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This is getting ugly…

There is no way I will be buying their game.  There is absolutely no originality to it.  I already own pCARS and rFactor.  Talk about false advertising.

Pretty embarrassing that a recognized manufacturer like Porsche is involved in this dirty business.

just get out of the way and let iRacing handle it. ;)

I dont understand why the dirty laundry has to be shown in public like this.

No point in commenting on a contractual dispute between two companies, other than to note that there are two entrenched positions and this will one will eventually resolve, one way or another. 

What’s perhaps interesting is that we have yet another developer trying to create a title in what is becoming a very crowded space.

Broadly speaking, that has to be good for our hobby, but at this rate there are almost bound to be casualties and we can perhaps expect more washing of dirty laundry in public as the competition widens and rivalries develop. Not something I’d personally like to see, but perhaps now inevitable.

Maybe it is a good time to note that Project Cars is an absolutely unprecedented high watermark in community involvement. With Simbin’s desperately ad hoc tidbits of information like yesterday’s rather incomplete Bathurst announcement and ISI’s less than confidence inspiring beta update frequency for rF2 (though it does show terrific promise), I think we might all deduce that SMS has stolen a march on them all, in terms of having a very clear roadmap for their title that, crucially, they are willing to share with us on a weekly, or even more frequent, basis with absolute reliability that something new is happening all the time. That’s exciting, to say the least.

As such, they have undoubtedly won an awful lot of allies in this community – something that’s going to be a key advantage in the “sim wars” to come and in a hobby where lines of communication have changed rapidly in recent years.

weird statement. Its not fals advertising when you state what engine you use.  Reiza GSC is based on rF1 , but its not fals advertising, actually, its way better then rF1 in its original state. 
The same could go for any of the Gmotor titles that could appear..

Of course it is, but in all their promo material they show you their game, that’s the entire point.
When you buy GSC you get what you see on the trailers.

Wim, that’s not a fitting comparison.

They`re using a video showing current-gen graphics to attract customers and their product falls very much short of meeting these expectations. That’s what makes it false advertising indeed..

I know someone who wanted to buy a porsche.. Needless to say he was astonished to see work from SMS being used so shamelessly for promotion. “If 100% of my money would go to the factory workers i’d buy one.. but knowing i’d also pay those kind of people..”

He’s at least considering something else now even though he grew up wanting one..

I dont really understand why there has to be a sim wars though, I think there’s a place for competition. I’ve put a lot of money onto pCARS, but I’ve also purchased RFactor 2 as soon as it came out and I also have an iRacing sub, not to mention my plans of getting AC and maybe GTR3, and frack it, Im probably getting the Ferrari game too even though I have little faith in it.

Personally I would like to see the community become more open to trying more than one game, we complain that our hobby is dieing but when it starts to get back in it’s feet we start a war against each other, that cant be good for the market. I want more than one choice.

Speaking about using things without asking for permission: it would have been nice if you would have at least mentioned the source where you got that picture from, namely me. Apart from that, I still feel you are telling a very one-sided story here, but apparently you don’t even bother to check your story before publishing it. 

I had no idea the photo was yours, credit has been added of course :)

As far as checking the story goes: There’s nothing to check, I simply published a statement from both sides, everybody can make up their own mind. 

Granted, SMS was willing to share more details to make their case but nobody’s stopping AX from releasing more info… I assure you I`ll be posting what they have to say…

Well that’s called news.  Have you been keeping up with the Apple vs Samsung stuff for example ?   Things like this happens in the news every single day. Sim-racing is no exception.

This is really strange behaviour from Porsche. They have all the means to do it properly but somehow they did choose dirty way or they just don’t care. 

This is much better written and more neutral than the previous article about this controversy. Good job and keep us informed!

  Montoya I’m curious about something.
They got SMS’ engine for free, i don’t know what talks went on but SMS wouldn’t be taking legal advise if contracts were water tight, no one can cancel a project once work starts without being in breach of one thing or another.
 If they made significant changes to this engine, can SMS still claim legally that it’s their stuff being used?
 The point being, if i get my hands on SMS’ engine through gullible members and change allot of stuff, is it still theirs or mine now after my adjustments.
And more importantly in a court of law, what argument can SMS make other than, their stuff looks like ours!

Keep in mind that PCARS nor that Porche thing is a released product.

Thanks for correcting that MontoyaVR. I am aware that you are mostly just quoting both sides, but with these controversial stories, I would be more careful to stick with proven facts and remove anything that has not been confirmed. For example, you could have just asked ISI if AutomaniaX have obtained a license to use rFactor at this event.

Marcel, since you were there, any truth in the rumours that they were using GSMF’s Porsche Cup mod and GTR2′s Hockenheim?

As much as i like all sim related Products, I am not waiting for a Microsoft/Google alike fight.
Things like this just divide Sim fans into fanatic fan boy hooligans. As if we don’t have enough of those.   In general the public should not care about this. At this time its just a fight, and its not clear who kicked who first. So we should let the law decide. If you see your neighbor kiss his kids goodbye to school, its not our task to go and yell pedophile.

At the same time, they have stated that “the rFactor 1 engine is not the basis for our future development”.

I´m actually glad they did not choose the PCARS engine!  
Smart move ;) 

This whole news article is hilarious in itself.

I can understand it is considered news, I still don’t agree which the way it being handled, not that I ahve any say in it though….

I would say: stay profesional,
give short statement and leave it that. Take it to court if you have a such a strong case as he tells us they have. Now you are just dragging their (previous) partners through the mud..at minimum throwing mud in their face. Yes he is sour that the video was using SMS stuff, yes they are sour the project got canned, and yes they have all reason to be sour.

I am very interested where along the line this deal went wrong. I would assume that Porsche & Ax have looked into the infamous contract before deciding to ditch the cooperation with SMS. Either that or were forced to stop the production for extra ordinary reasons with the risk of being sued. The latter would imply that something went horribly wrong between the two parties….

Since you took the photo, it would be safe to assume you gave it a try.  Some insight/info would be apreciated!

Did they also steal the porsches from some mod team, and the track from a previous simbin title? Or are we talking actually genuine new content?  ;)

Small joke aside, was it still any good?

(Not again).

Can I just ask who that 2nd paragraph was addressed to exactly ?  Who are you saying is dragging Automaniax through the mud ?  

I really doubt SMS gave them actual code. They gave them a compiled build with 1 track and the porsche car.

They were using an upgraded and unreleased version of GSMF’s mod, with permission from Alfons “Fonsecker” Schurek of GSMF, who was also present. They also used live timing software that was developed by Achim Ennenbach and me (obviously, also with permission) and they told me they have a license for Hockenheim. I hope that answers your question.

Thanks for the info.

Regarding Hockenheim, I’m sure they have a license but who made the content? GSMF never made tracks as far as I’m aware..

 No need to hide any dirty business behind closed door. If someone makes faults, it should be shown and discussed. And simracing is no exception.

ax probably expected that the physics engine from sms is finished by now. from a normal customer point of view i would have expected that from pcars by now too. and thats because mr. bell told us in the nogrip forum thread before wmd opened that they already had the best physics engine there is right now and shift was just handling that poorly because of the cars setup. now they basically make a new physics engine. huh? they probably just gave them the amount of money the trailer was worth but sms wants it all despite they are not using sms engine for their game.

just guessing here. normally don’t do that but there is guessing in that article too. about ax using isi engine without license.

Not sure why you use the (not again) expression there….Hope I am not doing something wrong here…

It was adressed to the article/statement from SMS/Ian Bell.

The dragging through the mud is just a choice of words, it think it is the right wording to use. Excuse me if it is the wrong words, english is not my own lagnuage…..
I believe the legal term is “slander”: “accusing someone of doing something wrong/illegal to damage the person and their reputation”.

Which is what happened in the statement when Ian says that he believes is that they (porsche/ax) have been using the ISI engine without permission. Without ISI backing this up, he is accusing someone of doing something illegal. Hence why I said dragging through the mud..

On a side note…If you visit any motorshow or paddock, the amount of simulators running rfactor with modded content or with anyones games without permission of their perspective owners will suprise everyone!

Again, dont get me wrong, I can understand his anger and frustration and statement, but in my opinion, which I hope I am entitled too here, it is the wrong way to go handle the situation. That is all I am trying to say….

I hope you did not take anything I write as personal against you, as that is absolutely not my intention. If I did then please accept my apology for not being clear in my text.

Do you find it hilarious because it is SMS that are involved?

Would you be laughing if it was the guys from Assetto Corsa who’d had their content used without permission, as has been done here with SMS? Doubt it very much.

No, no worries, nothing personal at all. :)
I said ‘not again’ because it wasn’t the first time I’ve read a post addressed to me where the person writes ‘you’ as if to suggest it was me personally – which it normally would be.
So basically your post suggests that ‘I’ should take it to court and ‘I’ am dragging them through the mud.  Do you see what I mean ?
Maybe because I am a moderator, it is assumed that have more involvement in VirtualR than simply moderating, and I don’t.    Just wanted to clarify that.

Oh come on… you can’t be serious! It’s like I give you a demo platform to show you the potential of my software, you see it but then you break the deals. No more contract. Now you can’t use my software anymore because you broke the deals. But instead you show people a trailer (made by me) to catch the attention of the simracers, showing the same engine I gave you as demo, like to say: “Hey people, look how cool it’s gonna be Porsche Online!”. That’s a fraud and you are cheating users by one side, infringing law on the other side with me, because you are using something that is my property, as you didn’t sign any deal with me to use part of my software. If that wasn’t enough, you also showed in Hockenhein a sim-rig running an rFactor1 mod.. claiming it’s the early stage of your sim… Come on, this is all a scam! Now I would like to know what ISI think about that… as Ax seem to use rFactor 1 engine but… did they pay ISI to use GMotor engine? Because if they are developing their own engine, why do they first use “Madness” engine as trailer.. and then ISI’s rFactor 1 engine for the playable part?

aaah ok, no worries, was absolutely not meant towardss you or anyone around here. It was just a reaction to the article! Sorry for the confusion there.

Scroll down a bit to the answer I gave pez2k.

Actually it was great fun to drive. A lot of the Porsche Supercup drivers had a go and liked it a lot, and there even were a few ex-F1 drivers that took it for a spin. The fact that the two simulators were constantly occupied for 4 days in a row probably speaks for itself.

It is pretty clear that Ian Bell bought this site. It was a nice blog, but now it’s pure business.

Well they (Automaniax) are losing my support. Say what you like about SMS but at least they stay true and they’ve been shat on too much lately. I think i’ll plough what i would have paid into becoming a higher member. At least i know what i’m getting and for the work they do they deserve it. I wonder what the peeps on my forum will think. I don’t want to see a dev who have put in so much hard work get fk’d over. Lots of love Dimahoo.

I don’t know.

Wow, that’s really ashaming for a company like Porsche. Do they think just because everyone wants them in their games they can treat game developers as if they are dumb idiots and can use their work for nothing?
Automaniax statement makes it pretty obvious they can’t deny the fact they have used material for promotion that doesn’t belong to them.
I hope SMS gets at least a decent compensation from Porsche if they take legal actions against Automaniax.

Do you honestly (I mean really!) believe that I wouldn’t have reported in the same way if something like that would have happened to Simbin or Kunos? Really?

This is a close-knit community and we all benefit from the companies involved being healthy so this is a story that concerns pretty much every sim racer.

Ignore him. He hates pCARS and SMS and therefor just talking nonsense

Probably not, because most probably Simbin or Kunos would have taken legal actions without having to spread shit on the Internet.

And yes, it’s pretty obvious that Ian Bell bought this site, when comments like this are allowed:

“Reading the latest news article from Automaniax is interesting. I wonder how much ISI was paid for Automaniax’s use of the rfactor engine. I’d give 10 to 1 odds ISI hasn’t even been approached with a permission request, let alone a contract for fair payment. My personal opinion? We don’t need crap like this in our community.”

Goodbye, David. We won’t miss you. You better switch over to a much better sim racing blog.

Oh, wait. Someone wanna bet if David is just crying like a little baby about this crappy news site but will be back for more comments?

It has nothing to do with “spreading shit”, the trailer is out there for everyone to see and everyone who knows their sim racing can recognize that the sim shows content made by SMS. That would have automatically raised questions and SMS became proactive and answered them, leaving no one in the dark… I’m pretty sure other studios would have reacted in the same matter.

I asked SMS for a statement and the paragraph you find offensive was part of it. Who am I to censor Ian? If you ask someone for their take on a matter, it’s only fair to publish what they say. It’s clearly a quote and not VirtualR’s opinion so I really don’t see a problem with it…

One would think that you would appreciate someone speaking their mind freely instead of hiding behind non-substantial PR chatter.

just made a guess why they switched engines. and if they were not satisfied with the progress of sms engine then it is ok to do so. but i never wrote that it is ok to use the trailer. 

i think to know why they use another engine now is the more interesting thing about this.

No i just refuse to take anything seriously that comes from a site owned by the company (or victim) in this case. 

You only see one coin of the story and in the meantime PCARS will just give you the goodies on everything so you will know for sure Automaniax is a BAD BAD company…. 

This is why it´s hilarious. Like reading a report about Microsoft created by Apple. 

The fact that Montoya doesn´t seem to understand this problem i find it even more hilarious.

Probably sneaking at RaceDepartment like most haters do. But you are right. He will come back for more bashing until he got banned.

Are you for real?

So if this article gets published at say Eurogamer or Gamespy or IGN, are you going to claim Ian Bell has bought those sites as well?

I don’t need to come back because I never said I am leaving. The fact that I think Ian Bell bought this site for his own interests doesn’t mean that the site is shit or crap. Just that I liked it more when it was (or at least looked) full independent.

And I won’t be banned because I know how to behave, unlike both of you with such personal attacks. Grow up.

 No problemo. Thanks for clearing it up.

“if”. That’s the key. But I bet we won’t see it.

There is nothing wrong with the story posted, but the comments on the other hand….

Jee , I remenber the days of RSC ( the real one). If we compare these days comments to what it used to be, its clear our hobby is going down the drain, because of ego tripping and ignorance.

The blind man is shouting to the deaf guy that he has seen the light.  Lets focus on some more exiting news.

 I win.

If everything is so crystal clear, it will be resolved. I doubt that Porshe would not have its papers in order. 

 I for my self didn´t make any judgement, yet. But if you would have seen the reaction of Ian Bell and Andy Garton in the WMD-forum when the video trailer appeared, you would probably know, that there must be something wrong.

Of course it´s not yours and will never be since the owner and creator of the engine has copyright and as long as he will not share it with you for free or as open source (what SMS never would do) all rights are at SMS, also if you manipulate the engine and make adjustments, it isn´t yours…it´s still SMS.

Do you really think, SMS as a developers gave aways their engine for free (remember that the development of such an engine can cost millions)?

 Well it’s posted on DrivingItalia.net.

 What Im hoping is that Porsche didnt had any idea of what was going on between AutomaniaX and SMS, I wouldn’t be surprised and it would certainly be better news than finding out they were also behind it.

 ”And I won’t be banned because I know how to behave”   

Cutting down on the accusations will help you out there. :)

Considering how ridiculous the assumption that Ian Bell purchased this site even though it continues to publish news from pretty much every other racing game, do you have any evidence whatsoever to support your claims or is this all just circumstantial?

Im totally cool with people not liking pCARS or whatever, everyone has the right to like what they want, but damn some of the conspiracy theories I’ve heard are just borderline insane.

Just my opinion, but it would really sound stupendous, saying that a company like Porsche would spend time and effort into trying to get a game out, and then deliberately trying to evade a contract. 

I don’t think they regard Gaming media that high. Its one of the few company’s that where not even that interested in licensing their cars.

let me grab some popcorn.

Now that’s not a surprise. He posts everything he finds here … and there  :-)

( Sorry.. could not resist… Nothing wrong with it )

Wow, an accusation of doing something legal :O

You could at least try to give a warning to the people who is attacking personally to others just because they don’t agree with it.

@MontoyaVR:disqus 

I was going to reply, but I’ve seen that Delice has the exact same thoughts as me regarding how you guys are handling this issue, so it’s pointless to repeat the same.

Thanks mate, that seems to tie in with their ‘community’ slant then. Congratulations to you, Achim and GSMF for being recognised by such a prestigious company as Porsche.

Why do I need to provide any evidence? It’s just my opinion, I’m not so important to have to justify it, and anyway they have the right to do whatever they want with the site, as well as I have the right to share my view. I just find a bit strange how some news are handled in the last weeks.

Ok so just so we are all clear, you have the right to have your own opinion and state it as a fact (as you did a while ago), but the staff of the site cannot?

Let’s stop the Race Department bashing please. I’ve been a member on RD for many years now and recently the website has enjoyed a huge influx of people, some are outspoken about many games!

Not everyone who posts at RD hates SMS or CARS, just a vocal minority who post the same arguements over and over again. The owner of RD lets these people vent because they are allowed to post what they genuinely feel – that is the great thing about being on an independent forum.

Race Department supports many racing games from a variety of different developers too and when CARS is released, I’d be amazed if there isn’t the same support for it as there will be for rFactor 2, GTR 3, Assetto Corsa etc.

David, to be fair, the reaction you are getting is not surprising considering what you are saying.   Having an opinion is one thing but sometimes certain opinions are best kept to yourself.    Saying that Ian Bell owns the site can be seen as flamebaiting.  

This is a news blog, the article here is news.  Personally I don’t know why people are so sensitive about it.
I hope you don’t sit and watch the news on TV and wonder why peoples ‘dirty laundry’ is getting aired. 

You want your opinion to be heard and respected but what about the opinions and quotes of those in the article ?  Ian gave his opinion on the ISI engine being used by AX and clearly it was just his opinion.  Isn’t he allowed that as much as you are allowed yours ?

Maybe drop the comments about Ian owning this site as they are untrue and do away with the bad language and chances are you won’t get the reactions you’ve been getting.  
I see those kind of comments as a personal attack on this site and on Montoya too because it suggests he sold out.

This is legitimate news and there is no reason why it should not or can not be posted. 

…and now the weather…

Porsche and other big multi million $$$ companies think we got the money and the rep no 1 will take us on.

 they might not have in the past but gaming is that big now every1 wants in. Porsche, BMW, Ferrari all of them more publicity free advertising and getting paid cmon who woudnt want there product in gaming these days

Maybe you are not registered at WMD, otherwise you would know that Ian Bell didn’t want to talk about the Automaniax affair, but since so many members were claiming that SMS were selling something to a 3rd party developer without compensating people involved into pCARS project (believing for example that selling the Madness Engine was like cheating the forum members, while Madness is SMS only property), eventually Ian Bell was forced to talk about this issue, clarifying some things to us, members… But SMS had already talked about a legal action with their lawyers. And what if ISI, looking at the presentation of the sim at Hochenheim, asked Automaniax some words about the engine they were using there publicly? If Automaniax states that they are developing their own engine, it would be nice to know why they let people play an rFactor 1 mod, claiming it’s their game at very early stage…

Perhaps sim wars is too emotive a term for what I was trying to describe. I was really referring to a situation where many of us are going to have to decide which sims to buy and which ones to ignore. Up until now it’s been easy to support more or less everything, which I ,for one, have done. However the future is going to be much more crowded and more careful purchasing decisions will have to be made. 

Competition is always healthy and should be welcomed. I’m still amazed that just when one might least have expected it, we are looking down the barrel at a wide range of new titles over the months/years to come.

Oh, I didn’t know that. Thanks for the info. I am registered at WMD, but I have not logged since some weeks.

 David– that is a quote from Ian Bell… not from the author of the article.  All news stories use quotes in them– they show the position of the party being interviewed and do not automatically show favoritism or bias as you are inferring. If this site was automatically editing out replies from Automaniax then that would be biased.  But there is no proof of that nor, in my opinion, any reason to believe they are doing that based upon past behavior (and I come to this site frequently and have done so for years).

You are very right. I don;t think (or at least I hope) is limited to simracing. I think the internet dialogue is going down the drain in general. 
Let me give you an example: I belong to a fairly popular but still small league where the total active membership that reads and comments on the forum has to be less than 100 people.  I would think even much less than that, but I feel generous.

Recently I made a comment about one of the sims. It was a personal view limited to one of the features. 
One commenter totally ripped my head off in a follow up post. Honestly, I see that he had a different opinion, but the tone of the post and the personal attack where a total surprise to me.

If something like that happens in what is a very close knit community, imagine in a more public forum like this one. Good thing we don;t deal with politics or religion. I fear what would happen.

You need to grow up, where is your proof he bought it, you sound like the ignorant people who claimed that when allied forces use other modders material and made a living out of it, I am so sick of idiots like you who can see the dam falling and say that the people who are drowning destroyed  it so they could prove that the dam wasnt safe.

You know what this idiot just wants some play, let him talk to himself and lets see how long he lasts answering him self!  

 Why come here if you think it is so biased?  Montoya will publish the other side if he gets it.  Right now, Automaniax isn’t sharing their perspective…. that doesn’t mean he should hold the story until he gets it.  If all news agencies did that we would have little news on many things.

I am a bit tired of people casting aspersions on this site due to some made up story that only exists inside their own mind. If you have hard evidence that Montoya is covering up the other side of the story then please share it.  If not, then his work over the space of many years serving the community overrides your conspiracy theories.

 Are you trying to imply that Porsche approved the use of this promo?  I don’t think I have seen any facts that tie them to this release.  AX could have certainly done this on their own… (and I hope they feel the wrath of Porsche if that was the case!)  I think we should wait to hear the facts on the involvement of Porsche before more assumptions are made.

I think the only fact on the table is that AX used pCARS IP in their promo.  Everything else, how ever believable, is still short of fact.  Pretty tough pickle for AX, though…

 Maybe Montoya needs a disclaimer on some articles where it says something like “The views and opinions expressed in this article do not necessarily represent the position of VirtualR’.  

Doesn’t have to be Porsche necessarily, rather a small division or even a single individual. Some years ago, I used to design and produce a giftware product. In separate dealings I had my prototypes stolen and then displayed as the other company property a floor above the gift show in New York we were all attending and in a separate incident I had a really bad experience where Walt Dysney (yes, that one) outright stole some of my designs and some of my finished products.

However, in both cases it wasn’t the company proper doing that, but an individual in that company that decided to behave unethically. 

this could very well well be a similar situation where the person from Porsche is either not aware of the proprietary issues or acting on his own without the knowledge of management.

However, even if that’s the case, I wouldn’t be surprised if the company decided to round the wagons and get behind their employee. It happened to me in one of the cases above while in the other case the person in question was removed from the project.
(and this happened over 20 years ago. I doubt anyone is still involved with either company)

Now we have a copy cat, at least find someone with a brain to to ally with. You want to slander some one and you dont have a foot to stand, no make that any feet to stand on. You know people like you ought to find a room to crawl into and just bash each other!

 I doubt Porsche was involved directly in any wrongdoing (if there is any).  The head of marketing at Porsche has more to do than track all the details between two game development companies. He may have signed off on the project overall but beyond that, details have probably been off his radar.  If there is a mistake on his part, it may be that Automaniax is run by a friend and thus Porsche has trusted them a bit too much in the process. 

Still, although it appears that Automaniax improperly used the trailer, the full extent of any intentional wrongdoing is unclear at this point.  Yes, it does look like they “stepped in it”, but it is possible this was all a set of poor, uninformed choices on their part and they will make things right with SMS when given the opportunity to do so.

I mean I have commented on a lot of this but maninly for people who in their opion just slander people, but I agree with you, the racing game is getting back on it’s feet, so why are they going at each other, there are so many different taste in consumers, you pick the group you want to go after it. I agree with you thought  pcars would not be my taste, but I love how they have involved the people who will be buying their game. Is it to hard to just woo the people you need. This is starting  sound like the elections. No body gives facts it is just legal slander!

WOW..  and here I was thinking Sim Racing was about fun?!! 

I think VirtualR should concentrate on the Sim Racing and let the lawyers concentrate on the legal BS…

 Montoya, while I completely support what you’re doing here and absolutely mean no harm, I can understand why some people are so up in arms about this whole thing.

You needn’t listen to a word I say, but my advice would be to sound much more neutral on the subject. There are many key words in this article and last that really open it up to heavy criticism. I don’t agree with it, but I can definitely see where people are seeing the disconnect. Again, just my two cents, and I will continue to support you and your site as I have been… Although I do wish you’d cover some arcade-style games like the non-Shift releases of NFS :P

-Blacker.

damn another old and boring pc vs mac with a little linux internet link to share with friends , with some enemies in audience.

Maybe SMS and Porsche can settle this issue by having SMS receive part of their original compensation + license of a few cars.

Tee hee.

Agree. Sometimes Drivingitalia’s moderator is funny lol

What about Simbin? They sure don’t seem to have a ‘what you see is what you get’ when it comes to screenshots. Is that false advertising too?
I’m not implying something here, it’s a serious question.

EA had exclusivity didn’t they?

This isn’t big news. I only hope there isn’t any comunity money involved.

“We don’t need crap like this in our community” Couldn’t have said it better myself

Clearly in need of 6 figure compensation…the man only has two porches  and one ferrari 458… Poor bloke. Everyone deserves payment for their work but i think the work is over valued compared to some real everyday heroes out there!

The bad thing about all this is not just that the level of communication goes down the drain. What is even worse, real manufacturers, racing teams and drivers started to become part of the simracing family, just within the last two months, real racing teams like Farnbacher ESET Racing or Manthey Racing started to cooperate with simracing team, even their real drivers start in virtual championships now (independece-trophy WTCC champion Marc Hennerici does for quite long now as we all know, but even new guys like Kentenich, Rast, Farnbacher, etc.) are part of “our” simracing family now. And I don’t like to see, that at a time in which flaming and hating against people with other opinions about a sim/physics etc. seem to be common, guys from real life racing might start to think “hey, the sims are quite nice okay, but the people there are just a bad joke – I’m getting back into my real car then”.

With all the great sims coming and already out there, our scene now really has the chance to rise above all the other stupid games, but our own people and family ruin it by being to stupid to behave like a human being should do…

I read stuff that is neutral. This isn´t. 
The iracing save hax thread isn´t. 
Plus a number of others, some of them cause a whole lot of stir and i wasn´t the only one reacting to it. 

Again, your in a closed enviroment with one side of the coin. 
Your not gonna be any smarter or know more because of that.

I take it you are referring to the articles not being neutral.  
Well clearly this one is not putting Automaniax in as good a light as SMS here. But there seems to be a very good reason for that. So kinda hard to put AX balancing on the scales with SMS here.

And how about those that comment ?   A lot of those are definitely not neutral.  A lot of opinionated people with leanings to one side or another.

If you want to only read neutral stuff, I really can’t imagine where on the net you could go to do that.

Whatever the other side of the coin may be, SMS seem clear that their contract has been breached.  So unless they’re openly lying we have to assume this is the case.  The only reason there is one side of the coin here is because AX have barely spoken on this topic.  
Some people are capable of taking that into consideration before coming to an opinion and that opinion may still be that AX are in the wrong here.  Right or wrong it’s their opinion.

Besides Rob has already said that if AX elaborate more on this than they 2 lines they have already given out then he will post their side too, whatever that may be. He can’t post info he doesn’t have and it’s not like they would just spill it out to him if he asked.

This article is mainly the quotes from Ian Bell and the short paragraph from AX. Thats all there is to go on at the moment.

 I think you hate actors, high class-athletes and singers, don´t you? :)

I was really shocked when the first article went down after only 2 and a half days , but i m happy to see the propaganda has returned ….

i used to trust the articles (ok with a pinch of salt sometimes) but this isnt news this is just propaganda , so how about you go back to posting stuff for the sim community and not being the mouth piece for SMS

please……….

Are we gonna get a weekly update of this legal affair? Automaniax and SMS are having beef. So what? Can we go on now? Ooooh I forgot this is VirtualSMS offcourse….

Not at all I work in the music industry myself, don’t forget that there are only a handful of these types of people who make lots of money, I just found it funny how he was complaining about how much money he lost and finished it off with I own two Porsches, he’s not strapped for cash by the sounds of things. I’m not saying that Automaniax had the right to do what they did either!

Christ, will you people stop whinging !

I’m growing very tired of these kind of comments now and I’m sure Montoya is too.

You want to move on ?  Read another article.  Move on yourself. No-one forces you to read these ones.
You have an issue with Rob working for SMS and maintaining this site and cannot get past that without resorting to conspiratorial comments ? Move on then. Don’t come here to troll.

Another one who can’t read an article with SMS in it without presuming Montoya is posting them to bring some sort of advantage to SMS (To what end I cannot imagine.)   And that isn’t bias in itself ?    If this was Automaniax and Simbin, then what would Montoya be accused of ?  Cos the story would likely have still been posted because it is news and it relates to sims. 

Again my above comment to SamuelKorthof applies to you and anyone else with thoughts of accusing Montoya of bias or SMS owning this site etc etc.    This is his site and he can post what he wants.  Your reading of these type of news articles is voluntary.  Have your opinion by all means but express it in a way that is not derogatory or inflammatory.

It hurts. It really hurts to read such stuff. This is nothing that has to be said in public. We want to race our simulators (or racing games). Why do we start to talk about such bullshit?

This is like a friend is coming to my place for playing cards and he constantly moans about his business relationships…. We don’t want to hear such stuff… we just want to get the newest info about our hobby.
Normally I’m completely with vR when it comes to it’s content but this time it failed for me…And now that we know: Why is someone like Ian so careless and let people tell such stories about him? This really hurts his business… Well,… bad news is better than no news I guess…I will get back into my cockpit now,… let’s race again!BTW: It’s not us that are moaning…. it is SMS that is moaning in public…

Someone must have told about it anywhere. Must be a nest somewhere.

 Yeah, but at least most developers live at the edge of abyss and any bigger unpaid development can cost a hell of money or even ruin your company. So I understand his opinion.

Also mentioning the two Porsches was directed to Porsche itself . They sold him two cars, but at the sam time playing dirty games with him. Would you be happy about spending several hundret thousands of dollars for their products but being treated like an asshole?

Its like reading youtube comments.

 Aye Kenny Kenny Kenny…

You want to race your simulators ?  Then why are you here reading these articles ?  Go RACE !!

Some people talk about it because they are interested in whats going on.  Some aren’t.  Those that aren’t are not forced to read it or respond as you have done.   This article is easily skippable.  Its not like you HAVE to read it to get to the others.  Don’t like it?  Move on to an article that you do like.  Allegedly Automaniax has hurt Ians business, not anyone here.    

The responses and accusations from a few people here are far worse to read through than these articles on Automaniax.   Seems people only think their opinion is valid and that the site should be shaped around their wants and desires.    On the top of the page it says “Sim Racing News”.  That’s what this is.  It can’t all be cherries and roses.  It can’t all be good news unfortunately.

Well, I have a gun and an itchy trigger finger right about now. :)

To be honest if I had a several hundred thousand dollars in the first place I would be pretty happy whatever lol!

Yeah you would but you still wouldn’t sit there and let someone walk over you, would you ? :)

AX needs to make things right, whatever that takes, so that both companies can move on letting us lot benefit from what they have to offer.

What kind of weird take on business is that? By that logic, nobody would ever have to pay any bills from Microsoft while doing business with them because their founders are loaded…so they can do without, right?

The head of studio’s job is to keep the company afloat, the employees and their families depend on him to do a good job with that. A team of people worked hard to create these assets and they deserve to be compensated for their work, end of story.

That’s not a good comment after the Batman incident last week. Maybe sombody can lock you up, just in case…….

Is that Ian sitting in the left raceseat?

That definitely was false advertising, which is why Im taking all their new announcements with a pinch of salt.
Im not entirely sure who would be in charge of seeking for justice in that case though.

The biggest irony is Ian Bell talking about “community”… lol that’s rich.

Let’s see, if I have to choose who to believe, Ian Bell or Porsche? I choose Porsche.

Ian Bell or Automaniax? I choose Automaniax.

I would believe Bigfoot exists before I believe anything Ian Bell says.

Right, because someone who started out as a modder in this community doesn’t have any right to talk about it in your book?

You should really read up on the history of SMS and the people behind it because before spreading such ridiculous nonsense.

 You know you don’t have to read and comment on every F&n comment right?
If you’re tired of it, move on bro gday.

You don’t get to be in that position by giving your work away. Also, money =/= happiness.

Thanks for that carefully considered opinion. Who the hell are you again?

This x1000. I don’t think people realize that the same devs making Project CARS also worked on GTR and other well loved sims.

I’m perfectly aware of who Ian Bell and SMS are. I know the “history”. I’m 44 years old.

So now opinions that are contrary to Ian Bell are “ridiculous nonsense”.  OK, that’s fine :)

Everyone knows Eric. SMS won’t let you forget it.

But they haven’t made a sim since GTR2. 

In fact, they’ve made 3 arcade console racers since then: Shift 1, Shift 2, Test Drive: Ferrari

SMS as a dev team has never made a sim… yet ;)

This is a blog, you know. A very well made blog, but a blog nonetheless.

The owner(s) posts what they want. Personally, I like hearing about this kind of thing as, if it’s confirmed true, is reason enough for me not to buy Automaniax’s products. Should devs and testers keep their mouths shut about the horrible practices of EA? I like knowing about development houses as I like knowing about all the companies I buy products from. There’s a reason I don’t buy EA games, Monsanto lawn care products, or BP gas.

He´s mostly commenting on the stupid ones, so the haters don´t feel alone and get some attention.

I completely agree!

People taking these comments a liitle bit to heart,

I was only saying that its hard to feel that Ian is hard done by when he finishes off the statement with “I own two prorsches!” lol!

your right though it will be great to have another sim on the shelves too! :-D

Cool story bro…
BTW at this point, I’m quite amazed that Montoya even replies to these posts. :D

and your point is? whether they have made a sim is nothing to do with your original statement. Besides that, they went for commercial success first, make some money to fund a sim. At this stage sure, we only have the best looking racer around, and not the most realistic, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but is still irrelevant in regards to your initial statement.

Meh… the comment section is oficially fucked here, all SMS-related posts are filled with troll comments and comment replies feeding them! Damn. I would hand out bans like candy :D (I’m beginning to appreciate the no-warning refund policy over at WMD forum – it gets rid of the trolls quickly and painlessly.)

But he’s not making out he’s hard done by, its his company, the work they did have a £ or $ value associated with it, like anything, for the sake of stakeholders they can’t let it go, nor can they be seen to be limp wristed and get walked all over, or the next guy will do the same. 
If he has two porches, good on him, he’s worked hard for it no doubt, but if you read his point in context it is that he paid money to Porsche in goodwill for the cars, and then they steal his work, surely by that thinking he should be able to go down Porsche on the A4 in Chiswick and permanently borrow a 911 Turbo.

Bugger, was meant to be in reply to LukeMarple below!!

Ah great the moderator who miss-understood the part of being a moderator. 

It does not mean get involved in every discussion ever created. 

And again… Keep this up and you soon have replied to every single post made on VirtualR. 

Your job is to moderate, not get involved in every single discussion out there. 

I think its good to know too, interesting to know what goes on behind the scenes in the sim world, we see these type of things on a small scale when one modder releases another modders work as his own, just this time it involves much bigger commercial rights.

It’s not about a one person or how rich someone is, it’s about company and about people who work for this company. They must protect it and openness around it is good to rise people awareness.

I completely agree they do deserve to compensated, The difference there is that he’s claiming to be financially out of pocket to the tune of 6 figures because they used SMS property in a trailer, At the end of the day the engine will not used in final release and was not developed solely for the title, they only lost out on potential profits. I struggle to feel sorry for someones financial situation when they seem to be living a fairly comfortable lifestyle.

also realistically Microsofts founders probably can do without, they have money coming out of their ears, why do they need more? Greed is the only thing that comes to mind! I appreciate that is unfair to say because they donate a lot of money away for which i respect them. In reality they still have an aweful lot more money than really needed, lets be honest! Some people work harder and barely get by how is that fair? whether its good business or bad business is irrelevant. In fact the best businessmen sit on their arse and get their peasants to it for them! lol! Usually followed by screwing over the country and get a nice fat bonus for their efforts! lol!

You’re right Kris, it has nothing to do with my original statement. But Eric and Montoya think I should remember “the history”….???

OK, I remembered :)

I still think you lack fundamental understanding how this all works. Of course he has to go out of his pocket for all this, the assets shown off in the trailer had to be created by people who were paid to do just that… do you think this stuff is created out of thin air? somebody just clicks their fingers and this stuff is there? 

I don’t know what kind of job you have but I assume you work for a company that offers some kind of service to other people. Imagine your boss coming to you saying “Luke, there’s no salary for you this month because xyz” and when you rightfully complain about not getting compensated for your work your boss says “Please, last week you told me you bought a big flatscreen tv from your past salaries, don’t expect me to feel sorry for you.”

Sounds fair? How much someone has earned with past business transactions is irrelevant when it comes to being paid for current work. The same goes for Microsoft, it has nothing to do with greed. They offer a service, the price is known beforehand and nobody’s forced to make business with them. If people do and they provide a service to them, they have to get paid….whether or not their founders are Billionaires is completely irrelevant.

The only thing that tells us is that they do a damn fine job running their company, that’s in no shape or form an excuse for screwing them over.

 You forgot BMW M3 Challenge some years ago.

any one sided view that takes only one position can fairly be described as propaganda; i have in no way attempted to insult or inflame any one , but yourself mister F1racer are now proposing shooting me do i take that as a threat , as sarcasm ?
My view is that this is the only Sim related news site that is making such a long song and dance about this article , others have mentioned it but the story has not been headlining quite as long , the last bulletin stayed up for over 48 hours in the sim world at a period when other news was coming out .

So can you cut the insults please (F1 Racer), and apologise for your threat to harm me

That was Blimey! Games, not SMS. Yes, a few of the same members, but different Dev team. And they were using the ISImotor engine for that game.

I’m referring to the SMS Dev team and the Madness engine. Not a single sim yet.

Ian Bell sold his 458 last year, and his Porsche is a 996. Hardly the sort of riches where five figures is disposable, never mind six.

your absolutely correct, you sure he paid them for the cars in good will and not just because he wanted some Porsches lol?

But who are you to say that he’s not allowed to join discussions? He used to post a lot of comments even when he wasn’t a moderator. Would it suddenly be acceptable to you if he just replied to everything with an alt account instead?

 I’m self employed so unfortunately none of that quite works for me! haha! I completely didn’t mean any of this in negative light however it came across! I have mentioned a few times that i’m also in favour of them protecting thier rights and their work, I guess you could say I wish the world worked in a different way. Nothing directly meant towards Ian, good on him for being so successful!

I imagine that the trailer only took one of their talented guys 20 mins to make on his tea break between modeling Pagani’s and Beemers anyways lol!

yes your absolutely right!

What alot of pCARS fans don’t realise though is that GTR2 was done when they didn’t have to please console crowds and they actually cared about how the game was. Also i think Simbin would disagree with them saying that all the time. Didn’t they threaten SMS at one point for using GTR2 as something they ( SMS ) had done in the past. Money talks these days. It was also done on the ISI engine. They are struggling with their own Madness engine. It’s all a load of rubbish IMO and shows really how poor SMS are i think, airing this in public like they are.

With this kind of comments you are not worth having a Senna profile pic.

I don’t understand the comments as to how this isn’t news. Firstly, there wasn’t much news in the sim racing community when this was posted. And a company is potentially getting screwed over. How is that not news?  Okay lets berate SMS for making 3 arcade games but don’t forget it was still Ian and Andy heading the team behind Blimey Games. 

Even if they don’t have the same physics guys (which is pretty much at the root of sim racing) they still bought plenty of other features we didn’t really see. How can anyone knock Ian when every game he’s featured in has a fantastic choice of cars?. 

I love how people forget or don’t understand that EA controlled what SMS put out. The only thing – if anything – you could accuse Ian of was standing by his product and the ONLY thing the honestly got wrong with Shift was the physics. And they didn’t have the time and were under EA’s control.
Not one person reading this – in Ian’s shoes – would turn around to EA, who are paying them and say “no we’re not doing that because we want a hardcore sim that will only appeal to a niche crowd” or “we don’t have the time” because they’d either be taken off the project or plainly told – “its going out on this date. End of”.But hey lets forget about Ian’s clear love of cars and the other facts SMS had to adhere too and whilst we’re at it, totally, consistently knock a game that in its current form isn’t that bad at all and still has tyre physics to be added AND has a fair amount of reportable updates (and news) every week. But to hammer the point home lets look at how Ian’s venom is so poisonous that Virtual R have actually stopped posting about other games. So much so that other websites have posted even more news about them.
Let have a look..

Inside sim racing – top story - 
1. pCARs/automaniax controversy
2. pCARS Z4
3. WRC 3 (oh check that out…is that a sim now?)

Sim racing world
1. Community manage wanted
2. WRC3 again (ooh what bias these sims sites have)
3. Bathurst Screenshots. I’ve seen those somewhere before – WMD i think (but it may have been here). That first one is the site that Ian owns BTW.

Race Sim central
1. Iracing stuff
2. more iRacing
3. GT5 academy 

Now excusing the iRacing news which is about fans and Jake Pastrana (you know, that sim racer who does lots of sliding around – he was in that Codemasters “simulator” as well) all the other news is pretty much the same thing.
Now taking away all the crap about fans and academies and job offers – what sim out of all those coming has more updates then any other?

Now assuming you know the answer why wouldn’t it stay in the news more often?

The only thing he really got wrong was the physics? That’s kind of a biggie don’t you think for a racing game/simulation? EA are not to blame as much as you think i’m afraid. Test Drive Ferrari is much the same. It’s the engine they are using that is the problem and them being too obsessed with graphics that is the issue. Give them the gMotor and IMO they could do a great sim, also dump the consoles. The Madness engine feels like a console engine that is designed first and foremost for pads

I understand you have an agenda and I really don’t care but please stop posting blatant, unsubstantial nonsense – Thank you.

Oh dear. No agenda here just an opinion.Becuase i don’t like pCARS i can not pass an opinion and it’s an agenda. Maybe then they should not air stuff like this in the public if people are not allowed to make an opnion

Moderator F1Racer comes to save Montoya’s day again. Sorry but I’venever seen a big article about legal affairs in simracing world like this one on Virtualr. There have been alot of them for sure. Its like commenting on a footballmatch wilst you are one of the employees of one of the clubs. Maybe you try hard being objective people will always be suspicious. That’s the price you pay for it ask the ISR guys. They had the same with iRacing but after a lot of “trolling” they chanced their game. Now ISR is back at were they where. The community is just looking for objective news and you can’t blame them. We live in a world full of big cooperate or political influence in “objective” media. So as I said before F1 try too step in our shoes rather then making rude and even sometimes childish comments.

gutted! those 458′s are stunning cars!

He´s in so many he would have a hard time remembering where on his tape recorder messages he is. 

Moderators should be moderating, not interfere with every person who has a different thought. 

For Shift 2 – i’ll agree. But it was rushed.
pCARS is much better.
I can’t much difference between their 49 and Rf2s and the NASCARS are lovely and heavy. I will say it doesn’t feel a smooth as i’d like. Thats my one worry with pCARS is that the cars don’t seem to turn perfectly – or as smoothly as i think it should. If i turn a car it doesn’t “jolt” in real life as they can do sometimes but how that tyre physics thing will translate i don’t know. But i don’t think something is right in this part.
Its not a worry from a gamers perspective, but for me to stand up for it as a sim on here, i will say it worries me a bit.
As for Ferrari – that was a Test Drive game. Ian said that over on WMD after i asked – its Test Drive – don’t expect pure sim and you’ll get a lot of enjoyment. Yet its funny as all the major gaming sites – the ones that don’t usually even report iRacing or Rf2 don’t all like it. Many find it hard to drive. I honestly can’t say. What i can say it my CSR is awaiting its release.
Apparently the madness engine has proven itself in physics tests – but what this actually means i’m not really sure.

Of course you can pass an opinion without it being an agenda.   I just wish certain people would respect that Montoya can post this article on hi own blog without there being an agenda too.   Works both ways.

BTW, for what it’s worth, I agree with you comments about consoles etc.   Unfortunately that’s where the mass market and therefore the money is,  Money that is needed to return the initial investment because it’s not likely the sim community will do that on it’s own.  

 Might I point out, I haven’t yet once whined :). I’ve simply thrown out my two cents as a business owner with an understanding that when you have a connection similar to Montoya’s connection with SMS, you virtually have to act with a bias against the company you work for or else ignorant buffoon Republican-esque people will hound you for anything they can come up with, whether true, previously denounced as false, or blatantly false. I don’t think you guys should be defending yourselves at all, but I do believe you could do yourselves some favors by making the articles about these types of subjects a little more neutral.

That being said… How bout those pCars BMWs? Anyone else as excited as I am to give them babies a whirl??

-Blacker.

 lol so true, minus completely random racially charged remarks and random “you’re a fat ass” type comment drops.

-Blacker.

I shall comment where and as much as I please.  

If I’m tired of it, move on ?   Yeah cos thats how a moderator works.  Oh..I`ll just leave these trolls alone to carry on as they please.    

Time for you to have a break.  Trolls are not welcome here.

Oh don’t go getting all sentimental on me.  What are you suggesting, that I am a gun nut ? And you think that is a good comment ?
So no references to guns or triggers now because of of the incident in Aurora last week.  How do you figure that ?    There’s absolutely no connection here.  My gun is a metaphor in case you hadn’t worked it out.

Right yes i get that. But i’m not slating him for posting it. My inital response that Montoya jumped on was a reply to someone about they ( SMS ) claiming they were the makers of GTR2 and know how to make a sim. I quite simply corrected the guy with what i said. That it was done on a different and well known simulation engine, i.e the gmotor with good results and not the current Madness engine. Also i stated money talks these which you have just said yourself.

So where is the Agenda?

Everyone who has spoke out against pCARS now has an agenda and should not be allowed to comment on a story that SMS want in the public? I have not said he had an agenda. Do i think it’s right that he SHOULD be posting this, well no, not really tbh. It doesn’t look good really does it, an SMS employee trying to dirty a rival company. But as said i don’t care about that. 

Yes, it may be posted elsewhere but guess what? Elsewhere the site owners don’t work for SMS

Your statement that SMS “struggles” with the engine is unsubstantial nonsense and I called you on it.

As far as the agenda goes, I simply can’t take people serious who change their opinions like underwear. You started out as one of pCARS biggest supporters and for no apparent reason you made a 180 degree turn and have badmouthed it ever since..

That is of course your right but please don’t expect people to take you serious anymore because frankly, it’s impossible. 

 There is no one sided view in the article.  There are comments from one side and a line or so from the other.  No accusations were made by Montoya, he simply pasted the quotes from the respective sources.  Montoya/VR has simply made available that which is currently public knowledge elsewhere already.

I am proposing to shoot you ?  Have you lost your mind ?   Mmmm no I don’t think you have.

You want to make a drama out of what I said. Society these days, so sensitive.  It was not a threat to harm you and it is very strange that you even think it is.   What, I’m going to arm myself and find out where you live and come over to end your life and ruin my own ?   This is what you think?  That it was an actual threat ?  Wow.  

Anyway no it wasn’t an actual threat on your life, nor was it sarcasm.    It was a metaphor. My ‘gun’ being my ability to temporarily ban, which seems might be needed here as certain same people just want to troll.

Oh also notice the smiley at the end of that post.   Trust me.  You can sleep sound in your bed.
I have no desire to kill you for making a post which I can quite easily deal with from the comfort of my room.   

Asking me to apologise is illogical.  Because I cannot apologise to you as it wasn’t a threat in the first place (not to your life anyway – but thats been explained now).     If it was a real threat, I`d hardly be apologising now would I ?

Right if they are not struggling then why do they keep changing tyre models? First one was in the words of SMS ” Industry Best ” they then updated that and i presume it’s even more Industry Best and now they are working on the next Industry best? But no they are not struggling?

Again we go back to me not liking pCARS, really as i have said thousands of times now, but it seems to go in one ear and out the other with you and others. I value feel in a simulation, pCARS has no feel and it never felt like they would get that feel, so i gave up. Why is that such a problem and why would that then mean i can no longer be trusted?

 What do you mean they ‘keep changing the tire models’? How should that even work?

id ban me as your moderation skills suck realistically , the guy who just gunned down so many people in the cinema was dressed as the joker so obviously he didnt mean it to be offensive , if you are going to get involved in conversations try taking your arrogant hat of and putting it somewhere else ; if you have an open comment box some people are not going to agree with you but your job is to steer said conversations away from belittling and abusing others not being the instigator …..

 For me, I think your opinion, whatever it might be, if written in a non-trolling way, lets say, has just as much right to be posted and seen and anyone elses.  

But it would become an agenda if posts against something were repeated ad nauseum.  
Not saying you are doing that, just saying how I would class an agenda.   

It’s called evolution… just because an even better tire model is being developed doesn’t mean that the current one is being struggled with. Did ISI struggle with the FFB in rFactor just because rF2 does have a more advanced model?

According to you pCARS doesn’t feel right and never will… but still you`re knocking SMS for improving the tire model?! There’s absolutely no consistency to what you`re saying, you`re just ranting… and that’s why you can’t be taken serious.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with disliking pCARS for whatever reason. But being negatively obsessed with it and ranting against SMS at every possible chance you find, that’s what I call an agenda.

No no no, stop right there. Trying to put words in my mouth now. I’m not knocking them, i merely gave you a reason as to why i said they are struggling with the engine. Point of my post is. It was said and quite loud and proud at the start that the pCARS tyre model was in his words Industry Best. If it’s industry best then why is constantly being changed and a brand new model introduced? Again fair play for trying to do a new model, i’m not knocking that, i’m just saying they struggle to get a good feeling simulation with the engine they use. Which quite clearly if you have to totally revamp your industry best tyre model, then you quite clearly are struggling and maybe you didn’t have quite as best as you thought.

erm….comment section is officially what ?    Tame the language please.  I dunno if you can say that then complain about the trolls in the same breath :)

I would play candy-man but I am trying to avoid that and be patient with people.   It backfires of course because then I’m ‘argumentative’, I’m ‘responding to every post’ and even though I’m not handing out bans like candy, instead preferring to talk it out, I’m still the bad guy.   Oh well, I knew when I got into this it wasn’t going to be a popularity contest.

Congrats for not whining :)  That comment is for those that do.

I always know this is one of your posts when I read the word ‘buffoon’  :)  Classic.

So apart from copy/pasting the quote from both parties, how do you suggest the article could be made more neutral ?   Bearing in mind this is all the info available at the time.

Yes… can’t wait to try the pCARS Beemers !   Maybe we (‘we’ meaning us pCARS users btw – just to avoid any unecessary confusion) will get a couple of free Porsches out of this too, heh.

You should step out of your shoes and maybe look at this without the view that some big corporate is trying to influence the news here.   This really isn’t what some people are trying to make it out to be.   It’s a news article that, while it differs from the normal type of news around here, is still sim racing news.
It seems that news like this (and the iRacing one) – lets call them scandals for want of a better word – isn’t something that a few people here can handle very well without having a drama fit.
Maybe VR should stick to the easy going stuff if this is too heavy for a few to deal with in a more mature way without throwing their toys out of their prams.

Pretty much all of the same members. 

Honestly, I’ve never read so much crud as I have here. What are you trying to prove??

When ‘we’ left SimBin we left with 42 of the then 46 development staff. 90% are still with us. One has retired, 2 have been sacked.

When SMS was formed from Blimey BTW it was 100% of the same dev team. Not a ‘different dev team’. Different name I’ll grant you.

Lets get something straight here.  What happened in Aurora, Colorado was shocking and tragic and I was personally moved as I watched the aftermath on TV.   I think that lunatic should be given the death penalty for what he has done.   
How you have the audacity to compare that with a comment I made about a gun, a comment which was a metaphor, is beyond my understanding.   For how long in your mind should people all over the internet and around the world not mention guns for ?   I guarantee there are people talking about guns all over.  Discussions that have zero connection to the incident in Denver.

This over-sensitive position you are adopting is totally uncalled for and you are way out of line.
That you would suggest that I am being disrespectful to the victims of that incident is ludicrous and extremely insulting.   I let it go with you before precisely because I do find it ludicrous.
Do not stay on this path with me because you are going to a very dangerous place. 
You can slag me off as a moderator, call me whatever names you want or disagree with my comments but don’t you dare suggest that I am being flippant or nonchalant about those that were killed and injured last week.   Just don’t !

Now… how do you suggest I steer said conversations away from belittling and abusing others ?  Tell them to be nice and they`ll get some sweeties ?   ”Please stop that” maybe ?

And check your first post before talking about arrogance.

It’s clear you have an agenda Scorz. As a shrink I’d really like to understand why to be honest. 

Wehen we developed the brush model tyre system it was primarily coded by Eero Pitulainnen. He’d just come fresh off of coding the RBR physics engine. He was confident it was as good a tyre model as could be implemented by him and at the time. I take his word for it and stand by it.

You’re also aware we’re now working hard on a new tyre model. So that would be two we’ve coded in our history. I’m not sure how that makes us failures. Unless we’d lump iRacing in there with their new tyre model. 

We were the makers of GTR2, it isn’t a claim, it’s an absolute fact. We made it as Blimey Games (as above, the same people). We got 2 partial cockpit meshes from the SimBin team we had left. We implemented the other 99.9% 

Again, so much crap posted here.

You should letter bomb our offices. I’ve never heard of such behaviour. A console game designed to work well with pads? We should be ashamed.

If that BSnismo clown isnt repeating his ramblings ad nausaeum, who is ever? Every single thread about Project CARS he rants about the same BS, only ever so slightly changed. On my count he is at ad nausaeum x 3 at least.

More agenda here. We still bloody care mate. Don’t assume we don’t please?? It’s a huge insult to the hard working staff we have.

Right. What i meant was I thought some people left before you’d started the Shift series.

Nope, still the same people.

Ah, well my apologies. I didn’t know that.

How can people like this post? 

So I form SimBin in 2001 as a community mod team. We release three mods, the latter of which (GTR2002) got major magazine reviews and was voted mod of the century in one of them. We did all this for the community, as the community, free and in our own time, at our own expense. 

We then go professional and ship a sim every year for three years before changing names and working with EA.

Yes, really rich of me. 

What have you done Mike?

 It’s shift again with slightly more sim physics. Cars at least respond and don’t float like they did in Shift. Track rumble strips are soo wrong in a lot of tracks. They need to go down to Road America and see the new curbing changes implemented at the track and take a ton of photos. Yes that madness engine is an eye candy engine and this game belongs on consoles. We know they are competing with GT5 and FM4 more so then the ISI guys, Simbin, Asseto Corsa (Which is equally as gorgous, but i’m sure will destroy Pcars physics) and iRacing.

 (reply to Felix)    There are a lot of strongly opinionated people around.  I cannot complain because I am one of them.

What is it with you guys and agendas, your obsessed. It’s an opinion and one that you don’t like. That’s not my problem i’m afraid. Really it’s frustration more than anything. Me and others know what you did before and so know your are capable of producing a solid simulation. The problem is you are no longer Simbin and you are no longer using that engine. You also at that time had alot more freedom and more of a dedicated audience to please. Your publisher knew that and let you go with what you wanted to produce. You didn’t have to worry about dumbing stuff down for consoles like you do now as a console develper

You as SMS all we have had is the SHIFT series and a flawed Ferrari title. I like many others got behind you as a studio when SHIFT was announced. You promised best this and best that and it would be a proper sim. SHIFT was released and it was a complete failure in terms of a simulation. Maybe not in sales which matter to you but as a simulation which matters to me it was a failure.

SHIFT2 was announced and again we had best this and best that. Most advanced physics engine this and that blah blah….you get the drift. Once again on release and after a while of playing it was clear again as a simulation it was extremely flawed and a failure.

You then announced pCARS on Nogrip and promised not best this time but rather Industry best this and that. Ok, this sounds great, they are interacting with the community, give them a chance. Got the first build and yes it felt fresh and exciting. But each week, month after month, it just did not seem to really move and gain a real decent feel. Having had all this before with SMS and all the best this and that with SHIFT, i just felt like i was wasting my time even bothering with it anymore. Why is that so hard to understand? I mean you as a team really don’t fill me and i presume many others with confidence when it comes to sims. I have seen it all before from you guys with the SHIFT games. Why should i not be allowed to say how i feel about it. If i had an agenda i would be over at RD in the pCARS thread joining the others who sit there stabbing at you.

I simply replied stating that GTR2 was a different era and different engine. But as always as soon as i even mention pCARS i am jumped on.

 We’ll see when your project gets done. I’ll give you that. Fact tho you are going multiplat does not make you game a full blown sim. I’m gonna give you the benefit of a doubt to prove you can roll Pcars alongside of rFactor 2 anad Asseto Corsa. I’am a Pcars investor and do see progress every update. I have the rig to run the alpha at max settings and at Vsync get 60fps. One thing that your engine has a major problem with even run solid 60fps is the horrid bee sounding engine sounds coming from the cars. Same sound in both of your Shift series.

If that is the case, then we have an engine problem here. So many have talked about that and if that could of been fixed in Shift, why didn’t you fix it with a patch. Are we gonna see the same replay product in Pcars. Food for thought.

Anyways you’re gonna have your work cut out to prove to me that this is gonna go back to your stellar work you did on GTR2 with next gen graphics. Till then I support you, but I’m not totally confident.

I’m glad you care. Really.

To say that pCARS hasn’t moved on though is plain wrong. It’s been developing constantly in the area of physics and FFB. We have the first implementation of the new tyre model in early testing from AJ. It’s only the contact patch portion for now but given how advanced it is it does need to be implemented in staged.

I’ve always said we have the most advanced physics engine out there. This is borne out of knowledge of what others are doing. As I’ve posted elsewhere, the last tyre model was developed by Eero who knows what he’s doing and he told me it was as good as it could get. He knows more about it than I do and I take him at his word on it.

You are allowed to say what you feel of course, but do you really need to keep saying it in every post remotely positive towards us?

You don’t like the feel of our current model, that’s your opinion and you’re very entitled to it. But to use that as an excuse to say we’ve failed (as we’re improving it) or that we’re not as good as we’re not using ISI, or that we’re not good as we’re not SimBin, or that we’re not as good as we don’t care, or that we’re not as good anymore as we’ve sold out to console capitalism, etc etc ad nauseam seems a bit OCD on the whole. I’m not sure what more we can do than employ the most talented physics guys in the industry and let them work their magic to improve what we have. I see it as a good thing!

——————————
Montoya quote: “Your statement that SMS “struggles” with the engine is unsubstantial nonsense and I called you on it.

As far as the agenda goes, I simply can’t take people serious who
change their opinions like underwear. You started out as one of pCARS
biggest supporters and for no apparent reason you made a 180 degree turn
and have badmouthed it ever since..

That is of course your right but please don’t expect people to take you serious anymore because frankly, it’s impossible.”
——————————————

Nismo’s position on pCARS likely holds a ton more weight than yours by a country mile, Montoya. You’ve seen to that with unbelievably derogatory posts like those above when you own this blog and work for SMS, it’s quite amazing you even do it. And if his opinion does not hold more weight, it most certainly should. In fact because Nismo’s opinions holds a bit of weight, that’s likely the reason you felt it necessary to post some really shitty stuff above in an attempt to discredit Nismo. I hope the impartial sim community here can see how biased you have become, because it’s not even being hidden any more.

All Nismo said was that SMS appear to be struggling with the engine, i.e, physics, because he played the damn “sim” and can feel it. And I agree with that 100%. Whether SMS are having a struggle internally about the physics or it’s engine is surely not his point at all. It is that if you play the game, you may just find some serious contraditions between what SMS want to you believe this game is, and what it feels like to play. To me, whether SMS think it or not, are discussing it or not, are truly having issues with the Madness engine or not, they ARE struggling to make a next-gen sim in terms of feel, physics, handling.

Disclaimer: I am fully aware it’s an alpha, please don’t use that weak argument on me in a rebuttal.

And for the record, there wasn’t a single person who follows sim racing that wasn’t 100% excited and drooling at the mouth when pCARS first came to the public. I think the fact that Nismo supported pCARS at first and gave it some time before he lost much of the hope for this title we all held on day one, shows that he is a sim racer at heart and just follows the titles that give him a buzz and dont start to decline in longevity and appeal.

That’s my take on this.

I’m just clicking “Like” on anything posted by Ian Bell here. I am not the top pCARS supporter but I am also not a moron with idiotic arguments. I’ve stated the only game I fully intend on buying is Assetto Corsa but I am faithfully waiting for the moment pCARS nears the end of development because I believe they’ll come around on the majority of any shortcomings.

Anyway, it is amazing how difficult it is to properly discuss with some people – even when using facts – as they’ll keep ignoring or overlooking anything that does not match their close-minded view of the world. Please stop littering this site, it used to be pleasant to read most comments. There’s no need to declare war on games when none of the top 3 games coming out late 2012/mid 2013 are anywhere near finished. And you don’t know the future.

We’re developing separately on consoles. PC will use a more advanced physics model (engine). 

We’d be disappointed it we weren’t the best in terms of physics. It’s our main focus. We’d be disappointed if we weren’t the best in all areas actually. As of now I only see iRacing’s stellar network code as something that we might not surpass.

Our engine doesn’t make sounds that would be fmod. Food for thought indeed.

Excuse me but i don’t post in here really i’m afraid, i have kept out of loads of stuff on here. I only post when i see outrageous comments from people. I literally just hover around here these days. bsimracing and Racedepartment offer far more unbiased people than this place does these days. So if you can show me every post on here that i reply or any others where i reply to every positive thing then please do. I am a member at alot of places, GT Planet seems to have a fanboy haven for pCARS, not once have i posted there.  

You say you employ the best physics guys the industry can offer but these guys are working for Kunos and Reiza, so that could be a little awkard. I wish you luck anyway, think your gonna need it. I have not said you have failed btw, i said you struggle with your current engine which to anyone that is not blinded by the very nice graphics will realise. Honestly who would not want you game to succeed seriously? It looks great and so if it also felt great, whats not to like. Problem is with your past as SMS, the chances of you getting both right i just can’t see. But please i would love to be proved wrong and read in 10 months time that it’s feeling great.

Yes, you should be ashamed, because it was horrendous with pads, too :)

Would be nice to see you pop in to threads to talk positive points, not just to fight back dissent towards pCARS, makes you look a bit childish.

I’m really pleased to hear that physics are your priority! I literally just posted on the bmw screenshots news item about how it would be crazy to let mediocre physics spoil a project where attention to detail has been of the highest standard so far! PS its also good of you come here and clear up stories too!

Just another question to you Ian, and you’ll have to excuse my ignorance, If it came to the point where you could not get the tyre model and road feel as you want them with the high standard that you are aiming for, will the engine be rewritten or is it too late for that? I literally have no idea how game engines work so please explain as best you can? I also do not even know whether an engine can restrict how far you could take the tyre model? i understand that the tyre model is only a small part of the picture though too! Thanks!

Hats off to you James you said exactly what i wanted to say but seem to make more sense. I need to work on how i present my opinion so it doesn’t come across as an agenda

ok – time for a group hug!

I find it so insanely bizarre that people actually use platform elitism as an argument, the whole thing just blows my mind really.

I agree here, lets all try to be civil before it hits the fan, or is it to late for that?  Lets just step back and calm down, there’s enough comments in here to make you dizzy! I do have alot of respect for Ian stepping up and out of his site and filling in some blanks. I still have so many fond memories of GTR1 and GTR2, and hope this will reach that level by release.

LukeMaple, I think the forum has ran out of nesting room so I can’t reply to you down there.

We will have time to implement the new tyre model and polish it until it’s right. If it was a disaster we have the backup plan of adding to the current model.

PS, there is a vocal minority who don’t like the feel of our current physics, but a largely silent majority that do. for me the current physics aren’t mediocre. I do though agree with those that say that it’s excessively snappy beyond the limit. That’s the area we could work on if the new physics were a disaster. That and some less understeery default setups would give us a feel up there with the feel of other sims preferred by the vocal minority.

The latest builds of pCARS feel great IMO. Soem cars still aren’t polished physically of course. 

I’m not everyone with a bald head, honest :)

May all of us be wearing deodorant

I am replying to others. If they’re asking me questions. I’m also righting wrongs.

I don’t give a toss what you think of me BTW.

In car the engine sounds are great. Replay mode, I gotta turn the sound right down. I’ve seen it in Both shifts before. I have NEVER heard such poor engine sounds in replay mode as in you Shift series and now Pcars. From a guy on YT who wants to show some Pcars racing footage, it has to stay in the cockpit mode throughout.

It is a problem and a modding team correcting it like the mods you can get for your shift series in the NoGrip forums is not saying much for your mainstream developers.

Fix that in Pcars and prove me wrong. As I said again, my rig can handle everything thrown at it maxed out. I’d hate to hear from people in the WMD forums that it’s my PC when even on the PS3 version of Shift 2, I experienced the exact same thing.

Theres no doubt about it Ian. You guys are leading the way for the next gen of graphics. All fine and dandy. Just remember that physics comes first. And last of all. Please don’t rush your project to Gold. Don’t go there. The funding of people coming onboard with the project is still coming (Even tho some time ago you said that you reached your Quota for members coming onboard and you would be closing down the investing oppurtunity). And lets not see a Pcars 1, 2,3, Forza every 2 years.. No thanks. Lets see a ongoing project with new builds, tracks, and, cars. I’m more then happy to pay for DLC if it’s top quality. Forza is just getting sooo repetitive with a new game (not sim) every 2 years with a few new features added like EA does with their sport line, and carpacks with 2 great cars and the rest rubbish. Please stay away from following any of Turn 10′s pathetic arcade games marketing schemes..

Best of luck.

emphasis on “feel”.

im not the one that has jumped down everyones throats as soon they have an opinion that differs from yours , your stance and rhetoric are both belligerent and argumentative and behind that is that you have a better argument it is that you carry the rod of power …. brilliant dictator material lousy moderator 

emphasis on “agenda”.

I think you put your opinions across very well actually. For me what stands out is you always post negatively about us; use straw man arguments; assume fait accompli; never join in on any of the positive posts etc. 

What gets me as a shrink though is that you are intelligent and seem to care a lot (to post so passionately and so often) yet you won’t accept that we will improve things iteratively as has always been the intention.

In reply to your post below about the best physics guys being elsewhere. You couldn’t possibly know this, as we don’t. Our new physics coding guru’s are just that, new. We’ve yet to see what they’re capable of. I’ll say that AJ seems to know his stuff though and I’m confident in his abilities, ably led by Steve Dunn, with Doug Arnao and Casey Ringley polishing the handling attributes. 

Bed. Made. You. Sleep. In. It.
“We don’t need crap like this in our community.”

Indeed.

Nor anywhere else.

Thanks for the reply, Good to hear about that, I trust you to get it right, to me it doesn’t feel as good as some of the competition yet because i don’t feel attatched to the car, It may have nothing to do with tyre model of course, i’m not an expert. Maybe i should log into the forum and see if someone can help me out there! An example of the mediocre physics is how you can slide the Formula A into a corner like a drift car. his may have changed because i haven’t tried in a number of builds to be honest! like I say I trust you to get it right and I really want the game to be incredible. There’s a long way to go yet. I’m a perfectionist and do not shy away from speaking my mind and I appreciate you taking time to answer me!

As he’s not the one coding physics etc of course he’s talking about the “feel” of it.
Like every racedriver or simdriver mostly just talks about how the physics “feel”.
yeah… let’s start a semantics battle next to the physics battle. *facepalm*

 Both you and BSNismo out of all have made the most sense and your opinions supported by me as well at this point.

I follow BSNismo a ton on YT and in some of the forums. I have very little time to be in all of them. BSNismo is truly known by the community and his work with ISI with testing new mods and tracks is very immpressive with me.

You can tell this guy is a hardcore sim racer and a dam good driver. ISI are at the top when it comes to physics. Kunos as well. I’m a fan of those developers. Race car drivers are as well.

Yes you can pay a driver to say your sim is the best like iRacing which clearly has not the greatest tire model at all. Netcode amazing. Paying a driver means squat. I don’t think either ISI nor Kunos or simbin for that matter have payed any drivers to rah rah their products. They don’t have to.

Know that was a bit off topic, but I truly agreed with your input on behalf of Nismo.

Yes, I hear you on the F1. You’d be surprised how many complain on the forum that it’s too snappy, too difficult though.

We have a year to implement and polish the new model which is already well progressed. I suspect it will allow us to make the cars more neutral, with less effort spent on working around limitations.

in response to Ian (no reply button next to you post for some reason).

I’m very sure that Nismo, and myself for that matter, will speak up if and when these changes and improvements take place. I for one will be surprised if you pull it off by the way, i don’t have much faith in the way you work these days. But if you do, I’ll certainly be saying improvements were made and be happy to see them, it won’t dissolve a lot of weird statements, weird posts and the way you hired members of the community who had outlets and power to curb opinion (if that was your intention I don’t know), I’ll be remembering that for a long time to come, and your aggressive posts all over the web when you get angry, too.

What is this shrink stuff? Saying something like this implies immediately you think something is psychologically off or interesting here with those saying they don’t like pCARS and have passionate responses. Can you please stop that. It’s underhand and intentional, and exactly the sort of thing SMS get a bad rep for when connecting with the community of racers who do not agree with you.

 Forget the agenda. We all will just sit back and see if SMS can deliver. I hope the best for them on Pcars cause if this turns out to be a flop, they won’t see a nickel from me ever again. I’ll stick with the ISI’s, Kuno’s, Reiza, and Simbin (Which in GTR3 looks very promising and i’m loving their quiet stance on their project).

Ian, when pcars were announced you had all sim community at your feet. Literally.

The makers of GTR2, coming back to hardcore sims with amazing graphics and listening to the community? That was a dream.

But the builds have not reached such expectations. Yes, you have improved quite a lot since the first one. It´s not bad right now, it´s just that…there are some sims better: Iracing, rfactor2, Game Stock Car…

Do you really think people wants that pcars fail? No, it´s just, right now, many people think is not good enough.

And I´m still playing every build I can (junior member) and expecting the best.

At the end, do you know why I´m a little hopeless? Because you want to sell 10 million copies of pcars (I think I readed that) but I don´t think a hardcore sim can sell that number of copies.
Unfortunately, I think it´s not possible.

Best wishes with pcars.

@JamesonDuvel:disqus I can’t reply to you either.

If I can get Scorz to invest 1/10th of the effort in promoting us when we make the improvements that are coming then I’ll be happy. I look forward to your responses also :)

On the aggressive posts. I don’t think I’m particularly aggressive, just direct. I’m actually a very caring person. My staff tell me off, speak their mind to me and are very loyal. That doesn’t happen to an aggressive person. I am though passionate about righting bull that’s posted by a minority in the community about our company and our work. I don’t give much of a toss if people rib me personally. I’m completely anti-corporate and don’t see why I should behave like a robotic automaton because I’m a CEO. These are games and they’re supposed to be fun. Also, I am part of this community, always have been and suspect I might keel over while I still am. I don’t see why running a company should mean I don’t engage on forums. Given that, I don’t see why I shouldn’t be myself when I do. 

On the shrink stuff, there’s no negative agenda here. I really am interested. My PhD was in Human Computer Interaction and how emotions and motivations are affected by computer based discussions. Scorz made some of the best videos of our work yet. His vids brought people to pCARS, we promoted him in thanks. He then did an about turn ‘despite the fact that our current product is very WIP’. That’s simply interesting to me. As is the lack of anything positive posted regarding us, the liking of anything negative etc etc. PS, I’ve only mentioned this to BSNismo so I would appreciate you don’t accuse me of thinking anyone with a negative opinion of pCARS is psychologically damaged. That would be insane :) You also shouldn’t assume that I use the word psychology with any negative connotation. Only a subset of psychology interests itself in that area.

On curbing opinion and hiring members of the community to facilitate this, well, hand on heart and Rob can confirm I’ve never asked him to post anything on our behalf, to delete a post, to favour us. I’ve known Rob from well before WMD got going and I wanted the best moderators I could find for our ‘very busy forum’. Nothing more than that. Rob was one of the two I thought would moderate things well.

 I just sent you a like for your comment. Elitism? I take it you are a Forza fan am I right? Friend I own both a PS3 and 360. I actually love the GT series on the PS3. Hell the man races real cars on the side. You heard what Ian said about the PC being totally different. Face it. Consoles at this gen in time cannot handle the graphics nor the physics coding like PC’s do. Fact. We’ll see in the next gen and i’m sure the next gen of consoles will have the muscle to pull it off. Till then, the real sims along with physics will always be on PC. All I will say and have to say about your elitism statement.

Look forward to it! best of luck! Will keep trying the builds every now and again to see how its coming along! Any news as to when you will begin scanning the MSV circuits?

The builds have not reached such expectations… yet.

I’d maybe start to worry if pCARS was three months from release, but it’s a long way off. I’ve seen the enthusiasm and talent that the SMS staff have from their progress posts on the forums, and I trust them to get the job done in the end. You just need patience, these big improvements will keep coming throughout the next year of development.

@google-9c59b75570cff9384ebc17774fca4429:disqus 
Can’t reply to your post.

I see what you mean.

The application layer code we apply on top of the fmod base is particularly crap in replays yes. It’s been doing my head in for 6 years. I’m insisting it’s massively improved for pCARS. To be fair, we have one audio coder who also doubles as an app/gameplay coder for other areas and he’s been overtasked. Probably my fault actually. Beyond the 50cc vespa sound the stuttering and staccato nature of it is annoying in the extreme.

@ Ian Bell – The reason i do not comment on subjects that you view as positive, is because i don’t view them as positive. Most of the news here and other places is regarding new content or graphics, they don’t interest me. Physics and FFB interest me and i don’t see any positive comments from people i have known in this community for a long time that feel like do in terms of how a sim should feel.

80% of comments on here IMO should be taken with a pinch of salt regarding pCARS physics as it’s become a WMD part 2 on here..

There is no agenda against you. I play GSC2012, RF2 and am looking forward to AC. If pCARS felt good i would also be racing that. I love sims but they must feel right.

I don’t see anything wrong with the article tbh, except for that ISI part with the quote, no one can confirm that except ISI  or automaniax, therefore placing the quote on the article add nothing to the context, just poinless guessing IMO.

Very soon now. Probably after the summer hols when we’re fully staffed again. We’re also researching something new that might give us a better result than laser scanning, hence us holding off for now.

You are going to have to learn to reply without the insults.  That is trolling and not allowed here.

By replying to people you cannot just assume I am jumping down peoples throats.  You think the same is not happening back to me ?     I take from people just as much as I give out, if not more because I am not stooping to insults, or at least trying my best not to.   People such as you on the other hand don’t do that and have insult laced posts that are over-dramatic and ill thought out.  And you expect me not to argue that ?    
I have my opinion on this matter like everyone else and will express just as much as anyone else.    It is unfair to label me just because I happen to be the moderator ?  
Would you like the job ?  I`ll quite happily be a plain member again.  Let off my leash and see how calm and polite you would be after dealing with so many argumentative trolls day after day.

If I was a dictator, don’t you think you’d be banned by now after your outbursts ?   Others too.
Posts deleted also.     Yet they are not gone and neither are you.    I have argued with you because you brought up a sensitive subject and in my opinion you crossed the line there.
If anything I am soft on people who argue.  Look up this page, there are arguments going on without my input.  Yet you single me out. Why ?  Because I’m the moderator.
Oh you want me to set an example ?  Is that it ?    
You really think that me being all nice, flexible, polite and kind is going to influence the trolls to do the same ?    Really ?    Not a chance.      I am strongly opinionated, I will stand my ground and I will argue my case.  I will also chat will people who post stuff I might not agree on. Not everyone on every subject, but sometimes.   I will praise stuff when I think its merited like I did with some recent mod and track releases.   But I will try to do this, as with this post, without insult, foul language or personal attack.  This is my aim.   I happen to be pretty effective at debating without the need to resort to that.  Maybe that sticks in peoples craw, I don’t know. 
But if I’m pushed or targeted and it is unwarranted,  I will push back.  Bank on it.    

You will get out of me what you give.  You be respectful and I will do the same.  It works both ways.  What I will not tolerate is people who want nothing more than to troll, flamebait and argue.  Sometimes I give them an argument because that is what they seek.  Oh but they don’t like that.   Suddenly I’m the bad guy.

I’m actually very reasonable.  If I wasn’t, this reply to you would be far more devastating, trust me.

You want to question me as a moderator, go ahead.  I don’t answer to you and you still have to deal with it.  You want to target me because I am a moderator, expect a reaction and don’t complain when you get one.

Oh and to finish off and show you I can be reasonable… after giving it some thought, I will admit that I could have used a better metaphor than I did.  Clearly some people are still overly sensitive at the mere mention of the word gun after what happened last week. Personally I don’t connect the two because there is no connection between my comment and the incident in Denver.  I don’t see why it should upset anyone because the two things are not related, but despite this, some people bizarrely connect my comment with a guy who murdered 12 and injured 50 others.  I find that nuts and I think I was unfairly spoken to because of it.  However, I will apologise for upsetting those that got upset but I don’t have any compassion for those that chose to get upset over it. Especially considering how they chose to react to me.   I think it is a silly connection to make and that is purely my own opinion.

We’ve barely started.

1 million copies.

Not reached ‘your’ expectations.

Ian, I feel a big pain when you say that “….a largely silent that do.” Don’t say that, cause you know it’s not the true. As a team, keep focused in the solution for this issue cause it will not be salable in this conditions.

Honestly, good luck SMS. You need to make a very competitive sim for this growing market, and I really would love it.

After 220 comments, allot has become clear to me… and it has noting to do with the topic at hand. :-)

Isn’t it about time to close this topic?  Its wrecking more than it contributes. 

And it is making the entire sim scene look like a bunch of childish fools. 

That cant be the purpose of a news report? .   or is it just me …

 Well maybe so, but it was just a direct quote from Ian who stated that it was just his opinion.  He’s entitled to that    It’s clear to see that it was just conjecture and not a statement of fact. 
It’s not that the quote was placed there as an afterthought.  It was part of the whole thing from Ian.
There’s so much pointless guessing been shoved SMS’s way too what with this article and pCARS as a whole.   I think we can allow him one back. :)

thankyou for your long post which has enlightened me in so many ways ; nearly every post of yours in this whole subject is the same so i shall close my post here politely and say thankyou for taking the time to prove my point 

 I don’t think it’s intended as a hardcore sim.  At least not in the same terms as iRacing, AC, rF2 (wasn’t it meant to better Forza/GT5 ?) and 10 million copies might be wide of the mark.

We`ll likely have a more clear picture of where this is going for the hardcore sim-racer when the 2nd tyre model is implemented.   My guess will be some will like it and others will not because they expect it to be the next iRacing.   Thats a safe bet :)

 Ah yes,   “Burnin’ Rubber – deoderant for the hardcore simmer”     No wait, thats the condoms.

Funny how you’re all attacking SMS and pCARS for various reasons. Sure you don’t have to love pCARS for whatever reason you may have.

But how is this about the realism of pCARS? Automaniax didn’t pay for the work that SMS did for them. They wanted their engine, their assets and hoped to get it for free? Sorry this is just messed up. And anyone supporting them or their way of dealing with their “partners” is as least as messed up as some of those Automaniax guys.

Sounds great! :D

Im not really going to argue with you, but just so you know I only own a PC so I cant really comment on either Forza or GT.

Just to be on topic (I am a bad guy!):
How is this NOT sim related and important news? Almost everyone loves to see Porsches in their favorite racing game. Probably many sim racers, me too, registered over at Automaniax to see what they got. I am glad to hear about their behaviour and we as a sim community, if you like pCARS/SMS or if you don’t, should make clear that stealing and strange/illegal business methods are not the kind of stuff we support.
You think this is unimportant? Gz to you, guys who think that way are the reason gaming in general is on a very dangerous path and companies like EA make the big money although their customer support sucks, games are cut down into 10 DLCs and they destroy one once famous franchise after another. But hey… all we want is just gaming, don’t bother us we the unpleasant things behind this. Shut up and take my money.
Everyone grow up who thinks this way.

 lol them Porsches would be nice, wouldn’t they?

I would have figured the random Republican bash drop would have made me stand out like a sore thumb hehe.

The only issue that makes me able to see why some people might take these articles the wrong way is very specific language, which I pointed out in response to the previous article. It’s very, very simple things, and frankly as an English college graduate, I understand how to read them and can take Montoya away from the words(apparently that’s something that is an acquired taste of sorts lol). I would literally need to go through and analyze the whole thing for you, because no one word changes anything without context. I’d be more than happy to if you’d think it would help :).

I know the unfortunate predicament Montoya is in. As a PC system builder, when someone asks me about a brand name system, it’s really tough to disconnect myself from my work to give a reliable statement on the work of others. Now obviously, Montoya’s predicament 1) isn’t of his making and 2) is in quite a bit of a different spectrum than mine… But it’s still a tough position to be in and a commend you guys for consistently sticking with this and standing up for yourself. It’s nice to see Ian standing up for himself as well.

How about that dynamic cloud engine?? I swear I’m going to try to keep part of this on topic!!

-Blacker.

 Hardcore doesn’t mean anything.

Driving a car, even a racing car has never been hardcore…

 Pretty much possible if you make a good game around the hardcore sim. Just add enough features, funtions, filters and aids for gamepads and beginners and you will sell a lot.

Do you know why rFactor, iRacing and others don´t sell much? Because they are “boring” for being games and show the world of motorsport in a damn dry way.

How can people like this post?
————————————————

Eight accounts of himself.

Does it matter what engine they use? Important is, that they have experience, and not just a little. Surprise, surprise…they´ve build their own engine and not using any conventional. So what now? New engine= fail?

Pretty cool. Let´s have an Automaniax-news every week. So we can keep the gaming-news clean and shovel all the mess over here.

 iRacing isn’t boring. I had more fun with it in 4 days than in months in other sims… It’s just too expensive for many.

sue or not to sue that is the ?

I have been very impressed with the development of pCARs from week to week!  Not many companies are willing to develop a game in an open forum as critical as this one is!

Someone actually stated “I’m really enjoying SIMBIN’s Silent Game Development Approach”  Hello, WTF this is the way folks have always developed games until SMS.

It’s not a matter of who develops in secret or not. As you said, it’s the first time so I would be impressed too with something I didn’t know. For some guys, it doesn’t matter at all. The only thing that counts is the final release….is that good or it will be replaced next year by a game with new replections on the hood?
If I really “need” the expectators opinions about my game, I wouldn’t ask any payment for their help….But I don’t create games and can’t judge anybody.

Seeing how this is now a SMS / pCars thread, they can be summed up as this.

“What have you done for me lately?”

Yea.

But anyways… I wonder though how much of a case a company with very good lawyers could make against SMS – yes, against – given how absurdly close many of the cars currently in pCars are to actual cars. Such as the A4 DTM and R18 from Audi, who is part of the VW group, who owns a very large chunk of Porsche. I could see this getting sticky on both ends.

I can’t believe that some guys are ready to discuss about pCARS with Ian Bell in such a manner, like they are defending their own mother, not some sim or engine or whatever.
Ian Bell came here willing to talk about nearly everything, replying in detail, and at the end he is wasting time on guys who throwing tantrum.
Honestly, we can only thank Ian on his devotion to explain everything! I can’t remember that any sim developer is community active like Ian.

I think it’s a bit of a jump to assume what those who remain silent on the project think of it…

Little correction, It’s the Porsche that owns large chunk of VW not other way around ;)

 Also keep in mind that there is a majority who download the build each friday, try to drive a couple of cars and feel that there are still alot of physics/ffb issues and just wait till the week that follows because we all read the messages about the new tire model, and improved physics, and what not coming up.
And while I agree that just driving around feels good, as soon as you go over the limit of any of the tires, be it under or oversteer, and the engine goes completely fubar :(

As soon as that part of the engine is fixed I’ll prolly become a more active member of the community & project but the driving and pushing cars to the limit (at the moment) feels more like work because you can’t do in by feel and have to drive 100% by trial and error.

Anyway, much of luck with the project

I’m not a lawyer but pCARS hasn’t been released so they’d have no case, as of now. One parent company having two different companies linked to each other via the parent connection doesn’t mean much either as both AUDI and Porsche have their own board members, etc. 

McDonald’s owned Chipotle, Pret-a-Manger, and a couple of other companies. It means nothing.

 Actually.. VW owns Porsche ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen

BRB..  getting some more popcorn..  this is some of the funniest (if not saddest) stuff I’ve seen in ages..

Looks like these popcorn posts are trending nicely.

 Mike– what’s a bit ridiculous is your reference to bigfoot and believing Bell.  You can be 44 years old but stuck at 18 or you can actually learn and grow throughout all 44.  Your comments are leaning toward the former, unfortunately.

 Not released, yet actively selling their product.

And you are being silly if you don’t think that one companies dealings may have an effect on a closely related company under the same umbrella.

 #PoppinCorn

 Javier– I appreciate your balanced post and considerate tone/language.  

I think you have an insight here that many people suffer from… they can’t reconcile pCARS is in development and has a full year to go.  Most gamers’ experience is with betas that are pretty much polished by the time they are released.  Or demos that release just before being published.  pCARS is a very different story– they opened things up early with an engine that needed a lot of work on it. There has been a number of people that think… well, I played 5, 10 or 20 builds and it is not as good as other sims on the market in every aspect so it has no hope. Compounding this issue is the graphics.  The graphics are getting better too but they came out the gate as better than any other sim by a significant margin so many people subconsciously assume the whole thing must be at the same advanced stage.

I think this is an understandable but unfortunate reaction. Software development takes time. I have seen big strides in pCARS so far and think if that pace continues (not lightning fast but certainly very steady) that there is a lot of hope that it will be pretty fantastic. No one knows for sure where it will end up of course but I and many other pCARS users are bullish (positive).

But the naysayers often act like they have a crystal ball and know where the development will end up– particularly if they bought Shift and somehow felt betrayed by it— as if someone from SMS came over and shot their dog.  It really is hard to fathom some of the negative emotion that comes from a video game…..

 Luke… Microsoft is a publicly owned company.  Shareholders own it, and for the risk of their investment they want a return on their money. It has nothing to do with Bill Gates or Paul Allen… they are shareholders just millions of others are– except wealthier of course.  On  top of that, Bill Gates has pledged almost all of his fortune to go to his charitable foundation– really a model of charitable giving in many ways.

Marx espoused a completely fair system and it sounded good, until it happened in real life and was an utter disaster…. but I guess this is off topic. :)

 It is true you weren’t the only one reacting.  I disagree this isn’t neutral.  It is neutrally reporting the one side of the story that is available.  There is a difference. He’ll post the other side when it comes to light.

 Thiago– For most people I agree that the final game is all that counts. For the people involved as outsiders in WMD, it is also a fascinating behind the scenes look into the game development process and a chance to be involved in at least a minor way with that development.

 I disagree with your assessment of the current state of the physics. I have seen good progress although it can vary with any individual car as things get changed between builds. The Lotus 49 is a good example– massive changes recently to that car with the last few builds. It was really crazy for awhile but has just made a major hurdle with the last build or so and is starting to feel much better.

But most of our (sim racer) opinions are based upon personal preference so I certainly don’t deny your own experience with it or how you process that experience into what you think feels good.

 Perhaps Ian is referencing the fact that there are many, many positive users posting in the WMD forums every day but they do not actively go out on other forums and start positive threads.  Thus they are silent externally to the WMD process but known to be positive on the sim.

Thanks for the info about Automaniax, Project Cars, and Porsche in this matter. I personally will not be supporting a company with shenanigan ethics IF that is the case. I own many driving games/sims and may consider buying from Automaniax, so I like being informed about about these things.
Hay Ian you and the crew keep up the good work, love how PCars is progressing.

 And those licensing contracts are in work as you should have noticed like with the former Leonus cars, now being official Lotus ;)

SMS said, they are petty ok with their current designs and you need to change three to for details/ parts of the car to look different and then you should be on the safe side.

I don´t know what you guys have with your useless “console” argument. You know that Richard Burns Rally is STILL the most realistic rally sim on PC? But you also know, that you can play it on console? What makes you think that a sim developed for several plattforms is automatically worse than a pure PC-sim? If the PC is th lead platform and the PC-version uses more advanced technologies than the console version, you can´t use your argument of “being multiplatform = being dumped down”.

You know how console ports work in this case? Developing the PC-version as good as you can and afterwards dumping down THE CONSOLE PORT to fit the console performance….nothing else (same with Crysis 2). That´s the advantage, if you have an engine, which makes this possible.

indeed, but it would be more appropriate to get Ian himself commenting about it (wich he did eventually). I just meant that part kinda felt uncalled for IMO, compared to the rest of the informative article. 

Just pointing that out because it kinda made,even if unintentionaly, the article a tad biased. (No offense to the poster, just a constructive observation)

It isn´t boring for what it offers, of course -> driving and racing. But if you want to impress more than five people, you should come with more than a good multiplayer code and top notch physics.

if I remember rightly porsche wanted to do the sneaky and buy a piece of VAG, but they overstretched and couldn’t afford it in the end, so VAG turned around and bought a piece of them instead.

well, considering how much your milano track is different and worse than the real Monza track, I think you really need something new..a miracle, can I suggest?

btw, I think Automaniax was unfair with SMS and with the community, using a promotional video that shows stuff that -probably- they will never use, and considering the greatness of your graphics engine, whatever they will use will not meet the expectations they raised with that video. They underestimated how the simracing community takes in consideration this kind of things.
Anyway, I’ve read your comments and my 2 cents are that you did very, very good things in the past with GTR. Then you and Simbin have taken different paths. They have released honest simulation products, you have released 2 simularcade and the next Ferrari Legends that is a recycled game developed 4 years ago (delayed 3-4 times, until now: it’s expected to be very succesful, considering previews I’ve seen..).  But there isn’t anything wrong with it.  The point is that I don’t believe you. If words are important, your credibility about your capability and wish to produce a SIMulation is over with Shift, that was expected to be “much more better than GTR”.  I can agree that EA didn’t agree and they gave the game another direction. But you tried, and re-tried with Shift 2, to ride the wave in the community, with fake statements.  And you didn’t stop:
http://www.virtualr.net/project-cars-sign-ups-likely-to-be-closed-soon
tic-tac-tic-tac
nice move to squeeze money out, do you?  And what about the best physics ever? how can you tell this, if you aren’t be able to do it in last 4-5 years, and if you don’t know what your competitors are doing right now? Just because you have joined a ‘GURU” of physics’ and he told you he will do the job, then you assume you will get the best physics ever? LOL
I’m sorry about what AM did with that video, that’s wrong.  Choice to produce for them a build without any contract has been your decision, you bet and you loose, and here we know just your side of the story, because AM and/or Porsche until now have choosen an higher profile than you. It could be interesting to know WHY they will not use your technology (maybe they are waiting for your “physics guru” do the job? lol) . But when you trying to teach any other ethic lessons, well, that’s fun. 

Yeah,… I know… it was selfish and didn’t made too much sense in the end… Doesn’t happen to often that I click the “post” button. Usually I delete the hole text after writing and move on… lol… take care :)

This site is crazy. First you won´t get unbiased reviews due to the PCARS connection, now we even have the Boss in here screaming to everyone that doesn´t agree that they have some kind of agenda. 

Bsim here i come, this place has officialy went down the pipe as anything remotely unbiased. 
Montoya great job shooting yourself in the foot, all credibility is now GONE.

Bell, keep up the SALES TALK

You are one of the worst members here at VirtualR (one ban and several warnings confirm this) and for sure one of the most active when it comes to critizising pCARS and talking bad about it. You’d better be quiet with what you write about the platform, it´s owner and the comments, since you are nothing better.

And to be honest: I think Wix wouldn´t be happy to see you on BSimracing if you are acting the same way you do here.

You sure is not a lawyer then :p

I’ve been holding off my judgement waited for Automaniax respond to this matter, but their latest statement is very unconvincing and didn’t address the accusation directly.  With this I’m sure about 75% Automaniax did something they shouldn’t do. 
@Ian Bell, unless you really understand law, it may be good if you refrain from making any comments regarding Automaniax and let the lawyers work.. you know how BLIND law is, I’m just worry that some of your comments could backfire. 

Stating facts in response to questions that can all be defended when there is no contract in place can’t cause us problems.

I also took legal advice from the best game lawyers in the country prior to answering. 

We’re not actively selling any product. We’re offering member access ‘during development’. We’re also actively chasing all licenses. 

There is no other way to develop a game than choose what tracks/cars you want to include and go about licensing them. If we waited the 6 months or more some of those license negotiations take we’d not have a game. As an additional security we’ve renamed everything during the pending licensing phase. Our product will be released next year.

Good to know.. I wish SMS all the good then

SEE YA!

Maybe, but I note on the WMD forums:

Members 65,607 Active Members 18,010 

There are no doubt a lot of silent and happy users. I’d wager there are also a lot of users who put their money in and haven’t been overly enamoured with what they have seen so far.

I’m increasingly tempted to just ignore the whole thing until release and see what I think at that point; if I like it, great, if not, then I’m sure I’ll get over it. Either way I’ll avoid all the bullshit in the meantime!

I agree with you
Is this about SMS or pCars, maybe it was better to keep this behind closed doors untill things are sorted out.

Would you mind passing some this way?

Do you want to buy some magic beans Ian?

“We’re not actively selling any product.”
Hah, good luck with that line. Aside from the distinction you make being pretty meaningless guff, the game has clearly been sold to a lot of people, these so-called ‘full members’

The irony., of course, is that the guys you’re complaining about aren’t actively selling any product either.

This discussion is making a elephant out of a mouse.

AX used footage owned by SMS in a small trailer.  that’s all there is to it.  
If they did not have the legal right, all will be solved by 1 simple lawyer.  End of discussion,.. under normal circumstances. 

For some reason, however, people feel the urge to make complete fools of themselves, by putting on their internet hero costumes, and cram out the biggest pile of nonsense  you ever have seen on a forum. 

I am 46 years old now, and had the opportunity to be involved in both Gaming and Real world Racing adventures through the years, and i can assure all in here that there are a great deal of people ( who you might respect ) laughing about the fact that we now look like the biggest grown up community of little ignorant children, ever seen on a web discussion.  

Its really sad.  The majority probably realizes that allot of the contributors in reality ” Do not give a F**K”  but actually enjoy playing ” mister interesting” on the web. 

Common people…   lets grow up again, so we can play as children , in the good sense of the word.

This discussion is only wrecking things. nothing more. Things we say we love for that matter.

What a bunch of Hypocrites we all are , aren’t we? I bet you 60% of everyone in here has illigal software on their system, but yet we try to defend a legal rights matter to the bone, while we claerly dont have a clue what we are talking about.   This makes me sad. 

Let the law do what they are there for. it will resolve itself with minimal damage for both parties.   its that simple.  

My two pennies…  flame me for it if you like. ( it might make you feel good ) 

Wix,

Hey Michael. You’re far to much of an accomplished troll for me to even try to banter with you. 

Your tweets are fun reading BTW. I suspect if you met me in person we’d get on very well. Either that or I’d spank your arse. The best friendships are a little like that I always feel.

I’m a ‘so-called “full member”‘ and I don’t understand why you think something shady is going on there. I’ve spent much more time enjoying new weekly builds, testing, and watching the game develop in the last 10 months than I did with Codemasters F1 2011.

Please stop thinking that what’s going on in the WMD Portal is a bad thing. The vast majority of us are loving it and looking forward to every Friday. Those who don’t can get a refund.

I don’t fault SMS for the way things are going with public opinion and pCARS. I am stunned, frankly, by the way people have been reacting to a work in progress. I’ve learned a lot about the sim community by watching pCARS progress and I’m not impressed [with us]. I thought we were intelligent enough to not devolve into YouTube-level comments on every pCARS thread here or at RD but I was wrong…VERY wrong.

I support all devs who make sims and racing games in general. If I don’t like the final product I don’t buy it. The more sims the better, for me.

Agreed 100%. Unfortunately your post will not change a thing. Most people these days love how they can abuse the “security” of the internet to act like children and insult others or be tough guys.

Put all these internet know it all’s in a room together in real life and i guarantee things will be a lot more quiet.

“Right if they are not struggling then why do they keep changing tyre models?”

They don’t keep changing tyre models. There has been NO change of tyre model. There will be ONE change of tyre model eventually. I think you know that, hence your claim need to be ponted out as what it is; a lie.

“…Which quite clearly if you have to totally revamp your industry best tyre model, then you quite clearly are struggling and maybe you didn’t have quite as best as you thought.”

Others are changing tyre models too – e.g. iRacing. You see, I reckon both iRacing and SMS are actually doing /development/. Having the state of the art “something” does not men it can’t be improved upon, and I applaud new research anbd development in this area.

Anyone want some?

 298

To be fair, no one with pCARs has it illegally :LOL:

 (reply to below)  You never had a point to begin with.

“dump the consoles” That has to be the most silly thing I have ever seen. How on earth do you think SMS, CODEMASTERS, ECT will be here in 2 years time with out the 1000.000.000′s of copies they will sell world wide. 

This is one thing that some people the sim world seem to think they have more of a right to a game.

 Lets define some thing right away shale we. A “simulation” is a game that simulates some thing in the real world how ever deep it may be. GT5 and forza are sims as is shift, Wrc and many others. it does not mater if it is arcade it is still a sim because it simulates driving a car that’s it.

Look it up and it will tell you that.

You have 2 ways to go about gaming buy the game or don’t its simple. Do not sit there telling others how it should be this or do it like this. You have no idea what has to go into any type of games and no idea what is said behind closed doors.

Now get a grip PLEASE 

The news are controversial and also the presense of sms CEO ian bell here helped it reach so many comments, actually, while i’m not a PCARS  or Sms enthusiast, kudos for him to discuss his game with the community here, its hard to see a CEO in that position.

 I have no illegal software. :)-

Shame on AX using illegal footage.

Mentioning your age hurt more than it helped. It would be nice if your posts reflected your age group.

Gaming Company is still THE Company. There are adult’s people working there with good grades and great experience and it’s something worth to pay on the work market. And they have families, kids and households so they work for money. And in every company there need to be cashflow to achieve progress. There must be a lot of money for workers etc. And business is business. If someone is using your work to profit then it pisses you off. Sorry Community but I think you’re are acting like kids. Automaniax showed us some of SMS’s work. But I still think it’s better idea to spend more money for game, more licenses, cars and tracks than on fighting on courts.

New comment record?

 ”And those licensing contracts are in work as you should have noticed like with the former Leonus cars, now being official Lotus ;)”

well, you can wonder how this can be a simulation, if you reproduce a car before, and then you ask the license for it. how do you collect related data? on internet? lol…pcars is a real simulation as wrestling is a real fight.. Bell style

 Well, I am one of them…so you can put those comments away now.  It isn’t the best, yet, but I will continue to follow until it is released.  If it is as good as they say, I will drive.  If not, I will move on.  Right now I am just enjoying the week to week changes and feel that I am getting what I expected as a product early in development.  Nobody knows exactly how it will turn out…all the haters that are positive it will fail are doing nobody any good.  If they could manage to keep it civil and constructive, we wouldn’t be having these heated ‘discussions’.  Yes, something may not be right; fine, note it and move on.  If they release the final product with one of these ‘flaws’ then I have no concern that you rant about it as they obviously ignored the comments, or it was too big a technical challenge in the constraints they had.

Your comment has been censored by VirtualR…….

Give it a rest, will you? Reading through this topic shows everyone that pretty much everyone is allowed to say what they want, the only postings being moderated are those which contain nothing but personal slander directed at others.

This isn’t Youtube, there’s a set of basic manners everybody should stick to.

”
well, considering how much your milano track is different and worse than the real Monza track, I think you really need something new..a miracle, can I suggest?”

It’s an early incomplete track genius. Not even going to read the rest of that post as I’m scared I’ll see more stupid remarks.
Look at Watkins Glen (Conneticut Hill) and Imola(Bologna) in pCARS, try to knock the accuracy and quality there.

And to think you were the first promoted community member of the project what gratittude you have it’s more like BS nismo. Now I know why you are no longer scorzilla

 Oh dear, of course most data are collected from external sources or from external persons like most other developers need to do. Even if you license a car, the manufacturer often will not give you all explicit datas about the car excepted some CAD-data and a sheet of paper like a car seller will give you. Andy Garton mentioned this at WMD.

So your comment is just nonsense in every meaning.

Nice to see a more balanced discussion on here now.  More and more people starting to realize that the game will be a console hit only.  With no modding and no real PC orientated sim physics and dreadful external replay sounds, what else can you expect?  I hope it changes, I really do but in all honesty, their is no profit in making it exactly what the PC sim racing community really desire. Yes I see the fan boys and investors calling the others haters and troublemakers, but opinion must be allowed to be expressed.  And this is mine.

Hmmm, as a known pCARS hater, I suspect that as you are overdue for another prod at it, that this post was mistakenly posted here and not in the latest pCARs build thead.  
Would I be correct in that ?

No you wouldn’t be correct. But that is not unusual.

Ok, then you post makes little sense. This title will not be on consoles at all and bad external replay sounds is something you find in pCARS. Oh and you mention investors. Sounds like pCARS to me. But you know best :)

It’s pretty simple, really. They have the experience, the community support, and the desire to make the best sim they possibly can. You can see it’s being worked on constantly.

I don’t understand why people drone on and on about “feel” and “realism” when the devs have essentially said, “OK, we understand and agree. We are working on it and it will take several weeks or even months but is our highest priority. Please enjoy all the new tracks and content while we work.” This cycle repeats with every news post and every Friday release.

Give them time and then judge them on their final product.

On a side note, I think no one but SMS will ever develop a sim this way. SimBin could be sitting on some pretty crappy code right now with GTR3 but because they don’t let the community help they don’t have to justify their WIP.

Haters, that’s all you lot ever cry. This community will be devided by people calling each other names and haters is so low. Childish even.

Seriously ?
After a month you still felt you had to dig this up again ?
You say opinions must be allowed to be expressed (your words) and then you diss people for having an opposing one. You use the word fan boy and then complain at the term haters.

Time for you to stop trolling on here. Follow the posted rules or be gone. I won’t say it again.

I have no more broken any posted rules than those who call others haters. As usual your bias remains quite consistant. Moderation requires fairness and neutrality. The moderators on RaceDepartment show how it is done.

The printed rules are a recent addition and now it is clear for all, including me, what needs to be upheld. Your last post came after the posting of the rules and I can pull you up on a couple of things just with your last post.
The only bias I have here is that I am biased against those who wish nothing more than to flamebait and troll on here. So yes, in that way I am biased. You stick out more than others because we have history and you can’t let it go. This post you made in reply to something I said a month ago only goes to show your desire to stir up an argument. Well I’m not playing your game.

I think considering you are still here despite your history on here, I have been more than reasonable, so be very careful before you criticise my moderation again.
What RaceDepartment do is up to them. This is VirtualR. If you don’t like it, no one is forcing you to hang around.

I’m simply asking you to cool off with me because I’ve pretty much had enough of you and your disrespect. And if you want respect shown to you then earn it by swallowing a little pride and post in a more behaved manner.

I will retract my ‘hater’ comment and refer to you as a pCARS critic instead. Better ?

Yes much better. You wouldn’t want to fall into the same “haters” bracket as Ian Bell did on RD. :) By the way, I have done nothing wrong and broke no rules, unlike some others here who regularly call names against your posting rules. As for me posting on something a month ago, easily explained. I am in the military and not always near a computer.
Have a nice day.

…Simraceway gona buy u all up ;) ….silently growing that giant …watch out its comming…this all is marketing trick – face… this commentating = opinions ,ohh my i need attention to know how good or bad i am…. do ur job good thats the best advertisement …leave the speak and dont spoil energy on other things…my 2 cents