Just minutes after posting the Indycar 1995 previews, news comes in that iDT has put their rFactor mods on hold immediately. A certain member of the community has leaked confidential iDT stuff in a very fishy forum, upsetting the team that puts so much hard work into their projects.
This decision affects both the Indycar 1995 and Champ Car 2007 mods, two projects that looked to be a very promising addition to the rFactor world. It’s hard to understand why people leak stuff that does not belong to them just for a few minutes of questionable fame. Stuff like that hurts the community and is a slap in the face for all modders who deserve our respect for giving us countless hours of driving fun.
crobol
June 7th, 2008 at 22:42
If a chance than the admin of this “fishy” forum contacts, iDT close the post and erase the link…..
Whats is fishy? Seems not good…..
Sorry by my poor english
ncc17600
June 7th, 2008 at 22:53
Its unfortunate that IDT have chosen to react this way, penalizing the majority of the patent rfactor gamers who have waited a very long time from the announcement of these mods.
In reality only a handful of hardcore tweakers would have gotten hold of the leaked beta track and even then known full well it was a beta and not a final representation of IDTs work.
I think everyone should put things into perspective before throwing the toys out of the pram.
drowsy
June 7th, 2008 at 22:59
Well, as upset as I am about not having the chance to play the mods, I can’t be too furious as the guys at iDT aren’t getting paid for doing this. I just hope they can get back to work sometime soon and finish these excellent looking mods..
pilpot
June 7th, 2008 at 23:17
Seems like an over the top reaction from IDT. Sure they will be fuming at a leak of unfinished work, but its a very small part of what they are making. If it were the whole CCWS 07 mod that got leaked this reaction would be expected. From my experience of beta or unfinished work, you clearly know its just that and makes you want the final work so much more. This seems like chopping off your hand to stop the pain of a scratch!
I hope IDT continue with their great work for a community that really love it.
MJ
June 7th, 2008 at 23:32
Pilpot, there has been much more before just this. iDT has a rich history of things getting leaked and other things that bring down the moral.
Grozni
June 7th, 2008 at 23:42
like MJ have said, there was the same story about the 06 CCWS last summer, couple of weeks before their official release one of their latest betas was leaked.
So its really pity that because of foolish actions of some guys the whole community suffers.
Dr No
June 7th, 2008 at 23:53
So iDT’s beta work got released early. Once the official work is done, anyone that downloaded the beta stuff will delete it anyway and go with the official version so big whoop.
modbaraban
June 8th, 2008 at 00:50
Posers… Nothing more than that. I never cared much about American openwheel racing, but I think this sort of behavior in the modding community is pathetic. It’s either just a silly excuse to have a sabbatical from modding, or a just pose of guys who think they’re big stars who were mistereated by so fella… whose existance is uncertain tho ;)
modbaraban
June 8th, 2008 at 00:54
PS: if what they say happened is true, they can only blame themselves for sharing the beta with somebody not trustworthy.
Legion
June 8th, 2008 at 02:10
One track was leaked on the F1 Classic Forums.
iDT throw all their toys out of the pram. Pathetic
Dave Ellis
June 8th, 2008 at 02:13
Pathetic that after being screwed by the community that they are rightfully upset over the leak?
Get a grip. I may not be on the best terms with iDT, but when work is done by modders in there spare time, for free for this community, you should be damn grateful. Attitudes such as yours are a disgrace and the reason many modders become unmotivated and mods end up as vapourware. Show some respect for the people who work to give you the cars you drive in the games you play.
Legion
June 8th, 2008 at 02:27
@ Dave Ellis.
The dude who leaked the track is NOT “the community”.
Now they deny “the community” the chance to try out their work.
I for one don’t care about what they do. I wasn’t going to download their work.
Re: “Show some respect for the people who work to give you the cars you drive in the games you play.” : Respect works both ways. iDT aren’t showing “the community” much respect by pulling this stunt.
Legion
June 8th, 2008 at 02:32
p.s. Take a look at the iDT blog: http://www.idtsimulations.com/blog/index.php
It looks like the rantings and ravings of a lunatic to me…
Dave Ellis
June 8th, 2008 at 02:44
How is what is doing disrespectful? They aren’t giving you stuff for free?
The Sim Racing community seems to have gotten it into there heads that not only do they deserve everything for free, but they deserve it quickly, and modders should be doing what they want, when they want. Legion is a perfect example of this. When a modder suddenly decides they no longer want to shower the community with the free content, the community acts like they are somehow entitled to it.
The person that leaked the circuit is every part of the community as you and me. However it seems you have the same disgusting attitude of thinking you are somehow entitled to the free work which iDT has been creating.
Whether Pierre went on a rant or not is besides the point. I know Pierre better than most, having met and spent a few days at a time with him and other iDTers. However whether he made a rant or not, 2 wrongs do not make a right and this does not excuse your attitude on the situation.
This community never fails to amaze me, but then again, why should I be surprised at attitudes like this?
Anonymous
June 8th, 2008 at 02:56
Computer games – serious business.
Legion
June 8th, 2008 at 02:57
“The Sim Racing community seems to have gotten it into there heads that not only do they deserve everything for free, but they deserve it quickly, and modders should be doing what they want, when they want. Legion is a perfect example of this.”
How did you figure that out? I stated that I don’t care what they do. I also stated that I wasn’t going to download their work?
“The person that leaked the circuit is every part of the community as you and me.”
So if someone in your town is a murderer or a rapist that makes you a murderer or rapist?? By your rationale it does! You’re part of the same community as him.
“However whether he made a rant or not, 2 wrongs do not make a right and this does not excuse your attitude on the situation”
My attitude on the situation?! I’m just stating what I see: a complete lack of respect for the community by throwing all his toys out of the pram and ranting and raving about one person leaking one track. It’s a bit of an over reaction.
MJ
June 8th, 2008 at 03:16
Legion has his own reality…
Since when does somebody else deside if other people do something or not, even when they don’t get paid for it?
iDT has all the right to deside something like this. This has nothing to do with the respect to the community. It is more about the lack of respect to them from some people of the community. And since no modding team could really get the illigal modding to a stop, they have to effect the whole community somehow.
If you find the action of iDT a complete lack of respect, you should check a dictionary for the word “respect”, or ask more people to get a oppinion. You’ll be the only one to think like that, or maybe with another sick minded person.
Your oppinion is a lack of respect on its own. It seems like you have paid for the work of iDT, and claim it be a right to get those mods. But you don’t have any influence on what somebody does when there is nothing you will do back for them.
Dave Ellis
June 8th, 2008 at 03:21
Being in the same community as a murder makes me a murder? I’m sorry, but I can’t have a rational discussion with someone who does not understand what communities and respect is. Someone who does not know the meaning of these words should not be using them.
This community is a disgrace and it is attitudes like this that make it such a disgrace. Excellent post MJ.
Legion
June 8th, 2008 at 03:24
@ MJ: If you took the time to read what I typed you’d see that I had no intention of downloading their work, and that I don’t care what they do…
God be with the days of Grand Prix 2 modding, where someone could mod a game and just be happy that someone enjoyed their work.
BTW: Who the hell are you to call me “sick minded”?! My opinion differs from yours. That doesn’t mean you have to get hateful with personal attacks. Try to stay civilised.
@ Dave Ellis: That’s what you were saying. “Being in the same community as a murder makes me a murder?” “The person that leaked the circuit is every part of the community as you and me.” Read and compare those two statements.
F1Racer
June 8th, 2008 at 03:43
I have to slightly side with those who are having a pop at iDT here.
If you run a mod group, you do so knowing that there is always a chance no matter how remote, that something can get leaked.
If you know that, and when that happens you are simply going to put everything on hold (for what purpose I cannot imagine), then why bother in the first place ?
See the problem here is that iDT are one of the big players in the sim-racing community who produce quality work. Yet the actions of one individual is now dictating the actions of the whole mod group. This one guy has managed to stop a mod group just like that ? For a track ?
I don’t see what purpose or what there is to gain from holding up their work. Surely any beta stuff that gets leaked has less value than the final release anyway.
The downside for iDT of course is tht someone has gotten their hard work earlier than expected, but what is the worst case scenario here ? That they finish it off quicker and release it as theirs ? Unlikely.
Do iDT pull that track now or carry on with it? I would hope and suspect they would carry on.
The only reason I can see why you would put things on hold is if you don’t know who the leaker is and you have to find out before you continue. That would make sense. Other than that, I really don’t see who gains from this.
The other aspect that someone has mentioned has nothing to do with people deserving stuff for free.
I think we can all acknowledge that iDT has every right to do this if that is what they feel they need to do. Its just some of us don’t see the logic in it.
So while they have the right, it doesn’t mean its the best decision. Leaks, unfortunately are part of the territory and if your mod group cannot survive such a thing, then its time for a re-think.
MMG had a mod leaked and sure it caused a blip on the radar but they didn’t let it stop any development work. No individual is bigger than the team.
I personally think things are on hold in order to provoke a public reaction to it. Maybe some support.
But again, that won’t change anything and if that is that case, it seems to be backfiring.
Being upset about this is fine. Leaks are upsetting as a lot of people put their hard work into their mods and want to spring it on the public themselves when they feel the time is right.
Regardless of whether I am interested in any of their upcoming mods, I for one hope iDT reconsider their decision and get on with things. Whats done is done. Close off this idiot from iDT and press on guys.
As the saying goes ‘Don’t let the b*****ds get you down’ (or the terrorists win) :)
F1Racer
June 8th, 2008 at 03:46
Legion, I think your missing Dave Ellis’ point.
But to continue your analogy, saying that the person is every part of the community as me and you is like saying a murderer is as much as part of humanity as me and you. Something like that. (yaay I did a short post!)
God
June 8th, 2008 at 04:34
“Fishy forum” like a “6e66o the screenshot ripper”?
Or “RacerBit.de the web of mega ripoff VNL2005 mod?”
To disparage others, we must be clean first…
smokey
June 8th, 2008 at 05:15
Remember when Microsoft Windows XP got leaked when it was in beta? If Bill Gates had pulled the plug on any and all further development after that, where would the sim community be then?
smokey
June 8th, 2008 at 05:36
“This community is a disgrace and it is attitudes like this that make it such a disgrace.”
I’ve got to defend “the community” on this one. You’re talking in this instance, about one individual of a worldwide community, that we are all part of. If you include all the individuals like this withing “our” community it would still amount to less than 1% of the total amount of individuals pataking in actions like these. Therefore, look inside your very own neigborhood/city/town/village. Got a rapist living there? Then it’s a “disgrace”. Burn it. Live in a country with less than 1% of it’s citizens are child molestors? Nuke it! Matter of fact, since the entire population of the world consists of less than 1% of some sort of unsavory individuals, let’s just save ourselve from “disgrace” and fling ourselves into the cold expanse of space. Then our worldwide “community” would be a better place.
I don’t buy the “it’s the community’s fault” argument. Because if it is, it’s your fault as well, being part of this community.
Dave Ellis
June 8th, 2008 at 07:07
Microsoft is a business. They are here to make money. Modding groups are not. They are here doing hard work, giving you work for free. All they ask for in return is respect.
And I am not talking about 1 individual. The community is becoming far too harsh on modders, moaning about release dates and other such stuff. As I said, it is a disgrace. Be thankful for what you get for free, but don’t complain when you aren’t given gifts.
Anonymous
June 8th, 2008 at 08:39
This is what racerm posted on one of the forums.————–
Originally Posted by racerm
This is the only statement I am going to make about this issue.
I haven’t read all of the responses in this thread and don’t intend to or need to, to respond to this matter. I will not discuss how I came about the material and it would be wrong for anyone to speculate how I came into possession of the material. The fact is I released it and I was wrong. I had the material for such a longtime that I forgot about the status of it, so when I released it I did it without thought.
I am SOLELY responsible for the release of the material and violated some of my own principles concerning such matters (although inadvertedly). IDT is entitled to their feelings concerning the matter, BUT it is unfair to punish a whole community for my indiscretion. The rest of the community had nothing to do with the action and if I had been contacted I would have gladly removed the information (it had already been done). I came home popped on the net and found out late this night the dustup.
Since I have been an member I have never before been associated with stealing and publishing anyone else’s material, so I hope this will be looked at in context.
If you want to continue to deride me please feel free but I am sincerely hoping that IDT seriously reconsiders their position concerning their committments and fairness to the rest of the community
—————————————————-
My comment on all of this is that we should move on.
IDT made a point, action was taken and the guy took the responsibility and pulled it down. And this you don’t get from many leachers out there.
About San Jose track, that track was available many months ago and there was no much drama made about it. Who ever posted it , pulled it down very quickly. IDT was very much aware of it. What I don’t understand is, why punish community and blame or put it on us cause of action of one person.We are the ones that come every day to this forum to check your current work for months and now when you guys are close to release day, how about we make some drama(my assumption)…
I understand the point you guys are making, which is to make people aware of leachers but if you are allready making assumption that those leachers are skinless people who steel others work, what point will you make to them. Will that really change their minds. I doubt it.
The only way to fight them is to make the point to or work with your team members and check their character as they are the one guilty in first place here. Releasing your mods and knowing the quality of your staff released, no one will be able leach it.
About the San Jose track, I know that this track was done for customer who paid for it which makes you unable to give it us for free and I think that you guys would be happy to share it with us otherwise. So in a way I see it that probably one of your team members wanted to see his work be published and enjoyed by community and this is the way to choose it.(It was relased last year not yesterday). The similar thing happened to the A1 mod that you were making and you were unable to release it. I even red on one of IDT forums that you guys didn’t mind A1 being released as at least the work donne by your people won’t be wasted.
We should move on. you guys make awesome staff and I for one come here thankfully to your mods. Champ car is the mod that takes the most of my time. Hearing that you guys are working on indy car 95 mod assures me of the quality that you guys will provide us and I don’ t wonna see it leached anywhere as I personally don’t like leached staff as most of the time those leached staff are unfinished staff.
If us wanting to see the daylight of these mods by your team doesn’t make you proud than I don’t known what else can we do…
Sorry for making it so long….
leachers = people who leak staff ;)
Chege
June 8th, 2008 at 08:40
Sorry I posted under anonymous
Chege
June 8th, 2008 at 08:54
To Dave,
I understand you get fed up with people asking for release dates and staff related to it but you have to understand that that is our nature regardless if it is free or not. Sorry if that influences your opinion of community but I don’t see anything wrong with having an interest in what you guys are doing. That is what you want at first place. Otherwise you would keep it private…
Also Legion point does make sense as you are blaming whole community for the act of one person.
Can I also post a question to you dave and other modders out there,
What made you mod and share it at first place ?
What kind of community was it back then?
What is the community doing wrong nowdays? I am not talking about the few people who are leaking staff.
Thanks, regards.
Dave Ellis
June 8th, 2008 at 12:21
What made you mod and share it at first place ?
The fun of modding. No stress. No problems.
What kind of community was it back then?
Started in GP3/4 personally and everything was a hell of a lot more appreciative thats for sure. EMAC Still had the Hall Of Shame of course and things were far from perfect, but the rFactor community is a complete mess.
What is the community doing wrong nowdays?
Well just a quick look around F1 Classic, or NoGrip (although that is cleaner than before) or SimRaceTracker shows how much ripped off and leaked stuff there is in the community. And if you can speak German then those sites are a minefield of ripped off stuff.
Everyone now days is just interested in ripping each other off. So many dodgy mods, so many leaked betas, so much stolen content in so many mods. The on running battles seem to be the Le Mans 70 content and the Virtua LM Prototype C content, which both made its way to rFactor and into the public domain.
The community now days is much more demanding than ever. Everyone wants things for free (remember Hudson?) and everyone wants things now. The number of comments moaning about release dates far outweighs the number of “take your time, we appreciate your work comments” and reading threads like this just hammers home my point. Everyone thinks they have a God-given right to modders work, just because they have looked at some screenshots or watched some videos. Everyone thinks that a modder not giving there content away free, or even giving the content away at all is selfish or disrespectful or whatever. And this isn’t just a select few people either, that is what is depressing.
Quite honestly, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of selfish people in the community acting like I should be spending all of my time working for them. I’m tired of getting hassle over mods because its taken 2 years to get it into the state it is now. I have *no* motivation to complete the projects I have started, but yet I’ll get told I’m disrespecting the community and being selfish for that too won’t I?
Whether or not iDTs reaction is selfish, insane, or rational doesn’t matter. 2 wrongs do not make a right, and not 1 single person in this thread, on rFc, RSC, or any part of this community has any sort of right to the work they have. It was being developed for free for the enjoyment of modders. You were never at any point told you have to download it and you were never promised anything, and unlike a purchase at a store, you never paid cash and therefore have no right to it at all. All of this “disrespect” and “selfish” bollocks is just insane. Some people need to look in the mirror and really have a think to themselves about what selfishness really is.
Ragster
June 8th, 2008 at 15:18
Dave i can understand ur point,but i can also understand legions view too.
Everyone reacts differnt,the one point is when a modding team making an annoucement about a mod isnt that in some way opening up urself to views and comments.
The community as a hole as become hungrier for mods and tracks even more as the years roll on.But i do know for a fact the 95% of us do respect modding teams because like ive said before”if it wasnt for the skills of the modders this game would have died a quick death if had just contained the stock cars”.
The idea of legions is that u shouldt punish everyone for one guys mistake is a fair one,and ur anger of being treated like some modding conveyer belt whos job it is to put out mod after mod,without no thought about urself is also fair.
Buts that is life and we have to deal with it.
All i hope is that u and other modders take a step back and think about.For every idiot in this community their is probarly 100 guys who thank u very much for ur hard work and dedication.And is it fair to treat us the same as the idiots?
IDT’S decision to stop work is there decision and i along with hundreds of others hope they continue and release their mods.And i hope u will do the same sometime soon, that is of course ur decsion too.
I like to take this oppuntity on behalf of all us who respect u guys and look so forward to ur work a very big thankyou.
F1Racer
June 8th, 2008 at 15:27
Looks like we’re losing the plot here. Dave, you can’t really apply your big picture analogies here. This leaked track is nowhere near typical of the attitude of the sim racing community and as a member of that community I feel a little insulted with your opinion. Lets see…..
“What made you mod and share it at first place ?
The fun of modding. No stress. No problems.”
Modding does not come without stress on some level, nor is it problem free.
“but the rFactor community is a complete mess.”
In what way ? How does the rF community differ from any other right now ?
“What is the community doing wrong nowdays?
Well just a quick look around F1 Classic, or NoGrip (although that is cleaner than before) or SimRaceTracker shows how much ripped off and leaked stuff there is in the community. And if you can speak German then those sites are a minefield of ripped off stuff.”
See this is where I have a problem. You answer here does in no way reflect the majority of the sim community. The appearance of leaked stuff and rips here and there are from a few individuals who essentially do not represent the majority of us.
What really gets me is the double standard that some people seem to have in that its ok to sweep under the carpet any rips of commercial stuff but its a huge sin to rip off mods because its done for free. I don’t subscribe to that at all.
The work done by modders is not sacred ground, there is tonnes of freeware out there not just mods.
How many of these mods are made with pirated versions of 3D Max ? Please lets not get into this area.
“Everyone now days is just interested in ripping each other off. So many dodgy mods, so many leaked betas, so much stolen content in so many mods.”
There you go again… ‘Everyone’ ??? Who is everyone ?
Again you are blaming the community for the actions of a few individuals.
“Everyone thinks they have a God-given right to modders work, just because they have looked at some screenshots or watched some videos. Everyone thinks that a modder not giving there content away free, or even giving the content away at all is selfish or disrespectful or whatever. And this isn’t just a select few people either, that is what is depressing.”
Ok lets address this issue of not giving content for free.
I dont see a problem in payware mods, tracks etc. Providing that the quality is there. If the product is good, it will sell, if not it won’t. Ive bought plenty for my flight sim so I dont see why sim racing should be any different.
Now, this ‘God given right’ business…….
When you announce a mod, or post screenshots, previews(and theres too many these days imo) and videos, you are basically announcing something that you are going to release.
Of course there is no written rule that says that screenshots etc dont have to mean that anything will get released to the public, but then whats the point ?
If a mod has been announced as w.i.p. to be released at some point in the future and then you start posting teasers in whatever form, then I dont think people who ask for progress updates or release dates (although thats a pain the a**) are being selfish or thinking its owed to them.
Once you announce your work, you effectively are dangling that carrot. If you take that carrot away as iDT are effectively doing, then yes, that carries some selfishness in it, especially in this case where one individual has caused this. To me part of this action is iDT merely attention seeking and wanting sympathy for their situation.
If a mod group doesnt want people giving their mod any attention, then dont post screenshots, previews or anything until its ready. But that isnt the case is it ?
Mod makers like to show their work or wip’s. It gets the juices going. When that stuff is shown, they know its coming, the community knows its coming and have a real right to expect it too !
And again, please stop using the word ‘everyone’. You cannot generalise in a situation like this.
“Quite honestly, I’m tired of it. I’m tired of selfish people in the community acting like I should be spending all of my time working for them. I’m tired of getting hassle over mods because its taken 2 years to get it into the state it is now. I have *no* motivation to complete the projects I have started, but yet I’ll get told I’m disrespecting the community and being selfish for that too won’t I?”
Well you always have options mate. You know the state of play with the community and you know you are ALWAYS going to get people wanting these unfinished mods. Most of it is excitement not selfishness. If you carry on your work knowing this then you have to learn to deal with it in a professional manner or quit.
“Whether or not iDTs reaction is selfish, insane, or rational doesn’t matter.”
I think it does matter.
“not 1 single person in this thread, on rFc, RSC, or any part of this community has any sort of right to the work they have. It was being developed for free for the enjoyment of modders. You were never at any point told you have to download it and you were never promised anything, and unlike a purchase at a store, you never paid cash and therefore have no right to it at all. ”
Sorry but that is all a load of crap. If modders truly carry that attitude then it will be them to blame to the state of things and not the non-modding part of the community.
Not being told we have a right to it or were promised anything is not how this system works.
You cant get into doing a mod and have that attitude.
If its not for the public then, as I said before, dont dangle any carrots !
Thankfully I think youre wrong and most mod makers dont act or react like this.
FooAtari
June 8th, 2008 at 15:32
Well said Dave.
I don’t much care for the rFactor community, I guess that’s what happens when something gets popular and starts to become mainstream. Comparing to the GPL community is like two different worlds. One is full of immature people, (maybe rfactor attracts younger simmers or something) where people bitch and moan and rip each other.
The other is a much friendlier mature community where modders work together and no one rushes anyone for their work.
I’m always quick to jump in and tell modders to take their time. They work on it their spare time, which most working adults don’t have much off at the best of times. And a rushed mod leads to a buggy/unfinished or simply poor mod. Who wants that?
All mod teams should simply state it’s done when it’s done and ignore requests for release dates or simply keep stating “when it’s done”
I would hope however tat iDT wont punish the community for one selfish persons acts. But that decision is theirs to make.
Dave Ellis
June 8th, 2008 at 16:41
“In what way ? How does the rF community differ from any other right now ?”
Really? Well it is the first sim designed for modding, which has brought many many issues to the table. First, 3D Sim Ed, whilst an excellent program, has meant that leeching is not only easy, but far more common in rFactor than any previous sim. to suggest not is simply blinkered. Remember that rFactorCentral and RSC have kept a tight lid on things, however others have not and it only takes a small deviation from the trodden path to find many weeds.
“See this is where I have a problem. You answer here does in no way reflect the majority of the sim community. ”
For every good site, I can name 2 which have dodgy content uploaded to them, either in the form of ripped mods or unauthroised conversions from other sims. So far the only truely clean sites I have found are RFC and RSC, and of course modders own hosted sites (sometimes…). How does this not constitute the majority? Like it or not there are countless sites out there with stolen content. Some, like NROS and that Brazil group I forget the name of, even rip off entire mods and repackage them with new logos and readmes and claim the entire thing to be theres! Half the iDT betas appeared on some Brazilian leech site with the logos removed years ago! How about the original versions of that CoDeX F1 mod, and the MMG mods? All stolen? Funny that. And this does not even address the issue of certain mod teams SELLING OTHER PEOPLES MODS on eBay, 3D sites, and even to commercial companies! I have had some of my personal work sold to companies like Alex Job Racing, Jim Beam and Aston Martin. Most people don’t even know the half of how corrupt this community is it seems.
“How many of these mods are made with pirated versions of 3D Max ? Please lets not get into this area.”
Less than you’d think. I’d like to go into that area because you’ll find a lot of modders using student and work copies of 3D Max, such as myself, which make it completely legal for us to use the application. Some mod teams have even paid for the software amazingly.
“When you announce a mod, or post screenshots, previews(and theres too many these days imo) and videos, you are basically announcing something that you are going to release.”
Incorrect. It announces you are developing a modification for a game. It does not say you will release anything unless stated so. And even if it does state that you will release anything, I’m sorry, but again, where is the communities right to moan at the modders? Oh, you didn’t get your free addon content because the modder decided to go and have a real life, rather than spend it behind his desk working for you? Worlds smallest violin.
“If a mod has been announced as w.i.p. to be released at some point in the future and then you start posting teasers in whatever form,”
Teasers and development updates are not the same thing. People have asked for updates and I have provided them. When people get rude, I lose motivation and don’t work on it. Me posting a screenshot or an update post is NOT an invitation to complain I haven’t done more free work for you.
“Well you always have options mate.”
Yeah, I have got my options haven’t I. I can continue modding and get complaints from people that I am not working fast enough for them. Or I can stop modding and have people complain I am selfish and disrespectful for not wishing to do more free work for them. Either way, what it boils down to is too many people in the community are arrogant and stuck so far up there own arse that all they think about is the next mod they can play on rFactor, and fail to remember and appreciate the time and effort which goes into these mods by the people who make them, just for the enjoyment of it. If that isn’t selfish, then what is?
“I think it does matter.”
If you think it matters then you must have a reason for it which you didn’t post. Will you expand on that, or simply disagree. You failed to answer my point on “2 wrongs don’t make a right” and just because you disagree with the conduct in which iDT has taken down the mods, doesn’t excuse the modders for the disgraceful conduct which they have used. Again, just because someone does wrong, doesn’t mean others can. iDTs stance does not excuse the community.
“Sorry but that is all a load of crap. If modders truly carry that attitude then it will be them to blame to the state of things and not the non-modding part of the community.”
Urgh, that statement is so depressing. Call it a load of crap then blame the modders for the attitude of the community. I’m glad I’m off to Le Mans this week. Won’t have to put up with the communities bitching for a week. Attitudes like this make me wonder why I bother with modding.
“If its not for the public then, as I said before, dont dangle any carrots !
Thankfully I think youre wrong and most mod makers dont act or react like this.”
And I think your post is a complete disgrace. Anybody who has even the most basic understanding of the monumental task of creating a high quality mod could never post such a statement. I’m sorry, but not for public? Have you never considered why many mods get abandoned, despite the aim being public release?
And yeah, most mod makes don’t react like this. But most mod makers will happily sit quietly and not post there opinion on the goings on in the community, and silence should never, ever, be mistaken for agreement.
FooAtari, I completely agree with the comparison with the GPL community. The GPL community is lovely, the rFactor community is a mess. A perfect example, thank you.
Ragster
June 8th, 2008 at 17:19
Ok now i got a problem.
Tell me if im wrong but when a mod is released who do u guys turn to iron out any bugs and problems?,u cant have it ur own way just because ur the modder that makes no sense.
This is the internet and what respect u get u should be grateful for,and u do have an options m8.
And if the rfactor community is such a mess then y u here,u cant change it,its the internet and whats on it has much as i hate it to say it, is for the taking.If thers a way for people to get something for free then they are gonna take it.If u opened a shop where a sign said “Everything is free” it would be gone in a matter of minutes.Its human nature as much as it sucks thats the way it is.
As f1racer stated y not charge a small fee for ur work i would happly pay for added content.But at the end of the day no one is forcing any of u modders to do anything.
Somethings work out somethings dont,its up to u how u deal with it.
All my respect.
Ragster.
F1Racer
June 8th, 2008 at 17:35
Dave, Im not going to answer every point here because these posts are getting too long as it is.
However, suffice to say that as I have been involved with a few mod groups myself, I do in fact have an understanding of the work involved and its a thankless task in the main.
I am aware of the countless hours and months of their free time that modder put into their work. Also I concur that there is a scourge of people in the community who think its all fair game to rip off an leech other peoples work without giving it a second thought. I have names for those kind of people and none that can be repeated here. So on that part we do see eye to eye.
But where I have an issue with you is this seeming disdain you have for the entire rfactor community because of the actions of certain people in it and that you were personally inconvenienced yourself.
Its funny how the unethical ones seem to decide how an entire community gets percieved. Its almost like turning your nose up at everybody else too when you diss the entire community.
You clearly havent understood some of the points Ive raised as I can tell by your responses, but I really can’t be bothered to get into this any more.
It all boils down to this. Whats happened with iDT has happened. Its not the first time its happened and it won’t be the last. Unless you are very naiive, you get into modding knowing these risks exist and you either accept them or dont bother modding if you can’t.
Its impossible to totally secure your work whether its in W.I.P. or already released.
iDT simply need to not let the actions of one person cause the entre stoppage of their work. That is, as was said earlier, a case of thowing the toys out of the pram.
Where we will never agree is this approach you have to mod development where screenshots and previews etc dont mean that the community should expect anything as nothing has been promised or whatever.
While that is true in that no mod maker is obliged to any member of the community, its also not the correct attitude to adopt within a community.
F1Racer
June 8th, 2008 at 17:41
Another thing… by the same token then Dave, if a mod maker is to make no promises or the community not have any rights to expect anything after announcements and previews/teasers are shown, then conversely it can be said that the mod maker has no right to expect any kind of feedback, positive or negative, any scoring or ranking on rFc or any discussion about it whatsoever back from the community.
If that happened I dont think they`d appreciate it after all the work they did.
So community can expect all they want after teasers are out and modders can expect the feedback and praise afterwards.
This ‘I never said you were ever going to get anything – nothing was promised’ attitude that you seem to think should exist is worse than the community expecting it as if they are owed it (which is an attitude I dont agree with either).
Chege
June 8th, 2008 at 17:52
Thanks, Dave for answering my questions.
I am not being selfish, just excited. Love the shots and teasers that you post. Cheer up, there has to be a thing here and there that brings a smile on your face…
I hope you look more into it and see that not everyone is the same. Your views are a bit harsh and with the state of your mind in regards to the community I am worried that we ll be waiting for the Cart 98 mod a while.
P.S. No one is perfect and neither you or me…
Anonymous
June 8th, 2008 at 18:04
Great publicity for IDT, eh!
Way to hype up a laek that would have passed without any notice.
Idiotic attitude to suggest one leak is representative of the ‘community’.
God
June 8th, 2008 at 19:05
The modders will have to get off the pony.
They are not gods for nothing.
The community is not demanding, the modders are demanding, if you make a mod for the community says it is excellent, is working for the “show”, you are hypocrite, if you like the modding, perform this activity to your satisfaction.
I am tired of modders who complain that they will not do anything more, suffice threat idiots, if you do not like, do not do anything more.
Want to know idiots modders?
Look at the mod GP2 2006
I do not see anyone in the community crying because a couple of stupid modders lie and play with the community.
Anonym
June 8th, 2008 at 19:34
@ God
absolutely right
Shame on IDT for doing that…
All they want now from the community are apologizes so that they can play god…
Now I won´t support IDt and won´t download their mods
erale
June 8th, 2008 at 22:45
I am tired of people like God. Modders should stop releasing their mods. Why should someone make a mod for some idiots? The problem aren’t just people like RacerM but all the other people who download this stuff. The community doesn’t what they get as long as they get something.
It’s sad that the people who DO something for others get insulted by the others who bring NOTHING in the community. Fucking parasites…
MJ
June 8th, 2008 at 22:54
You all seem to miss a point.
“The 3 mods mentioned above will stay in house until further notice” does not say they won’t ever be released, it says that the team will release them when they are finished, and the team is totally happy with the result of this situation (positive or negative won’t mather, iDT knows what they want).
It is up to iDT to tell you guys when or iff they will release the mods or not.
Well, it is true what they say:
“When somebody calls “bad”, somebody else cals “worse”.
Truth Commission
June 8th, 2008 at 23:07
How could a track be leaked that was already on the net for months prior to that? I saw the the track on the net more than five months ago! Now you guys decide that because someone posted a link to it that its now leaked? GEZZZZZZ. Like God said, if you really love modding little stuff like that will not stop you. Everybody has had stuff posted before its time, Arnold Wong WSGT Mod, Norm and NEChris CSGT Mod a bunch of guys, the crew now with the 1975 formula mod is now out, good if you guys are that sensitive go take your toys and go.
R Kipker
June 8th, 2008 at 23:09
Dave, I have a wonderful suggestion… Simply Sell your Mods
Allow folks who want themt o BUY them! Use payPal, I bought golf courses when I played Links.
Simply offer your mods for CASH, as you seem to state many time.
Please understand, I respect your choice and appreciate all the work iDT has done. I’m simply suggesting to setup all your work for D/L and use PayPal as a form of accepting payment.
I would pay, hell, I spent 40 bucks on Grid and it sucks! rFactor and GTR2 are crap with out the MODs and the add-ons. Anyone every play GTR2 from a fresh install? It was fine for a few days.. LOL!
I hope you guys reconsider, your work would be greatly missed.
RKip
Roadblock
June 9th, 2008 at 00:08
See when people act like they’re 12 they get treated like they’re 12. Thanks to one dumbass 12 year old the rest of us get screwed.
DucFreak
June 9th, 2008 at 03:47
There’s at least some points that one can use, to think about after reading the whole messy story:
—-
1)-
—-
The guy that did the mistake shown up and stood up to take full responsability.
while I do condemn his initial atitude, it’s something that has to be taken to account into his favour.
—-
2)-
—-
For a leak to be shared, it’s because there are places where this kind of unauthorized (from author’s) content sharing unfortunatly has supporters.
(BTW, do not mistake unauthorized with ilegal, two completely different things)
The guy who got it leaked is to be blamed, but so is anyone who uses it, period. :mad:
—-
3)-
—-
How the community of users (eh, modders are also users) is divided into those that do not support rip-off’s, following some fair standards AND, on the opposite side, those who completely support rip-off’s and couldn’t care less about the damage caused (and dennying it). (:roll: tut)
For these last folks, when confronted with their actions, the common argument used as excuse is “it’s just a game” and/or “it’s common human nature” and along those lines.
heh… Common human nature…?
I think it’s all about the individual’s education and ethics (or the lack of it!).
I was educated to ask permission to the owner (or creator, to put it in context) when I got the will and possible chance to use something that I don’t own, something that belongs to that someone.
…if the person says “no” and doesn’t authorize me to use it, I don’t use it, period!
…otherwise it’s disrespected (and stealing?), I don’t think that’s too complicated, or is it?
When the punters get all generalist and say “it’s just a damn game and you can’t complain because it was release for free to public” …they obviously don’t have a clue what it’s all about.
Yes, it’s FOR A GAME, but it’s not a game (!), it’s about artist rights (yep!), respect and ethics, it’s ALL down to it, all part of one’s education, and that’s also, perhaps the most important thing over human behaviour.
I was telling this to someone earlyer in a forum, someone who was admitly off to play the “rip-off” (and happily so), after saying that modders make to much of an issue about these rip-off discussions… well, this works for any of you using and defending rip-off’s:
…let’s hope your PC doesn’t get a hack attack while you’re at it, hey, the stupid hacker would be just trying to have fun with computer content that your probably wouldn’t want to be shared (tut… come on man, it’s just a game for the hacker!
). 
PS: good one on the GPL community comparison, I simply can’t understand how that one worked (and still works!) so damn good after all these years, how other ones can’t follow same standards, definitly the greatest example out there.
PS2: sorry for the extremely long post!
Anonymous
June 9th, 2008 at 18:28
I’m now aware of all of IDT dirty washing, the leaked track, past issues, you name it
.
Previously I simply enjoyed their mods, awaited the new releases, and made others aware these great mods were on the way.
In this interenet age, sometimes it’s best to accept there are ‘bad’ eggs in all walks of like, you ignore them and move on with the vast majority who want to mod and play these sims as a hobby.
Speedglenn
June 12th, 2008 at 06:38
I think everyone should stop moaning and bickering. Modders and the Sim Community.
Also leaker’s and leaker sites should be stamped on ASAP to reduce the amount of leaked content.
They should be banned from networks and refused access to mod downloads.
I seriously hope IDT reconsiders continuing to make mods for Rfactor. They are among the best in quality. Thanks,
Speedglenn