posts here.   
        Meh, you have no idea what my greatest position in life is.    I’m only here because amazingly, like you, sim-racing is a hobby of mine (along with photography, astronomy, oh and that 3D thingy that I do.)    It’s a shame the community can’t be a little friendlier within itself instead of always trying to see the worst in people.

        Oh well, I guess if we all had the same opinions, the world would be an infinitely boring place.
        So there is a plus side 🙂

    • Anonymous

       Hey Matt !

      Q:How did Michael Jackson pick his nose?

      A: From a catalogue.

      Hope that made ya chuckle 🙂

  • Anonymous

    You say that you’re not censoring posts, but your associated facebook story seem to contradict this

    • Anonymous

       Who are you referring to ?  I don’t have an ‘associated Facebook story’.

      • Anonymous has a facebook account, and on its wall is a post advertising this story.  One of the comments for this story mentions that they had to post there because they were blocked from posting here.

        I’m curious as to why they were banned?

      • Anonymous

        Oh I see.

        Well not that it’s anyones business why someone may have been temporaraily banned, but if that ever happens it’s because they broke the rules of acceptable behaviour, probably on more that one occasion.

        I’m done playing here.  There are rules of behaviour in places like this and if people can’t stick to them then they take an involuntary vacation.     Don’t like it ?  Behave.   Simple.
        If poeple behaved themselves I`d never have to exercise myself as a moderator.   That would be nice wouldn’t it ?  

        Banning has nothing to do with bias btw.  As far as I’m concerned the same rules apply to everyone.  There aren’t different rules for iRacing fans than pCARS fans or whatever.     I don’t discriminate.  
        You troll, you insult or bully people, you use excessive foul language or you flamebait…    you get my attention, regardless of topic.

        If you want to have a negative opinion on something, go ahead by all means,  Enjoy your debate.   Just do it within the posting rules.
        Heated debates can be fascinating and sometimes very interesting to read, but it’s all too easy for people to degrade it into a mud slinging match and thats usually where people forget they are talking to other human beings and just go for it.  

        Despite some trending opinions to the contrary I think I’m pretty objective.   I’ve had people slag me off in a post, then I read another post of theirs that I agree with and I will ‘like’ it.  You’ve got to work very hard to make me have a grudge on you.  
        In fact you’ll probably have to work too hard and find youself on vacation before you manage it, hehe 

      • Anonymous

        Don’t want to flame, just think he had an interesting point and would like to hear your side on it.  This is from the facebook post:

        Since you’ve blocked me from posting on your website, I’m post here:

        I’m happy for this to be discussed on the iRacing forum. All members can follow along and see all sides of the discussion.

        Unfortunately not all of your readers are iRacing members, so they do not have access to the iRacing forum. All they read is “ – Magic Save Exploit Causes Controversy”

        That is the problem I have with this article.

        You disagree with this comment?

      • Anonymous

         I’m not sure what you want me to say.  I neither agree or disagree with it.   There’s nothing there for me to form an opinion on.

        I can’t help it if he has a problem with the article.  His problem, more accurately, is he has a problem with the article being on VR because he thinks it was posted in order to slag iRacing off in some way.   I don’t think it was.

      • Anonymous

        You aren’t really quit that diplomatic are you F1? From the beginning of this topic you have a aggressive way of making your point. Thinking other people are wrong too accuse from being a SMS blog is your right. But you could be more symphathetic towards the people who fair or not feel dissapointed in some way. Maybe your not agreeing with thier point of view at least you could try to understand. Maybe it’s age I don’t know how old your are. The “take it or leave it” attitude isn’t gonna contribute anything too the debate and even is a bit childish. You could accomplish more with a more grown up and putting it in perspective way of participating the debate. 

      • Anonymous


        I’m hardly the only one here who needs to be told how to post in a better way.  I don’t respond like that for no reason.

      • Anonymous

        I agree if anyone works at getting banned from something put your energy into getting banned from hotels for having parties and tearing out the walls I have about 20 to my credit. It’s a lot more fun.

  • Anonymous

    On pCARS forum…. LOL   Use the 2FSMH because you can improve your lap times…

    “As reported here…es-controversy, With video evidence of the iRacing game. Apparantly you can slam your vehicle into corners at unrealistic speeds and then magically recover any slide by putting the brakes and gas on full, at the same time! Which would give you a big advantage in lap times. Every wonder why your so slow at Sim racing? Maybe this is why.  ”   

    “A giant exploit in iRacing has been disclosed that allows any car to auto-magically recover from any spin. Many users have been using it to get unrealistic lap times. It also seems to apply to the ever-so-common throttle-braking everyone does. ”

    Use the 2FSMH because you can improve your lap times…lol

    • Stuart Whitehead

      Does it not mention that you can do it their “sim” (and i use the word loosely) as well?

      The “big advantage in lap times” comment  is hilarious! 

      • Anonymous

         Looks like someone hasn’t understood the ‘exploit’ properly.   Has anyone tried a normal laptime versus as laptime with this technique ?   Beats me how a slower laptime can be called unrealistic 🙂

      • Undastir Pushin

        Serious question, do you even understand what this is about? I’m trying to figure out what you just posted. Your asking if anyone has tried this and compared it to a normal lap time, which makes me think you are far more clueless on this entire topic than I had once thought. This has NOTHING to do with lap times or speed.

        Get those feet up on the pedals and start going backwards. I’ll see how you explain this.

      • Stuart Whitehead

        What are you going on about now?

        Where did i mention the word exploit?   I was laughing at this absurd comment “Apparantly you can slam your vehicle into corners at unrealistic speeds and then magically recover any slide by putting the brakes and gas on full, at the same time! Which would give you a big advantage in lap times.”

      • spamsac

        I think you’ve misunderstood. F1Racer_RR is agreeing with you; he is saying who ever wrote the quoted text hasn’t understood what is happening, as doing this technique would ultimately be a slower lap time, yet the quoted text implies lap times set using this are unrealistic.

        His point is that a lap set using this would be slower than an optimum lap time, therefore how can it be unrealistic?

  • Anonymous

    wrong post (edit) delete pls 😉

  • Anonymous

    Reading all of this, it makes clear to me how much i miss the old Racing Sim Central.Forum [RSC]
    Those days it created joy and friendship using our hobby.

    These days discussions are more about ego and internet heroism.

    Lets hope we can get what we call the Sim Racing community to better standards in the future.

    • Ricoo

       I don’t remember having seen any friendship here… too many anonymous people, coming from too many different sim. I hope too that the sim racing community will change but I doubt.

  • Dani .

    Sims have become a Soap Opera. This is stupid.

    I miss old times when the simracing was mostly fullfilled by “gentelman drivers”. 
    Cooperative and gentle out the racing itself, and honorable and competitive in track.

  • MrNone

    Can we have a news about the project CARS unrealistc setups with driving aids too ? 🙂

    • Anonymous

      Yeah, I heard about that here in relation to the laptime competition. How big is the WMD forum thread? 😉

      • MrNone

        i think was ignored by the devs :p

  • Anonymous

    F1racer as expected is the most hilarious ‘moderator’ ever. Arguing with everyone who disagrees with his opinion. On most other respectable sites, he would be considered a troll, but here he’s a moderator.What do you expect from Petros Mak’s best mate? lol

     Montoya I’m sure you can do better than this muppet. 

    • Matt Orr

       Am I about to leave a like on a post from Danny?

      Awwwwww yea!

  • Richard Sobolewski

    Could we please have a news article highlighting the fact that this “exploit” is present in all sims…

  • Ice Man

    Just to tell you guys…I happened to notice GeneralRushHour (Hampus Andersson) has been attacking VR again at RaceDepartment. It seems there’s no stopping this guy for badmouthing VirtualR. He was banned from iRacing, GTPlanet and VR and he continues to spread his venom. Amazing…

  • Anonymous…ave-exploit-causes-controversy LOL

  • MotherDawg

    I understand that this is an old tread but I cannot believe what I’m reading.

    The 2 Foot Save is for real. I use it in real life.
    No magic, No hack and certainly not a exploit. Just another technique to save your arss.
    I do a lot of rallying, for many years, I’ve been left foot braking all the time. That is why it came easy to me. I learned about it in 1996. Jacques Villeneuve was interviewed on a save he did and talked about dropping both pedals.
    Later on, I read that since the Williams foot well was so small, the steering column was preventing him to apply the brake with his left foot. He had them add an extension that went around the column.

    Just one flagrant difference between MEN and boys. Between people who shoot BS with out single a clue of what they are talking about.
    (I also posted this in the other tread)